27 replies to this topic

[Alder Logs]

Since nothing has been written in the Cloud Corner since May of 2017, I want to bring up that lately, on the late night radio I have been listening to, where I get my only MSM (mainstream media) in the form of CBS Radio News at the top of the hour, where their opening line is, "real news from real reporters" or something close to that: Alert! Alert! People who are vaping are dying! 

 

The reports, over the past few nights now are saying that five people have died while vaping in five states.  I think the CDC is even involved.  Why does my cynical mind think immediately that the tobacco industry is stirring  this up?

 

I don't vape or smoke anything, so I don't have a personal dog in this fight.  Something just seems to stink here.  Who benefits except the cigarette companies? 

[Misfit]

This is nothing new. I worked in the industry for some time.


“I’d rather have nothing than have a lie”

[TVCasualty]

I've read one report that the FDA determined it was probably vitamin-E acetate found in unregulated THC vape pens.

 

So nothing to do with e-cig type vaping, or the Juuls.

[Myc]

That's what I saw too TVC. Folks were making "bootleg" vape juice from oils which were not intended to be vaped.

 

Like me stepping out into the garage and using old motor oil as a carrier to dissolve my cannabis wax supply...........what could go wrong? After all, oil dissolves into oil right? So I can use motor oil, cooking oil, or any other "oily" substance I can lay my hands on right ???  "Cause Ima organic kemist who studied on the interwebs.

 

I put it this way:

If tobacco had been attacked like this while I was still a youth - I might never have tried cigarettes or tobacco.

But in our age of disinformation - all I have to do is cast doubt without presenting any real evidence or performing any type of investigation. Pizzagate motherfuckers! Remember pizzagate? Let's take up torches and pitch-forks "cause that solution always works out for the best. The race toward justice is dizzying but I have all of the evidence that I need.

Five or six dead from vaping versus tens of thousands dead (and dying) from tobacco.......... I would say that this vaping thing is likely a serious issue. Think of those poor five or six unsuspecting users of vape. This has got to end.

I'm off to have a cigarette.

[TVCasualty]

These recent deaths are also 100% the fault of the government for continuing to keep it illegal at the Federal level, which is the only reason why it's still illegal in some States, which is the only reason there's a black market in knockoff vape pens at all.

 

Where it is legal to buy and sell vape pens it's real hard to make any profit selling knock-offs (if not impossible) by virtue of the cost of the oil, and where they are legal the pens do not contain any carrier solvents like PG, PEG, or any random and potentially-deadly shit some asshole cooked up in his kitchen. The fact that the tainted pens contained something other than live resin or CO2 oil suggests to me that someone was diluting product diverted from a State where it's legal so as to make it profitable for the dealer (which strongly supports my point about the law being the real source of the problem).

[BleauByU]

If I had to guess.... Someone infused coconut oil (Vitamin E) with THC.  They then loaded cartridges and sold them.   

[pharmer]

Most definitely under attack in Michigan. Last week the governor of the state used an executive order banning the sales and use to anyone, any age, for "60 days"

 

how's that for police state? legalize it one week, illegalize it the next

 

curiously no ban on known cancer causing rolled tobacco.

 

one wonders if the taxing arrangement isn't satisfactory

[Alder Logs]

I have almost quit disc golfing on our course because of so many groups who come here and because of my COPD being so highly reactive to even the slightest whiff of cigarette smoke, there being so many more smokers now than a few years ago, from what I see among younger people these days.  The cigarette companies must be doing quite well, what with the prices they get now.  I have no issues with nicotine vapers in any group I golf with, as these pens do not set off the reaction in my bronchials and throat that cigarettes do.  BTW, I attribute my COPD to my history of cigarette smoking when I was younger.  Something there maybe for today's smokers to look forward to.

Edited by Alder Logs, 10 September 2019 - 01:17 PM.

[Juthro]

I find it curious that in a relatively short period of time that so many cases have happened over such a large geographical area.  To my way of thinking that tends to discount the actions of a single, or even a small group of, grifters that are bootlegging poisonous snake oil. 

 

Vaping has been around for quite some time now, and this problem seems very recent in its appearance.

 

[pharmer]

I think the lions' share of the price of cigarettes these days is taxes going to states and the feds

 

no doubt the vile cancer vendors are doing well

 

but them taxes ain't going to pay themselves

 

Alder, you're saying even vaping by others in the great outdoors is irritating the COPD? Or regular rolled cigarettes? I hate being around smokers but vape-ers strike me as being benign if not considerate but a little odd.

Edited by pharmer, 10 September 2019 - 01:30 PM.

[Myc]

I find it curious that in a relatively short period of time that so many cases have happened over such a large geographical area.  To my way of thinking that tends to discount the actions of a single, or even a small group of, grifters that are bootlegging poisonous snake oil. 

 

Vaping has been around for quite some time now, and this problem seems very recent in its appearance.

In wondered at the same thing.

The internet has changed epidemiology in this way:

What if there is an erroneous article out there being followed by folks? Said another way, maybe there's a "tek" out there detailing how to dilute or dissolve cannabis products which names coconut oil specifically. Take for example this discussion from the following article here on 'Topia:

https://mycotopia.ne...s/#entry1397094

We've been touching upon this subject for some time now but haven't yet seen any complications.

 

And I'm gong to second the sentiment of WTF??!!

The state can arbitrarily ban the sale of any product it deems as unfit for consumption? With all of the empirical evidence pointing to tobacco being a cancer contributor, I see where an outright-ban would be in order. Most pharmaceuticals would land on this list too. Look at all of the tort lawsuits over poisonous and deadly medication - yet medicine still sells with impunity. But then, I've never accused common sense as having had anything to do with legislation.

[mushit]

To see where this is coming from, just follow the money.

Tobacco and pharm companies pay off the legislators.

[TVCasualty]

There are two separate issues/stories in this thread: The fatalities from bad THC cartridges and the concerns about kids vaping flavored e-juices that contain nicotine (or their use of Juul pods).

 

The stuff that Michigan banned is the e-cig nicotine juices, which is absurd because if it's the flavors that entice the kids then by that logic liquor stores should only sell pure grain alcohol. Adults have taste buds and like pleasant flavors too, after all.

 

But the e-cig (nicotine version) vape trend has gotten out of hand in the sense that rather than being a way for smokers to quit it's become a thing unto itself (an end rather than a means) and since the kids getting into it don't understand how addiction works yet they're getting far MORE addicted to vaping that they ever could have been to tobacco products thanks to being able to customize the strength of the juice (in some cases) and to vape nearly constantly (no need to "step outside" and light up; you can take your hits on the fly all day long, which doesn't work with cigarettes).

 

 

Some of the kids are showing symptoms of serious drug addiction normally only seen among cocaine/opioid addicts. This is a tough problem since I am certainly no advocate for any "Nanny State" impositions on personal freedom, but marketing to people (and especially kids) in order to get them addicted to something they didn't necessarily understand the risks of using is arguably restricting the freedom of those who become addicted so at some level it's an insoluble conflict.

 

At this point I think the Michigan ban is stupid and will prove ineffective, but the problem definitely needs to be addressed somehow since it's getting so bad that we'll probably start to see people starting to smoke cigarettes in order to begin tapering off their extreme e-juice addictions (and I am not joking).

Edited by TVCasualty, 10 September 2019 - 03:04 PM.

[mushit]

Very true, TV.

Addiction has been a marketing tactic for years.

Back in the late 1800's, Coca Cola had various amounts of cocaine in it.  When cocaine became illegal, they substituted it with caffeine.  Keep the people addicted and they will buy it.

Same goes with tobacco, opioids, alcohol, sugar, etc.....

To make it illegal would be taking money out of the pockets of the 1%'ers and leaving it in the pockets of the poor.

And we wouldn't need the billions of dollars going into the health system.

We wouldn't want that, would we?

 

(Edit for punctuation)

Edited by mushit, 10 September 2019 - 03:15 PM.

[TVCasualty]

I would like to try a 100% original Coca-Cola just to see exactly how 'refreshing' they really were, lol.

[Alder Logs]

No, there are at least three issues here, one more being the mainstream media pounding this home, just now.  Is CBS Radio News the only place this is being parroted?  Do I put on the conspiracy theorist hat, or the coincidence theorist hat? 

[Myc]

Addressing only the issue of e-juice - flavored nicotine fluid:

 

I watched a pretty decently crafted study on Netflix which did its best to cover all of the angles.

One of the test groups in the study was composed of persons who had never vaped or used nicotine in any way. The individuals from this group were asked to "take-on" vaping as a new hobby. The findings were that once the study was complete, the group was asked to cease vaping entirely. It is my understanding that all of the members of that group were able to cease vaping without experiencing withdrawal. ??? Not the actions of a hopelessly addicted user.

 

Maybe I have my facts wrong or remember them in a biased way. And I welcome any accurate studies which may offer more evidence.

 

While I don't advocate to just everyone.......I did get my dad to switch over from cigarettes. His COPD is a lot less noticeable and he hacks and wheezes less. But when he passes, I'm sure his 60 years of cigarette smoking will not be taken into account. Vaping will likely be determined to have been the cause of his demise. Maybe my family will blame me personally. Now that you all know my evil plan........I'll have to get all of you vaping too - because I have so much to gain personally from all of this (?).

[TVCasualty]

I've seen both stories being mentioned in various news sources recently, so it's not just CBS.

 

I don't think this is a concerted effort to ban e-cigs or vaping (the nicotine version, I mean) since Big Tobacco is already heavily invested in the vape industry. But some investment advisors are advising people to buy tobacco stocks now thanks to all these calls to regulate or ban vaping, which nicely illustrates the inherent Sociopathy of the markets (carcinogenic addictions will be coming back! Cash in while you can!!), and Capitalism in general but I digress...).

 

Now I haven't been able to tell if or how much Big Tobacco has invested in Juul, so recent media-circus events focused on that company might be Big Tobacco destroying the other vape companies that are competing with theirs, like Juul.

 

Tobacco got reamed for marketing to children, so they are very aware of how the public views such things and would be in a position to use what they leaned to their advantage, such as by tobacco execs suggesting to regulators that regulators use the same tactics against Juul that they used against tobacco companies (sort of a "hey, this is how you kicked our ass, so try it on them!").

 

And thanks to Big Tobacco's prior experience with this kind of PR shitstorm, they'll know how to position themselves to take over the marketing of addiction to children while maintaining plausible deniability once they get Juul out of the way.

[TVCasualty]

Addressing only the issue of e-juice - flavored nicotine fluid:

 

I watched a pretty decently crafted study on Netflix which did its best to cover all of the angles.

One of the test groups in the study was composed of persons who had never vaped or used nicotine in any way. The individuals from this group were asked to "take-on" vaping as a new hobby. The findings were that once the study was complete, the group was asked to cease vaping entirely. It is my understanding that all of the members of that group were able to cease vaping without experiencing withdrawal. ??? Not the actions of a hopelessly addicted user.

 

 

Did they mention the strength of the juice used for that study in terms of nicotine content? That's the key factor in its addictive potential, and some people are vaping 24mg/mL, 36mg, and even occasionally higher levels of nicotine, which I thought was insane.

 

 

 

Note: For those who don't know, a 12mg juice blend is roughly equivalent to the strength of a typical cigarette, puff for puff. One Juul pod is equivalent to a pack of cigs, but the numbers don't add up exactly because of other factors like smoke being more efficient in transferring nicotine than the larger vapor droplets of a vape.

 

 

 

People on Reddit are bragging about how many of these they go through. They post memes making fun of the apparently-serious nic-fits and borderline-panic they experience when they misplace their Juul or need to charge it.

 

Each of those square things is like a pack of smokes. But at least with cigarettes the trash is considerably less and only contains plastic in the cellophane the cig packs are wrapped in, unlike this shit:

 

 

I suspect this particular individual also has an issue with amphetamines/Adderall, lol.

[Myc]

I guess I'll buy that theory - using mega-doses of nicotine driving addictive use of the product.

 

My story runs opposite.

When I switched to vape - I was smoking cigarettes and chewing oral snuff. I went around with a chew in my mouth between meals at all times. I smoked while chewing between jobs sometimes. So talk about hopelessly addicted. Nothing like a lip-full of chew with coffee while waiting for the sun to rise. Top that off with a cigarette and you've got yourself a nice, working buzz to start the day. Nicotine craving would awaken me every morning like clockwork. Now, I sleep in.

I started with a nicotine level of 18mg/mL. One year later, I have titrated myself back to 3mg/mL. My intent is to use this last batch I bought and quit when it runs out.

Dad has come down from 24mg/mL on Father's Day this year (when I bought him the mod and setup) - to 12mg/mL. He seeks to titrate off and quit just like my plan. His own personal observations show that he "vapes" a lot less than he ever smoked. My mom (who is not a smoker and hates it) is dubiously optimistic after watching him struggle all these years with the love/hate relationship of tobacco. She simply cannot believe that he has not had a puff from a cig since Father's Day.

On the other hand, my girlfriend (who turned me onto this) confesses that she has used her mod for some 7 years now. (I guess she'll be dropping dead soon.) She confesses also to having no immediate plans to quit - so I guess she's hooked. But to be fair, she started off as a smoker in the first place.

 

Just offering what I know and trying to be better informed.

Edited by Myc, 10 September 2019 - 04:51 PM.