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we must fight the pc police


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#81 swayambhu

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 04:46 AM

TERF is a funny one because most of those being accused of being TERFs are not radical feminists. And to accuse someone of being a radical feminist when they are not is, in my observation, not very far removed (in intent if not style) from calling that person a “feminazi”.
Tbh I think there is a degree of misogyny in the transsexual/gender agenda as presented by “campus liberalism”, ie the appropriation of the female experience by quite literally any man who, on whim, wants to say he is a woman. Which is fascinating to me because the “wokies” have picked a fight with the single largest group of oppressed people history has ever known. Is it a fight they can win? I don’t think so, but we shall see.
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#82 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 07:38 AM

TERF is a funny one because most of those being accused of being TERFs are not radical feminists. And to accuse someone of being a radical feminist when they are not is, in my observation, not very far removed (in intent if not style) from calling that person a “feminazi”.
Tbh I think there is a degree of misogyny in the transsexual/gender agenda as presented by “campus liberalism”, ie the appropriation of the female experience by quite literally any man who, on whim, wants to say he is a woman. Which is fascinating to me because the “wokies” have picked a fight with the single largest group of oppressed people history has ever known. Is it a fight they can win? I don’t think so, but we shall see.

 

It's a tricky one. On the one hand, there's nothing stopping a man from trying to pass as a woman to get into a bathroom to do what bathroom perverts do right now, and many of the men who are busted as bathroom or changing room (etc.) perverts weren't pretending to be women at all. So it's not a problem that will suddenly emerge if trans-women can start using women's bathrooms since it's already a problem. Another concern (but it's one that I rarely hear expressed) is the potential threat posed to trans-men when using a men's public bathroom should they somehow be outed as being transgender.

 

One question I realized I don't know the answer to is if it's actually illegal to use the "wrong" bathroom. I suspect it's not in most cases; it's probably just signs stuck on a door with no actual legal authority behind them. In any case if it's allowed or made legal or whatever to use the bathroom of one's choice then it doesn't seem likely to encourage people to suddenly become bathroom perverts since men with those impulses probably already are.

 

On the other hand, I can also understand JK Rowling's point, which is informed by her experience of being a victim of domestic violence and sexual assault. Oh, and also her extensive experience of being a woman, which makes the attempts to silence her in discussion of trans-women's concerns and safety rather baffling since if trans-women are women then as a woman Rowling can speak for or about them, too.

 

On the third hand, I consider the distinction between biological sex and gender to be real and valid since it seems patently obvious to me that some people born with male sexual anatomy are far more "female" internally and some born with female sexual anatomy are far more "male" internally. But this is a completely separate issue from questions about engaging in medical intervention intended to bring the internal and external into perceived alignment, or how to arrive at some sort of workable compromise between the interests and concerns expressed by Rowling and those expressed by people who want to live in the manner they identify as embodying in their minds if not in their bodies.

 

So as usual I piss off both sides since Rowling deserves to be heard, which pisses off the activists, and I also accept that a very small percentage of the population experiences genuine gender dysphoria, which pisses off the "men are men and women are women" camp. And then I make sure everyone's pissed by ending with reminding everyone that our reason for living and our ultimate purpose as physical beings is to act as vehicles for carrying around and passing along DNA. As far as Life (capital-L) is concerned, we're just temporary, disposable couriers who tend to over-complicate things when we're not forced to focus entirely on our own immediate survival (which is a relatively new context for our species that Evolution hasn't had time to adapt to yet).

 

So as some wise-ass once pointed out, we're a species living with paleolithic brains, medieval institutions, and godlike technology. So good luck to us; we're definitely gonna need it.


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#83 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 07:39 AM

In related news, the post linked below, which is the 10th chapter of an impressive work of research tracing back who we are and why all the way back to hunting and gathering, suggests that things possibly started to go downhill in the U.S. when Hitler died:

 

You could probably trace the roots of the trend all the way back to 1945, when Hitler died. As we’ve discussed, nothing unites a group of humans like a common enemy—and the first half of the twentieth century was dominated by giant world wars that helped Americans to feel united. The U.S. never stopped being immersed in foreign conflicts, but Hitler’s demise marked the last time Americans were totally, uncontroversially united against a common enemy.

 

 

https://waitbutwhy.c...sick-giant.html

 

He goes on from there to the present.

 

The whole project is worth a look. It's a big one (epic, even), but then tackling the question of who we "are" by offering a new lens to view ourselves through would be expected to be.


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#84 flashingrooster

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 09:20 AM

That twitter is the sewer of the internet, I used to like it but the political back and forth is so pointless. I have a couple friends that still use it. They know it's bad for them but there is a weird masochistic entertainment factor there. It has to be one of the worst ways to communicate. They limit characters in case you accidentally bore someone with a careful thought out explanation. The AI figured that out and so it acts more like crack than Tylenol, getting that hit of dopamine from all your likes, saying outrageous things just to get that rush.

 

Social media has to play a large role as well.

 

Jonathan Haidt mentions the tribal side of our society, we are very good at joining up to fight a common enemy. When we categorize and separate people into groups it seems to trigger that natural tendency of tribalism. Here is a video of him proposing a direction in providing a ranking of educational institutions. Based on free speech and thought scores

 

I had to do a search for TERF's   :ohmy: :biggrin:

 

[Direct Link]


Edited by flashingrooster, 09 July 2020 - 10:53 AM.


#85 flashingrooster

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 09:43 AM

I just have a problem when we start to distort reality. This claim is so absurd a five year old could explain why it's incorrect. But this guy does not skip a beat when using it in an argument. When your idea's are not allowed to be challenged this is how crazy they can get, men and women are biologically the same.  Please unpack that for us with your degree in history.

 

[Direct Link]

 

I wish we could go back to fretting about pronouns.


Edited by flashingrooster, 09 July 2020 - 09:43 AM.


#86 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 10:10 AM

Well that's an interesting take on things. I'd put "no such thing as biological sex" right below, or maybe above, belief in a flat Earth on the list of let's just say less-than-rational ideas. If I heard someone make that argument in person I'd ask them if they were trolling me.

 

I honestly cannot conceive of how someone could possibly believe and promote such an absurd position. I suspect it's another instance of conflating "sex" and "gender," where sex is a biological function and gender is a performance dictated largely by cultural norms (which are subject to change, unlike our reproductive capabilities).



#87 swayambhu

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 10:15 AM

Tbh I’m a bit bamboozled by the emphasis on toilets and changing rooms. I think protecting other dedicated “women’s spaces “ is more important, such as access to their political voice, sports, etc. That said I did read JK Rowling’s letter/essay and I do get that that would be a place women feel vulnerable, absolutely, and I am also highly alarmed by the Maya Forstater affair (I think her emphasis was on changing rooms too?).
I did chuckle, though, I think it was on that utterly foul but oh-so-moreish Twitter thread that TVCasualty kindly posted, something about women having nothing to fear because lesbians don’t spy on women in women’s changing rooms. Well, that is very likely not always true, but anyway we are talking about Male to female transsexuals, and maybe I’m showing my age but the person who wrote that has obviously never had to use a “deep trad” men’s toilets, where at least 25% of cubicles had cock and/or spy holes bored in the walls
But I guess those would be considered the old days now.

#88 swayambhu

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 10:24 AM

An excellent point JK Rowling made was that, according to “activists”, although biological sex was not immutable, self identified gender is. This was particularly pertaining to young people with gender dismorphia, and is contradictory and quite stupid.

That the reality of sex, make or female, is now open to question in courts of law is pure nucking futz.

Edited by swayambhu, 09 July 2020 - 10:27 AM.

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#89 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 11:35 AM

An excellent point JK Rowling made was that, according to “activists”, although biological sex was not immutable, self identified gender is. This was particularly pertaining to young people with gender dismorphia, and is contradictory and quite stupid.

That the reality of sex, make or female, is now open to question in courts of law is pure nucking futz.

 

 

I know a lot of women who were "tomboys" as girls. But all that means is that their interests don't fall in line with how our society expects femininity to be performed. A girl who loves mechanical stuff and science and collecting bugs and fighting (etc.) isn't "really" a boy trapped in a girl's body, but it seems like such things are being considered evidence of such. One of my ex girlfriends taught me how to overhaul bicycles all the way down to repacking the bearings (she was a pro-level racer and bike mechanic), but that's because she's the daughter of an engineer who had her help him in his shop since she was old enough to hold a screwdriver, not because she was actually a boy stuck in the wrong body ffs.
 

Another interesting point I saw raised while I was wading through the swamp of opinions on the subject was that "T" doesn't actually fit with "LGBQ" because being trans is an identity, not a sexual orientation. So a M-to-F transsexual who is attracted to women would technically be a lesbian, at least so long as you accept the premise that transwomen are women.

 

That said, the following article (which I found by searching "Maya Forstater") raises some points and alludes to things I hadn't read about before and that are making me amend my earlier statement back to what it had been a few years ago, namely that trans-women are trans-women (i.e., it is a unique category, as is "trans-man"): https://www.feminist...ncing-violence/

 

I expect to be punched by an activist at some point judging by how many posts, comments, and tweets I've seen advocating and/or celebrating violence being directed toward anyone considered to be a TERF. I can't actually be one since I'm not a radical feminist, but it's really the thought that counts so they'll punch me anyway to teach me a lesson about compassion and inclusivity. I look forward to it since I'd rather such violence be directed towards me than someone less capable of physically defending themselves. But then most of the victims of violence at the hands of angry trans activists have been women, so I guess like most bullies they pick their victims carefully to minimize the chance of someone striking back. And I guess the breathtaking irony of trans-women and "social justice warriors" acting like stereotypically-violent men is lost on them.

 

It appears that the trans activism community has overplayed its hand; I expect that the backlash is just getting started. Still, based on some of the incidents I've read about I can't help but think a large percentage of the more extreme lunacy surrounding the trans debate is coordinated trolling conducted by those who have an interest in dividing and destabilizing the U.S.. And yes, I mean Russian troll farms, etc..


Edited by TVCasualty, 09 July 2020 - 11:37 AM.


#90 flashingrooster

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 02:07 PM

Your right there is a ton to read in that sick giant article but it's pretty interesting stuff, thought I would reply something before I forget. I like the comparison he makes with the primitive and more rational brains, and how our moods can effect their actions. The roller coaster graphs, the ties to the election cycles.  It's all to human

 

Those old dudes knew how to speak

 

In his farewell speech at the end of his presidency, George Washington warned about the dangers of political polarization:

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy. The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism…It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions…it is a spirit not to be encouraged.

Everyone burst out laughing and the government has been polarized ever since.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Barely into the page, with all my distractions it might take a day or two


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#91 swayambhu

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 02:20 PM

Lol Russian troll farms! The number of people who forward me RT shit without knowing who/what RT is astounds next often.

Certainly activists of all stripes, including trans, BLM, etc, have most all of them over played their hands to the point of looking like Russian trolls. Im not going to rule out such agents provocateurs, but having many dear friends and family members ensnared by this toxic cult of indignation, and having seen it in its earlier manifestations on American college campuses more than 20 years ago, I am inclined to view it as a strangely enduring mass hysteria.

Unfortunately one of the most prominent symptoms of this hysteria is a belief that the demand for the often rather fruity concoction known as “social justice” is a zero sum game that they have the slightest chance of winning. The truth of it is that the best outcome from Joe Public is apathy, in the sense that Joe Public essentially doesn’t give a shit if two dudes want to marry, or what colour the mayor is, or if the pilot of their plane happens to be a woman. And that is as it should be. But push an agenda such as X, Y or Z lives matter, and you will eventually find that those lives don’t matter. People really don’t give a shit about anyone except the own loved ones, certainly after the point where it is any kind of inconvenience to give a shit. Call me a nihilist if you like.
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#92 swayambhu

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 03:04 PM

https://www.google.c...984086.html?amp

#93 flashingrooster

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 04:18 PM

[Direct Link]


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#94 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 10:41 AM

Lol Russian troll farms! The number of people who forward me RT shit without knowing who/what RT is astounds next often.

Certainly activists of all stripes, including trans, BLM, etc, have most all of them over played their hands to the point of looking like Russian trolls. Im not going to rule out such agents provocateurs, but having many dear friends and family members ensnared by this toxic cult of indignation, and having seen it in its earlier manifestations on American college campuses more than 20 years ago, I am inclined to view it as a strangely enduring mass hysteria.

Unfortunately one of the most prominent symptoms of this hysteria is a belief that the demand for the often rather fruity concoction known as “social justice” is a zero sum game that they have the slightest chance of winning. The truth of it is that the best outcome from Joe Public is apathy, in the sense that Joe Public essentially doesn’t give a shit if two dudes want to marry, or what colour the mayor is, or if the pilot of their plane happens to be a woman. And that is as it should be. But push an agenda such as X, Y or Z lives matter, and you will eventually find that those lives don’t matter. People really don’t give a shit about anyone except the own loved ones, certainly after the point where it is any kind of inconvenience to give a shit. Call me a nihilist if you like.

 

I don't think that these trends were started by trolls, but they seem to be eagerly showing up to fan the flames.

 

I saw more than a few tweets about the Rowling drama that just said "KILL ALL TERFS!!!" (written in all-caps, with lots of exclamation points so you know they, like, really mean it 'n' stuff) or otherwise promoted extreme violence against anyone identified as such, with no other commentary or perspective offered. That doesn't strike me as an enlightened or an intellectual perspective, though I guess it could also be the case that some real activists are abandoning such pretenses and becoming ironically-reactionary meatheads.

 

It doesn't make any sense (IMO) for trans activists to call for violence against anyone considering the history of violence against people who identify as trans. If anyone ever actually did murder someone because they were considered a "TERF" then that would be the beginning of a severe backlash and the end of progress for trans activism for a long, long time. If they're lucky.



#95 flashingrooster

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 03:14 PM

That sick giant article was really good, it had me hesitating to post that video after I hear Saagar say disgusting  :wink:  I hope a few folks can take the time to read it. I wonder what steps can be made to start towards a direction of healing. A way to rebuild the center and weaken the extremes

 

on another note

 

I think you may have said it earlier TV that part of what we are experiencing is essentially our shift to becoming more cyborg. It had me thinking about memory specifically. How vastly different our perception of the world would be if we could remember every single moment exactly for what it was. Are we starting to see that now with the internet. This trend of going back and digging up what someone said ten years ago and trying to use it to slander them. A collective cyborg memory


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#96 flashingrooster

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 07:02 PM

You better have your protest permit

 

[Direct Link]



#97 onediadem

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 09:44 PM

I am sick of all of this bullshit. When people start demanding that basic human rights be taken away from one color coded group of people to make another color coded group feel justified, superior, and correct, you straight up lose all respect from me.

 

Everyone should have the same rights across the board. Period. No, you cannot take away from one to give to another. No, killing people does not make your point any stronger. Wanna be a woman? Great! Wanna be a man? Great! Wanna get married? Great! All of the anger, hatred, violence, killing is driving everything accomplished to further humanity back a century. Acting like animals is not furthering any cause, for anyone. It is just going to get more people killed.

 

I freak out every time my mother leaves the house. I am so afraid some idiot is going to hurt her, just because she is frail. That seems to be the targets lately.

 

When did logic and common sense and courtesy leave the building?

 

I am fucking over it.


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#98 Alder Logs

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 08:14 AM

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#99 TVCasualty

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 01:49 PM

Well great, now I gotta boycott Israel again. Not that I really know how, since almost nothing I buy was made there. But it's the thought that counts. Everyone who values freedom of speech should boycott or otherwise oppose anyone involved in passing such stupid laws (including the U.S. lawmakers who introduced and voted in favor of them) since the only real difference between Israelis and Palestinians is a nearly unfathomable disparity of economic and military strength (an image of protesters throwing rocks at soldiers of a state that possesses nuclear weapons comes to mind).


That said, Krystal went a bit off the rails in criticizing the Harper's letter just because some of those who signed it are not speaking out about the BDS-law lunacy, as if they have an obligation to proactively speak up about everything going on (there's a lot going on, in case she hasn't noticed). Some of the signers may well be supporters of Israel's government and the anti-boycott laws, and if that makes them ironic hypocrites then they're ironic hypocrites but their presence among the signatories is not a source of valid criticism of the letter itself.

 

When did logic and common sense and courtesy leave the building?


The abandonment of logic and common sense (and science) seems to have begun to grow exponentially in parallel with the rise of Facebook and Twitter.

I recently dove into Twitter deeply for the first time, and to my genuine surprise when I checked the time after what felt like a few minutes I saw that three hours had passed. The state of mind I found myself in at that point was fascinating, and very unpleasant. I'd read a comment about the pathology of Twitter that summed it up perfectly (I forgot who wrote it): "I was marinating in dopamine."

After my very first Twitter-binge I was ready to hit the streets in righteous outrage to join the fight to stop racism, stop police brutality, support women's right to retain the right to keep people with penises out of their hard-won sex-segregated spaces, and maybe something about global warming too but I forgot since there was so much to be outraged about. That appears to be what bouncing around various echo-chambers that are based on the intellectual equivalent of political bumper-sticker slogans (so a wee bit lacking in nuance) results in.

Also, the infinite scrolling exploits our subconscious "fear of missing out" since the ultimate Tweet that finally brings it all together (whatever "it" is) and explains everything and saves the world might be just out of sight below the bottom of the page, and if I were to leave I might miss it! So I continue to scroll, and hey look at that hilarious clip of a squirrel failing to raid a bird feeder! I'll open that thread in another tab to watch later (next thing I knew I had 11 other tabs open of particularly hilarious, interesting, or infuriating Twitter posts to follow up on). I was basically going insane, and fairly quickly.

The craziness took a while to wear off, and it left me a bit disturbed and twitchy for a few days (like jonesing for more crack after the last hit wore off). If that's what a mere 3 hours can do, I can't begin to imagine the state of mind of those who spend hours a day, day after day, week after week, and year after year "marinating in dopamine" like that. But I suspect that it's a state of mind that explains a lot of the growing insanity that ostensible adults are manifesting both online and in real life, like the angry lunatic who got pepper-sprayed by a Ralph's employee a couple of days ago after yet another incident of throwing a violent "masks take away my freedumb!" temper tantrum.


In any case the sort-of good news this shit is a self-limiting trend, though it might require some patience before we see it end.

While the idea that "reality is what you can get away with" is true in some sense, it's also under-appreciated that "getting away with it" might have a time limit. It seems safe to say that a reality with an expiration date is not a real reality. Sometimes the reality that doesn't expire takes a while to reassert itself thanks to the technologies we've invented to deny it or beat it into temporary submission. When it inevitably does reassert itself (as is the nature of reality) then there will be a whole lot of lunacy and irrationality that people will no longer be getting away with.

We cannot maintain a complex, technologically-advanced civilization unless we acknowledge and have direct contact with the reality that remains after we've failed to get away with living in the constructs we wish were reality. It would be nice if we returned to reality without our civilization having to collapse in order to do it because if we fail then collapse is inevitable. Hence the "sort-of" good news.


Edited by TVCasualty, 17 July 2020 - 01:52 PM.

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#100 flashingrooster

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 04:23 PM

It's amazing how much of an effect social media can have on our minds. Listening to a Joe Rogan podcast today they had some interesting points about twitter. It's almost sad when you think about it. The Idea that we all just crave love, we need it, we need attention. So twitter can provide that feeling, you might find yourself saying something you don't really feel in order to get that attention. I wonder about some of those people on there that are virtue signalling so hard. It's might just be that they need some more love in their life and this was the outlet that provided it. This changing organism that will adjust even how you speak, for fear of losing that love. I would have to admit that I do that on here to some extent. You react to what others are saying and change what you say to try to keep your online friends. That could just be human thing though, not particular to social media at all.

 

There is more to the story though. Things like Twitter and Facebook have been intentionally manipulated in order to be more addicting. It's the scary side of this data collection. The more that a company learns about their consumer provides them with better marketing tools. They purposefully boil idea's down and oversimplify things so they can be more easily and quickly consumed. In the podcast they made the comparison to junk food. We are getting this processed way of interacting with one another






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