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Fun with Hitchens


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#81 TVCasualty

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 09:57 PM


As for people having beliefs based on misinformation ? It happens all the time. Is that a very meaningful aspect of this particular debate? I don't see that. Ymmv.

 

It probably is to women in Texas who need an abortion but can't afford to travel to a more modern and civilized part of the country.

 

Another point that ought to be mentioned is that the debate about the legal status of abortion is really about access to safe abortions, not abortion itself since that's always been a thing whether it's been legal or not and always will be. Making it legal makes it exponentially safer, which seems to me to be a genuine pro-life position.

 

When we all have to start paying for the wave of unwanted children and the associated social problems that will result (increased crime, poverty, more unwanted children, etc.) then we'll all care a lot about this issue even if we're men who are beyond the age of childbearing.



#82 August West

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Posted 13 September 2021 - 10:04 PM

All points worth considering and, imo, not detracting from the complexity suggested that lies beyond, "my body my choice".

 

I suspect, if more people were deeply honest, we're already paying for "unwanted children" in myriad ways. Would federal bans on abortions increase this? Possibly. How much? I have no idea.

 

Missed this:

 

 

 

It's my understanding that most states where abortion is legal allow it for up to 24 months. Some apparently 20-22. If that's true, in most states where abortion is legal, they allow the termination of a fetus who may (and has) survived. Sounds complex. 

 

I'm going to have to agree with you, August, after 24 months I'm pretty sure it would be called a homicide...   :wink:

 

(I assume you meant weeks?)

 

 

Ha! Good catch. What a bummer of a gestation period that would be.

 


Edited by August West, 13 September 2021 - 10:08 PM.

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#83 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 14 September 2021 - 02:45 PM

 

 

 

I believe there is. Her body, her choice. That was easy.

 

Hence my support for legislation.

 

I find that term to be a bit of a conversation stopper, and maybe that is what is was designed to do

 

You don't have to have unyielding support for something while still believing others have a right to access it.

 

 

Why do we need more  legislation?   The only new laws that I've seen proposed are restricting rights, not giving them.  IMHO more laws are not the answer.  

 

The only reason this has become the issue it is, is because of legislation.  Abortion wasn't illegal until a law made it so.   The government shouldn't be in the business of forcing a woman to carry an unwanted child. 

 

 

Well you can usually trap me pretty easily with a reducing laws argument

 

For the record I would agree with that statement, all I am trying to say is I can hear some of the concerns on the other side of the argument and they don't always sound crazy. Is it enough to change laws, yeah I would say no, more legislation at this point seems overboard. The arguments made for or against usually seem to quote the extreme ends of things and I think we know they are not as common as arguments make them seem.

 

 

 

 

It's the Grodain knot of politics. It boils down to whether one thinks of it as "aborting a fetus". Or, "killing an unborn child".

 

This truly is the crux of the argument, where one draws that line. Personally I have to admit it sounds a little bit like killing babies, or at the least, its not not killing babies. Its confusing quite frankly and its not as easy for me to figure that out as some would say. That being said I still support a women's right to have the legal right to make that choice for themselves. At some point we have to admit there is a line drawn in the sand of where that becomes the case. Everyone seems to draw that line at a different point.

 

You know another interesting thing about this discussion is that it is often framed in the context of man versus woman. The assumption is made that all women are automatically pro abortion, I would argue this is false. Likely more women than men would be against abortions if you think about it logically. If dudes were the one's who could get pregnant you could get an abortion with your oil change.

 

My guess is if we collected anecdotes from everyone around abortions, how many times was it the guy who wanted to get one?

 

https://www.lifenews...l-surprise-you/

 

https://news.gallup....nds-gender.aspx

 

https://thehill.com/...o-be-pro-choice


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 14 September 2021 - 03:04 PM.


#84 TVCasualty

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Posted 15 September 2021 - 09:03 AM

I suspect, if more people were deeply honest, we're already paying for "unwanted children" in myriad ways. Would federal bans on abortions increase this? Possibly. How much? I have no idea.

 

Here's one hotly-debated perspective that tends to attract strong reactions from both sides:

 

https://freakonomics...ld-you-believe/



#85 TVCasualty

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Posted 17 September 2021 - 11:05 AM

I should be encouraged to post more memes than words because ...fewer words!

 

 

post-102948-0-72269000-1631894659.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#86 TVCasualty

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 09:24 AM

Shots fired in the culture war (this is epic! Or rather, this is "Epik," lol): https://arstechnica....ers/?comments=1
 

 

Epik has now confirmed that an "unauthorized intrusion" did in fact occur into its systems. The announcement follows last week's incident of hacktivist collective Anonymous leaking 180 GB of data stolen from online service provider Epik. To mock the company's initial response to the data breach claims, Anonymous had altered Epik's official knowledge base, as reported by Ars.

 

Epik is a domain registrar and web services provider known to serve right-wing clients, some of which have been turned down by more mainstream IT providers due to the objectionable and sometimes illicit content hosted by the clients. Epik's clients have included the Texas GOP, Parler, Gab, and 8chan, among others.

 

 

 

War, as they say, is Hell.

 

At least now Hell is starting to manifest among the hypocritical misogynistic wanna-be Nazi retards who actually deserve it.



#87 TVCasualty

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Posted 26 October 2021 - 12:59 PM

The self-righteous are saying the quiet parts out loud again.

 

They're going full Theotard.

 

Never go full Theotard!

 

Some examples:

 

"Shut down government schools and put schools in churches and synagogues."

 

"Pastor Lawrence Bishop of Solid Rock Church understands that nowhere in the Constitution do we read about separation of church & state. Every time the left attacks us we will schedule more and more rallies at churches."

 

Bonus delusional idiocy (seems related to the other stuff): "Donald Trump is my President and Warren County is Mandel Country!"

 

-Former Rep, political hack and current Treasurer of Ohio Josh Mandel (running for Senate)

 

 

 

The irony of this growing insanity is that if the retro-superstitious reactionary idiots get their way they'll destroy their own quality of life along with everyone else's because a modern, technologically-advanced civilization cannot endure very long if it's being managed by people who have lost their grip on reality but charge on ahead anyway with total confidence in themselves.

 

 

Is Satanism a de facto sect of Xtianity? Seems like it should be considered such since Satan was one of the characters in the book. Not that it matters; if any imaginary-friend schools are legit then ALL imaginary-friend schools are legit.

 

prayerinschool.jpg

 

 



#88 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 26 October 2021 - 05:55 PM

Seems like the old pendulum is doing its thing, something as groups we need to consider, the danger of blow back or backlash before we decide to force folk into whatever position we deem best.  And so the new laws triggered hacking backlash and that will in turn trigger more anger from the religious right emboldening them to dig in the trenches.

 

Tell em Gandhi

 

 

On a ridiculous side note

 

I think I got distracted and came back to the last post and read it thinking to myself.

 

What is this supposed to be a tropic thunder based joked with a play on words about Theo from the Cosby show?  I can't recall hearing a Theo reference in a long time, is this a new thing?..

 

giggling to myself in confusion

 

I was like, hmm don't really remember if Theo was that big of a moron, I do clearly seem to remember Bill yelling his name all the time. THEOooooo

Remembered what thread I was in and face palm

 

There's something you guys probably don't know about me, I smoke weed   :weedpoke:


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 26 October 2021 - 06:03 PM.


#89 TVCasualty

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Posted 15 December 2021 - 01:43 PM

Hitchens died 10 years ago today.

 

He is sorely missed by people who think about stuff.

 

Since he died 10 years ago, he made these comments before then. It would be fascinating to hear his take on where these things stand now:

 

hitch.jpg

 

 


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#90 Cuboid

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Posted 15 December 2021 - 02:36 PM

Couldn't agree more. Identity Politics is such a destructive distraction from the real issues.
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#91 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 April 2022 - 09:18 AM

"Religion poisons everything." -Christopher Hitchens

 

Can you hear him now? Got it yet? Need more?

 

Oklahoma just took the lead in the race back to the Dark Ages, not to be outdone by Tennessee's effort to do the same.

 

For the pious, "progress" seems to involve constructing legal frameworks for covering up a lot of sexual abuse, rape, and child molestation.

 

Someone pointed out that according to Oklahoma's new law (if signed by the GOP Gov), it's written such that rapists can now basically choose the mother of their next child. If they have a daughter they can move to Tennessee and she can marry a rapey church elder after he knocks her up, just like Jesus intended!

 

This explains a lot about the source of much of this darkness, I think:

 

There is no culture of child abuse and grooming more insidious than conservative religion. From Roy Moore to Dennis Hastert to Matt Gaetz to the priest scandal, these men have always predated on children as their prerogative of power. /4

 

Like the Quiverfull Duggars & FLDS, the whole idea is to make women and girls the property of powerful older men and their sons, forcing them to have babies as early as possible in direct transfer of ownership from their fathers. Boys are frequent victims of sexual hazing. /5
 
Conservative small towns and Friday Night Lights cultures are rife with sexual abuse of children and they know it. It's just the "right" kind, in service of the patriarchal power structures. And it's kept quiet under the rug, repented for on Sunday and recommitted on Monday. /6
 
It's no accident that teen pregnancy is far lower in liberal counties and states than conservative ones. Kids in liberal communities have better outcomes and suffer less abuse. The institutionalized grooming is almost entirely on the Religious Right. And they know it. /7
 
But they play up this angle because it preys on their fears, because they know their kids despise their bigoted value systems, because they project the evils in their own families & communities, and because it justifies their intended policies of bloodlust against liberals. /8
 
And make no mistake: they will absolutely carry out pogroms based on projected QAnon libels as far as they are allowed when in power. And at the hands of Trump, a man credibly accused of raping a 14-year-old and going into teen locker rooms to see them naked. It's no accident. /9
 
As they might say, it's all Part of the Plan. /end
 

 

CODA: a lot of people have asked about the religious communities angle. So let me be more explicit about the cycle of abuse, silence, false redemption and projection in conservative religious communities: /1
 
Men are given full authority over their wives and children, and religious leaders over their flocks. They are presumed to have highest moral authority under God, and their actions are rarely scrutinized.

Many of these men use their authority to abuse kids. /2
 
Sometimes, as with child marriage, this is all socially sanctioned in direct patriarchal transfer of girls or abusive hazing rituals of teen boys.
But often it's not. It's hidden abuse, quiet and under table. Except usually these are *open secrets.*
The immediate families protect the uncle, the pastor, grandfather, whoever. They blame the child for "tempting" the Good Man. They blame Satan.
The child is forced into a cone of silence to protect the Family or Community or Church. This often leads to suicide or other harm. /4
 
The abuser, meanwhile, is offered an endless cycle of atonement & redemption through prayer--reinforcing the social order and allowing them to abuse again, only to be redeemed and "forgiven" again endlessly. This enabling is perceived as holy permanent struggle against Satan./5
 
This part in particular connects some interesting dots (emphasis mine):
 
***The absence of this cycle of shame and atonement in liberal cultures, along with open acceptance of non-normative sexualities and embrace of consent as defining moral line, terrifies conservatives and comes off to them as anarchy. /6
 
They assume that liberals must be shamelessly abusing kids all the time without sanction, since all of *them* know a dark secret in their communities and liberals apparently have no rules!***

Except we *do* have rules--rules based on consent and accountability. /7
 
We don't abuse kids institutionally the way religious conservatives do because we don't trust patriarchal men with that sort of power, we don't blame the victims (or Satan) when abusers abuse, and we hold them accountable publicly to society--not secretly to a convenient God. /8
 
So conservatives freak out in moral panics over the fake conspiracy Satanism they imagine happening in liberal communities without their toxic cycle of patriarchal "redemption," while putting cones of silence and victim-shaming around the abuses right under their own noses. /end
 
In the most evil cases, the reactionaries simply want teen girls to marry rich old men as in The Olden Days, & to kill gay people or force them into the closet while falsely accusing them of pedophilia.

None of this is an accident. It is an old story, just as QAnon is old libel.
 
For those asking for documentation? Seriously, just google it. There's a wealth of it.

 


Edited by TVCasualty, 06 April 2022 - 09:21 AM.


#92 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 06 April 2022 - 05:09 PM

Sorry I must have missed that one are they restricting abortion laws again in regards to Okl and Ten?

 

There is a certain structure that allows and or perpetuates rape in culture. Religion is one of them but watching women go through the same shit in the military tends to lead one towards more Male oriented cultures as the root cause. Would that then include religion based on their usual oppression of women? I am not familiar with religion in India but I do know they have some issues with Rape in certain area's and it is a culture that tries to convince the women to stay silent for their "protection"

 

One comment about those points above is they are certainly biased. One could say it is a harsh way to describe people with nuclear family oriented values. We all come from different places so maybe religion is a bigger thing and has more effect on communities in certain parts of the States where one would tend to see more extreme behavior.... I am thinking about those holy ghost speaking in tongues folk right now. 

 

Without much success I have been trying to get away from the left right game because after a while it starts to look like madness. Both sides seem totally insane pushing their ideologies and desperately working overtime to try to embarrass one another. What ever happened to trying to find common ground and coming to a compromise? We have this fucking strange thing in politics where we sit and listen to our side tell us how the other side thinks and feels, heavy speculation ensues. I tend to believe that if one wanted to know why folk became obsessed with that whole liberals are pedophiles thing asking a few that held those beliefs would probably be a more constructive exercise.

 

My guess is plenty of it has to do with lack of trust and resulting suspicion. It seems like most stories that paint the other in a distasteful lights often lack any serious investigation or inquiry because the consumers want to believe its true.

 

I have pretty hard right conservative (non religious) friends that still refuse to give in on that comet ping pong thing and it drives me nuts. They have no argument just plenty of, "I don't know man" It is a great example of once an idea is rooted in someone's mind it acts like a weed that is difficult to remove :deadhorse:  


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 06 April 2022 - 05:14 PM.


#93 TVCasualty

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 01:39 PM

Sorry I must have missed that one are they restricting abortion laws again in regards to Okl and Ten?

 

OK essentially banned abortion completely (from conception). They are counting on the illegitimate Supreme Court throwing out Roe in June.

 

TN is a signature away from legalizing child marriage.

 

Convicted rapists and pedophiles are suddenly (meaning after living decades as men) declaring themselves to be "women" at an increasing rate and are being sent to actual-women's prisons, etc. (what could possibly go wrong?).

 

Connecting all the current dots that are popping up all over the place (the above is just a brief summary of a few) is painting a very dark and perverse picture of where things are headed (Dark Age v2.0) and religion plays a primary role in propagating it.

 

 

FWIW, to me the concept of "perverse," "perversion," and "pervert" are all a function of a lack of consent in the context of a transgression of personal boundaries, whether explicit or implicit (an example of an implicit boundary would be children not being able to give consent by virtue of their being children/minors, regardless of what the children themselves might say). Others might have different interpretations of those words so I wanted to be clear on that point.

 

 

people with nuclear family oriented values

 

 

The concept of the "nuclear family" is an American propaganda construct created in the 1950's to help get women out of the factories and back into the kitchen after WWII. That's a common sociological conclusion, anyway.

 

It's a compelling explanation for how American culture went so quickly from telling women "You Can Do It!" when it came to working in heavy industry during the war to depicting them happily doing housework in high heels and pearls in eager anticipation of their husband's return from work to support HIS family in trite TV shows like Leave it to Beaver (etc.).


Edited by TVCasualty, 07 April 2022 - 01:39 PM.

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#94 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 02:46 PM

God dammit common ground shrinking up again. I thought that even to the most staunch of pro life people the rape baby was a hard argument to support  but I guess not. 

 

That same sex marriage shit is ridiculous and hearing people cry about it sure starts to crank up my old Liberal protector mechanism. The list of terrible arguments would be hilarious if they weren't so insulting, from the unfounded claims that it has somehow damaged the nuclear family dream, to the idea that being attracted to the same sex is a choice and it is purposefully being thrown in your face to freak out some squares. I guess we can add promoting pedophilia as another ridiculous avenue of thought in the war on gay people.



#95 Juthro

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 03:15 PM

Yeah, I've got to say I'm not likely to find much, if any common ground with people that think like this guy.  This is the face of the 'pro life' crowd.  https://www.mediamat...verted-comments

 

post-136504-0-48528600-1649362480.jpg

tucker.jpg


Edited by Juthro, 07 April 2022 - 03:19 PM.


#96 shiftingshadows

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 03:24 PM

Many children never want to grow up (I think "Peter Pan" (the book) was partly about this).

Why? Partly because they see what gown ups are like. Then we grow up (to some degree) and forget.

As a result we have expectations, of what the world could be like that are way too high.

Seems to me some artists retain the ability to se 'humanity' clearly.

 

388 CADMUS.jpg


Edited by shiftingshadows, 07 April 2022 - 03:48 PM.


#97 shiftingshadows

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 03:37 PM

Many of the great Nations, of Western Europe, were empires not long ago,

and engaged in horrible wars, genocide, slavery and torture, from about the

time of Christopher Columbus up until India became free in 1947 & the "Belgian" Congo became free in 1960!

Or about 500 years of unmitigated brutality.

The USA did the same to the buffalo and "American Indians".

Then we had 2 World Wars, etc. etc.

 

In the light of this I would say, the painting above lets Homo Sapiens, 'off the hook', much too easily.

How can one realistically expect much from 'modern humans'?

 

IMO Homo Sapiens wasn't much different from other animals (morally speaking), as long as 'Nature',

held us in check during the hunter gatherer stage. But we never evolved self regulation in a meaningful

sense, and so once nature was 'escaped' with agriculture, more tools, and larger societies, all hope was lost.

Its similar to lung cancer, some diseases just take decades, or in this case centuries (perhaps a 100), to fully

metastasize.


Edited by shiftingshadows, 07 April 2022 - 03:52 PM.


#98 shiftingshadows

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Posted 07 April 2022 - 04:02 PM

We are biologically speaking quite close to Chimpanzees. Whereas Bonobos & Gorillas

 

are relatively peaceful, Chimpanzees are not. They regularly fight with one another,

 

and organize hunting parties/border patrols to kill individuals belonging to neighboring bands,

 

to the point of eventual genocide.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=richard+wrangham+demonic+males

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=richard+wrangham


Edited by shiftingshadows, 07 April 2022 - 04:03 PM.


#99 TVCasualty

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Posted 08 April 2022 - 11:00 AM

God dammit common ground shrinking up again. I thought that even to the most staunch of pro life people the rape baby was a hard argument to support  but I guess not. 

 

 

No, the anti-women's bodily autonomy assholes take whatever they can get, then they come back for more. If they can get it all, they'll take it.

 

A large proportion of them are batshit crazy, of course: Police find 5 fetuses inside D.C. home of self-proclaimed "anti-abortion activist"

 

Having law and policy driven by lunatics like that is probably not ideal. And I guess we're about to find out exactly why that is since we even got 'em in the Supreme Court now.

 

Since women and girls make up 51% of the population then the potential to reverse this descent into reactionary, delusional madness is high, so we're not quite all the way into Dark Age v2.0 quite yet but we're getting way too close for comfort.

 

I used to catch a lot of criticism for my often impolite phrasing of my anti-religious commentary (here and elsewhere). But all I've ever done is post words and advocate for freedom of choice. Words are just words, however strident. And at this point I'm thinking that I was actually too polite and not strident enough. WAY too polite, considering the stakes.

 

Now that anyone with half a brain (who cares enough to look) can see how depraved and backwards the self-righteous really are  my hope is that women (and girls!) being forced to gestate rape-babies and underage girls to marry dirty old men ("dirty old men" by definition of wanting to marry a child ffs) will snap enough sane and rational people the fuck out of this depraved insanity to put a stop to it once and for all. It's not likely, but it would be nice.



#100 shiftingshadows

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Posted 08 April 2022 - 01:00 PM

combined w other post


Edited by shiftingshadows, 08 April 2022 - 01:34 PM.





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