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Almost all of our memories are false in some detail


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#1 flashingrooster

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 10:35 PM

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I love learning about the human mind

 

 I remember reading somewhere that dejavu could be explained as your mind sort of live streaming a memory. Its a trippy though, a sort of computer glitch in the mind. 

 

 

The more they learn about our memories is funny to learn how fallible they really are.

 

A friend of mine insisted on telling me a few years later a story about golfing. He supposedly threw a club under a bench and it snapped in half. I laughed and argued that I had thrown the club and broke it, what are you talking about? We had to call a third friend who was there to convince my fried it was not actually him. He was blown away by it, oh man I have been telling that story for a year or so. It was a really weird feeling

 

I think we experience false memories in many small details. Who could really remember small details. Our brains sort of just fills in what it considers unnecessary information to create a memory scene. So when people are asked to recall these small details they are very often unreliable. 

 

Another side to this is eye witness accounts are losing credibility as well. The more dna evidence comes out and exonerates people Apparently there are plenty that were sent to prison on eye witness account only. No other solid evidence 

 

One person described our memories as an ice cube of sorts. The more you think about them the softer and more malleable they become

 

 


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#2 TVCasualty

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:51 AM

Some of the smartest and most observant people around experience this issue.

 

[Direct Link]

 

 

The implications are ...interesting.

 

I've read an article where a neurologist studying memory said that when we remember something we're actually remembering the last time we remembered it, and that over time it can act like the game "telephone" where you whisper a phrase to someone who passes it along and so on until it goes around a room full of people and by the end the last person to hear the phrase reports back something completely different from the original.

 

I have no way to asses whether that is true or not, but it sure doesn't feel like it is, though maybe I'm just misremembering my initial reaction.


Edited by TVCasualty, 11 September 2019 - 11:55 AM.

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#3 flashingrooster

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:10 PM

I get a mixture of interest and fear. It sort of shakes your reality to learn your memory is not quite what you think it is. How many events have we adjusted details to sort of suit our view of things. Or to reinforce a powerful memory feeling that accompanied said event

 

When we consider how easily those facts in our memory can be manipulated either intentionally or unintentionally. 

 

It makes me think, what is a memory. We sort of gravitate towards a fact based system when considering memories. To me it seems a memory is more like an emotion or a feeling. 

 

It would explain why music can activate memories from very specific times in our lives. The feeling of the songs sort of triggers our memory earlier than say a factual description of the events

 

This short doc is a far more detailed explanation of some of the points I was addressing

 

https://gem.cbc.ca/m...15a-00fb9922920



#4 TVCasualty

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:20 PM

This is why writing stuff down can be very helpful.

 

I do that with psychedelic experiences that have been especially meaningful (among other things), so when I relate those experiences at places like this, even if it's many years after the events took place (like my posts about my first trip when I was 17), I'm relaying what I wrote about it at the time. Since I refresh my memory every time I read things I've written in the past I can't tell how accurate my memory of such things would have been had I not written them down but in some cases the events were so intense and transformative that I cannot imagine not remembering them as they happened. But that doesn't mean it's not possible.

 

I guess the only thing I can be truly certain of is that "certainty" is either a function of cognitive dissonance or projection/wishful thinking.


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#5 flashingrooster

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 01:03 PM

I suppose the trick to that is not producing too much content that it makes it impossible to revisit. For instance pictures, I am not a fan of posing and being in pictures. Yet every time I travel places, I wish I had more pictures to refresh the memory. There is certainly a a happy medium. Others take so many pictures, the amount of time it would take to look at every picture for say five or six seconds. Starts to equate to years of your life. 

 

Any sort of serious person has to write things down to be efficient in my opinion. I would be a mess without notes to remind me of things. I was thinking of starting a dream journal. Mayhap I should add trips to that list

 

What do they say, only confident idiots or religious people are certain 



#6 flashingrooster

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 01:17 PM

That cognitive dissonance is pretty trippy stuff when it comes to trying to grapple with consciousness. I got pretty deep into it when watching West world. It has been some time since. I find it fascinating but its at the edge of my grasp. Going to have to do some more reading this afternoon 



#7 flashingrooster

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 04:29 PM

People at work start talking about that Mandela effect, in particular the multiverse angle. Thinking something mystical was going on. It always seemed silly to me after learning how susceptible to influence our weak memories are. Just by the way a person asks you a question they can produce a sort of desired result. You see it in magic and psychics all the time



#8 darci

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Posted 28 September 2019 - 05:23 PM

Talking about false memories...

 

My mother makes up shit at least 80% of the time she has a conversation, even with me.

 

She will tell me things that I know are 100% wrong, straight to my face, and then get mad at me if I call her out on it... because I was there!

 

Problem is that we've had so many arguments like this I would bet I'm probably crazy from it by now, and making up shit of my own.

 

Good thing is I have no one to tell my stories to... except you guys  :biggrin: 

 

By the way, I was once traveling in the woods and saw a strange light in the sky.  It was around that time that I saw a large, hairy, hulking creature move in the distance...

 

...

 

... and they told me I was the Messiah ...

 

... 40,000 year history of civilization ...

 

... reincarnated ...

 

... and that's where babies come from.  True story.

 

~ Darci


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#9 flashingrooster

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 10:32 AM

I had a friend who was a compulsive liar. We did not realize the extent until we graduated and another friend met up with him on a job site years later. He had everyone convinced on site of all this crazy shit. Guy played football in high school, he was mediocre. However he had everyone on that job site convinced he was going pro playing college football. There are definitely some liberal story tellers out there, likely everyone has at least one in their group of friends. You reminded me of him when you stated you mom gets mad when you call her out. Same situation with this guy

 

Now is that from poor memory so they just have to clumsily fill in the details of stories. Or just a desire to try to tell an interesting story?


Edited by flashingrooster, 29 September 2019 - 10:35 AM.


#10 TVCasualty

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 10:42 AM

I had a friend who was a compulsive liar. We did not realize the extent until we graduated and another friend met up with him on a job site years later. He had everyone convinced on site of all this crazy shit. Guy played football in high school, he was mediocre. However he had everyone on that job site convinced he was going pro playing college football. There are definitely some liberal story tellers out there, likely everyone has at least one in their group of friends. You reminded me of him when you stated you mom gets mad when you call her out. Same situation with this guy

 

Now is that from poor memory so they just have to clumsily fill in the details of stories. Or just a desire to try to tell an interesting story?

 

 

I've known a few people like that. It's hard to call them "friends," and they were really more like friends of friends, but I got along with them just fine once I understood the drill. I suppose I studied them more than I hung out with them, and always kept them at arm's length.

 

The drill was that most of what they said could be assumed to be untrue, so don't make any decisions or spend any money based on anything they say.

 

One guy in particular fascinating in that regard as he'd lie all the time about everything even if it made him look bad, or made no sense at all. You could call him on it and he'd just keep going without skipping a beat and tough shit for you if you had a problem with it. He got away with some amazing things that normal people would not have even attempted, like claiming he was the nephew of someone famous whose last name he shared to get out of being arrested (which worked, to my amazement and gratitude as I would've otherwise taken a ride with everybody else). The cops had a good "in plain sight" bust (damn door was wide open when they walked up for the noise complaint) but they walked away based only on his commitment to his story, which was total BS. They left the bongs and weed, too (all still very illegal at the time). Granted, he dropped a pretty heavy name for the area, but still...

 

One time I was talking about another friend of mine who had been diagnosed with leukemia and without skipping a beat the compulsive liar says "My cousin has leukemia, too." But his cousin didn't have cancer, assuming he even HAD a cousin; so why the hell would someone say something like that? I learned to do stuff like immediately ask him "So what was her last white cell count?" and if someone he cared about had leukemia he'd know the answer to that (and he didn't).

 

 

 

I bring that up because this thread is starting to make me suspect that there could be some kind of link between lying (and particularly compulsive lying) and the malleable nature of memory (since we lie mostly to ourselves). It might be interesting to see how well compulsive liars remember events vs. people who lie the normal amount (when checked against a video or other arguably-objective record of events).

 

 

 

And is it a bad thing to bask in the glory of false memories, so long as we make them good/positive and can get away with believing them until we die?

 

Is there a difference between "being" one of the most amazing and awesome people to ever live vs. believing that you are? If you could believe that you're the pinnacle of human evolution to an unshakeable degree down to the very core of your being then you'd be arguably delusional but would that matter as far as your own estimation of your life and how well it's going? If it's all an illusion anyway then we might as well create the best illusions for ourselves that we can imagine, right?

 

There'd be no apparent difference between living in a delusion of grandeur and living in actual grandeur, would there? Is there really any difference between the Red Pill and the Blue Pill?

 

Those might also become very relevant questions as technology advances to the point where we will be able to consciously decide to live in an arbitrary abstract construct (i.e. virtual reality) all the time, or experience intentionally-induced states of consciousness on a 24/7 basis thanks to pharmaceutical research and advances in Neurology.


Edited by TVCasualty, 30 September 2019 - 10:42 AM.

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#11 Juthro

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 12:54 PM

I've had co-workers that fit this bill.  In my own mind I categorise them into a 'been there, done it better' category.  It doesn't matter what story is being told, because its old news to them. No matter what the story is, they did it first, did it faster, and/or did it longer.

 

I find I personally get very frustrated with this kind of behaviour.  For whatever reason it seems to always get under my skin, maybe it's my own vanity and ego don't like being challenged, I don't know.  But knowing this, I consciously try to avoid these kind of people for the sake of my own mental being.

 

 

 

 


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#12 Moonless

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 04:19 PM

http://theconversati...ks-on-you-89544

 

I love learning about the human mind

 

 I remember reading somewhere that dejavu could be explained as your mind sort of live streaming a memory. Its a trippy though, a sort of computer glitch in the mind. 

 

 

The more they learn about our memories is funny to learn how fallible they really are.

 

A friend of mine insisted on telling me a few years later a story about golfing. He supposedly threw a club under a bench and it snapped in half. I laughed and argued that I had thrown the club and broke it, what are you talking about? We had to call a third friend who was there to convince my fried it was not actually him. He was blown away by it, oh man I have been telling that story for a year or so. It was a really weird feeling

 

I think we experience false memories in many small details. Who could really remember small details. Our brains sort of just fills in what it considers unnecessary information to create a memory scene. So when people are asked to recall these small details they are very often unreliable. 

 

Another side to this is eye witness accounts are losing credibility as well. The more dna evidence comes out and exonerates people Apparently there are plenty that were sent to prison on eye witness account only. No other solid evidence 

 

One person described our memories as an ice cube of sorts. The more you think about them the softer and more malleable they become

Theres this new Netflix show : The Mind Explained that has an episode about memory, in addition to a nice episode about psychedellics. I also find memory an interesting topic. Currently I am reading about memory in the book: Henri Bergson Matter and Memory. The writing style is of a long winded 1800's Frenchmen so it is very difficult to remember what he is saying. Bergson argued that the recollection of memory is a unconscious act, that we really have no control over how we remember things. Think about it this way, when you forget something that you really need to remember, trying to remember it does little help, only when you forget about it and go about your day might that memory come to you.

When discussing this book with a friend of mine who used to be a cop he said that, the eye witnesses alway have different stories about the crime, and further more when you ask the same witness to come in at a later time, their story almost always changes. He said that in contrary to what people believe, that a person who tells the same story everytime is usually the one who made the shit up.

 

to add to your idea that almost all of our memories are false, well its really the truth! In that book Bergson states that memories are a type of reliving of the experience, that our perception is filled with memories. He states that the faculty of perception starts with data being sensed, then that data is filtered out by the brain and replaced with common memories and thus our perception is very little true data. One way to explain this is through psychedellic use. When we are on low dose LSD we often loose our memories and see things in glorius detail. This is most likely because our brain filter is shutting off and we are noticing for the first time in a very long time the true texture of reality.

 

 

Talking about false memories...

 

My mother makes up shit at least 80% of the time she has a conversation, even with me.

 

She will tell me things that I know are 100% wrong, straight to my face, and then get mad at me if I call her out on it... because I was there!

 

Problem is that we've had so many arguments like this I would bet I'm probably crazy from it by now, and making up shit of my own.

 

Good thing is I have no one to tell my stories to... except you guys  :biggrin:

 

By the way, I was once traveling in the woods and saw a strange light in the sky.  It was around that time that I saw a large, hairy, hulking creature move in the distance...

 

...

 

... and they told me I was the Messiah ...

 

... 40,000 year history of civilization ...

 

... reincarnated ...

 

... and that's where babies come from.  True story.

 

~ Darci

Darci, I was creepin on your thread on nostalgia and it really relates to this thread aswell. I have an older friend who was talking about how his life is entirely taken over with memories of the past that its almost like he is totally living there. He told me about how he has so many memories that he is essentially reliving them every moment because he has done it all before. I think that as we get older and have been through more experience that each time you do something you have done before, the brain relives the experience of doing such action previously lived through. Nostalgia is from reliving in our minds our past memories.

This is the same with PTSD, like nostalgia a trigger event starts a chain reaction of reliving a texperience. I have friend who was raped and their main trigger is seeing an outfit similar to her rapist. When that happens her body literally relives the experience of rape.



#13 ElPirana

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 06:07 PM

I've had co-workers that fit this bill.  In my own mind I categorise them into a 'been there, done it better' category.  It doesn't matter what story is being told, because its old news to them. No matter what the story is, they did it first, did it faster, and/or did it longer.


I know someone like this. After knowing him for many years now I’ve come to realize he’s got a low self esteem/ self image and I just kinda feel bad for him. I’m not even sure he knows that he does it.
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#14 TVCasualty

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 08:24 PM

I've had co-workers that fit this bill.  In my own mind I categorise them into a 'been there, done it better' category.  It doesn't matter what story is being told, because its old news to them. No matter what the story is, they did it first, did it faster, and/or did it longer.

 

I find I personally get very frustrated with this kind of behaviour.  For whatever reason it seems to always get under my skin, maybe it's my own vanity and ego don't like being challenged, I don't know.  But knowing this, I consciously try to avoid these kind of people for the sake of my own mental being.

 

That ain't shit; I've had, like, 50 coworkers who were like that! Maybe a hundred! I'm not sure how many except that it's more than anyone else!!1!


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#15 Juthro

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 09:01 PM

^^ LOL, now that is funny ^^


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#16 darci

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 02:38 AM

I've always wondered how the mind could witness itself changing.

 

It's as if there is a higher layer of consciousness, of awareness which "watches" the layer of activity which we think of as "consciousness."

 

A computer can't "feel" it's programming change.  We can.  We can even modify our hardware "in-flight" and notice the difference.

 

I sometimes follow this train of thought to the conclusion that we have a soul which is experiencing "life" through our bodies, and that this soul is at the highest layer/facet/dimension of our existence in a place without time.


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#17 darci

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 02:42 AM


This is the same with PTSD, like nostalgia a trigger event starts a chain reaction of reliving a texperience. I have friend who was raped and their main trigger is seeing an outfit similar to her rapist. When that happens her body literally relives the experience of rape.

 

 

If I'm in a place where I don't know 2 exits, I can panic.  I've been literally practicing the talent of staying calm in a room with 1 door.  Many of my mushroom trips were intended to do work on this very problem..

 

It's the only thing that has significantly helped, by the way.


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#18 Moonless

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 08:48 AM

 


This is the same with PTSD, like nostalgia a trigger event starts a chain reaction of reliving a texperience. I have friend who was raped and their main trigger is seeing an outfit similar to her rapist. When that happens her body literally relives the experience of rape.

 

 

If I'm in a place where I don't know 2 exits, I can panic.  I've been literally practicing the talent of staying calm in a room with 1 door.  Many of my mushroom trips were intended to do work on this very problem..

 

It's the only thing that has significantly helped, by the way.

 

I often find myself thinking about my actions only after doing them. There is however one way I see we have free will and that is hesitation. Although hesitation bring up stress it is the way that we are able to choose our path. If for instance we can practice our hesitation through mindfullness of our emotions then we can hopefully welcome and become friends with panic even.


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#19 Alder Logs

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 10:12 AM

I've always wondered how the mind could witness itself changing.

 

It's as if there is a higher layer of consciousness, of awareness which "watches" the layer of activity which we think of as "consciousness."

 

The mind owes its existence to what it is that is the witnessing.  Whatever we can call that witnessing principle, isn't it conscious presence?  Isn't it, hasn't it, always been of the scene first?  Out of the experience of perceptions and thought came the idea that we are somehow a thing which is other than our first and eternal knowing being.   We dream we are the mind and senses as something other than where they must draw their powers.  We set up house with a set of memories and projections and think of it as our reality.  Cannot the nameless, timeless witnessing tell us something about our idea of being an identity of separateness? 

 

We, the identified separate being cannot own the source, the One.  All separation is illusory.   Staying as the witnessing, it becomes clear; I was never that.  Identity does not quickly give up, but the witnessing will eventually put it in its place.  In its place, it can still be anything it wants, except real and true.  From the true place of the unidentified seeing/knowing/being, the dreamed reality goes on playing in a time it creates with memories and projections.  We can live as the named, or be the nameless.  The more we become re-familiarized with being, the less we suffer the idea that we are the doings of the mind and body. 

 

Having a mind and a body, but as what?   Separation is the dream that is awakened from.   We are that watching principle. 


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#20 ElPirana

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 11:35 AM

This is the same with PTSD, like nostalgia a trigger event starts a chain reaction of reliving a texperience. I have friend who was raped and their main trigger is seeing an outfit similar to her rapist. When that happens her body literally relives the experience of rape.

 
If I'm in a place where I don't know 2 exits, I can panic.  I've been literally practicing the talent of staying calm in a room with 1 door.  Many of my mushroom trips were intended to do work on this very problem..
 
It's the only thing that has significantly helped, by the way.
I often find myself thinking about my actions only after doing them. There is however one way I see we have free will and that is hesitation. Although hesitation bring up stress it is the way that we are able to choose our path. If for instance we can practice our hesitation through mindfullness of our emotions then we can hopefully welcome and become friends with panic even.
I find that the idea of free will is an illusion. Hesitation is an action, it is a action of waiting. But who decides to act? Where does the decision come from? I watch myself, and actions happen, but I cannot find the origins of the actions or of the thoughts that lead to the actions. After a while I simply notice them happening, watching them rise and fall.

If you put more thought into free will, you might also find that buying into the idea will cause separation and judgement. How can it not?
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