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Greta UN speech


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#41 MsBehavin420

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 06:50 AM

The "conspiracy" part is the notion that she was elevated to her current status intentionally by people acting behind the scenes. That is a patently-absurd notion.

That opportunists are hitching their wagons to her sudden fame and trying to use her as a tool probably happens to all famous people, but that's a whole different ballgame than claiming she's some kind of agent specifically created to advance someone else's agenda.

She looks a lot younger than she is, which I suspect is fueling some of the criticisms and opinions that her thoughts and words are not her own. But she's 16, and a 16-year old is only still a "child" in an arbitrary cultural sense, or if they've been raised in the U.S. (and I'm only half-joking about that). I know several people who were already living entirely on their own and fully supporting themselves by that age.

the odds that a non-photogenic, dyspeptic 16 year old could become the tip of the spear of a global , non-spontaneous, "groundswell" is astronomically unlikely.


Unlikely stuff happens more often all the time (mainly because there are so many unlikely events that can happen).

This is why I am enjoying the rise of the Chaos Age. A growing emergence of the unpredictable and unexpected is becoming the new normal. And we ain't seen nothin' yet. The Butterfly Effect is real, and greatly underestimated in terms of its role in what actually happens in the world.

Few if any people saw Trump's presidency coming, too (including Trump). So the Chaos Age works both ways, of course.

And speaking of Trump, why is it that women (or girls) with opinions are criticized as not being photogenic (a decidedly subjective standard) while butt-ugly men can spout outright lies and bullshit from a podium all day long without it being pointed out how not-photogenic they are? And FWIW, Ms. Thunberg has addressed this point, too.

she was selected, groomed, and turned out like a Subway sandwich


Based on what?

That's merely a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory being directed at her that lacks any sources besides embarrassingly low-quality memes.

And taking someone's message and persona at face value is not a conspiracy theory in any sense of the phrase, and assuming otherwise is arguably where any wishful thinking is occurring.
idk its looking like she was groomed forthis. Im still on the rides ber parents coattails for them to be rich and world known

#42 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 12:52 PM

I try not to hate. I'm human and still get mad as hell at things and people, but I practice forgiveness as best as an old sinner can

Greta will have to live with herself and relive all she has said and done when she gets older and wiser. I hope she ages well and gracefully and comes to understand what life is about and what is truly important about it. It is kinda the most important reason we have been granted its favors and follies. Like the rest of us, she will calm down after living through 5 or 6 end of the world scenarios and seeing that while everything changes, life is still the same life it always was. The world is not what is important.

People are. And people never change by themselves. We change when we are together. Listening to each other. She isn't ready to hear all of it yet. She has only heard those who agree with her. Change happens when we HEAR, finally hear, and understand the people we dont agree with. Much of what she says is correct, but until she hears and understands those who dont agree, she will always think the wrong way about solutions to the problems we all see.

 

The whole point of her protests and activism is the premise that when she gets older her life will be a pile of shit (or worse) thanks to the state of the world that she will probably end up having to deal with due to the intransigence of all the “level headed” adults who patronizingly pat her on the head while continuing to be unwilling to consider the possibility that she’s right.

 

The implicit assumption in your reply is that she’s an alarmist and that what she is saying is inaccurate or wrong because she’s going to grow up into a world much like this one and end up being confronted by these videos on talk shows when she’s older because there will still be things like TV and talk shows when she's in her 30's or whatever. I think that she would agree with me when I say that that would be the ideal and preferred outcome. I would like nothing more than to be wrong about everything I say about the environment and climate, too.

We’re at the point where blame doesn’t matter, but acknowledging that a problem exists arguably does. So far we don’t seem to be making sufficient headway to actually slow the more disturbing trends, much less reverse them. This is really freaking out some of the kids, apparently. And that does not seem to me to be an entirely irrational response to such a situation.


We are in unprecedented circumstances that have no historic equivalent, so lessons from the past may no longer be applicable to how we deal with them. Also, the “end of the world” is relative; just ask an Apache. Which is to say, it happens. So life does change, big-time.

Many prior civilizations collapsed due to climatic changes, but they were localized, regional climatic changes so people migrated and new civilizations arose in different areas. The new areas were also largely unexploited as far as resource depletion went, so migrating from a drought stricken region where agriculture failed to the equivalent of a fully-stocked pantry was relatively easy; you just had to walk or sail to it since there was no one else around to get in the way beyond a few rag-tag groups of Neanderthals in the early years (at least until the human population grew beyond a certain point, and the discovery of the “New” World and such).

Also, in the transition periods between civilizations when social cohesion and political stability was nonexistent the people still know how to grow their own food, raise their own animals, got around on horseback, make their own shelters, etc.. They knew how to live without industrial infrastructure. Civilization for them was almost a luxury, and not entirely necessary to live. We don’t know how to do those things, and can’t live without our civilization anymore. To spend one weekend in the woods the modern human approaches it like a SCUBA diver approaches the ocean, and when the big tank on their back runs low on air or granola (depending) they are forced to head back. We've become so alienated from the natural world we came from that it might as well be outer space, or under the ocean. I suspect that this has warped our perceptions of how dependent we still are upon it.

 

 

Anyway, there is no fertile fully-stocked nature-pantry to migrate to when the one our civilization depends on runs low on supplies because it’s the first one to span the entire planet.

Which is to say that the world is definitely important since there won’t be any people around if it’s too fucked up to support our existence.

 

Incidentally, the people who agree with her are highly-informed scientists who are looking at actual data. Those who dispute the data have not made the case that they’re not full of shit and being paid to promote a perspective that some folks have a vested interest in promoting. Contrary opinions do not deserve equal time in the context of science unless they have robust data supporting them.

 

She is so strident and pissed off precisely because of all the “just calm down little girl, you’ll grow up and end up just like everybody else in this unchanging world that will last forever” kind of responses she’s been getting, which are indicative of not listening to what she’s been saying.

 

 

And heck, this thread has been restricted to merely the climate-based existential threats to civilization. There are still all the usual economic, geopolitical, pandemic, interstellar (gamma ray bursts), kinetic (i.e. asteroids), and solar threats to consider.

 

It appears that our civilization is hanging by many very fine threads, but only one of them has to snap to begin the domino effect thanks to how interconnected and complex everything has become.

 

Maybe we should slow down a bit and try for more resiliency rather than more growth for a change?

 

Good god I wish I could figure out how to not care anymore.
 


Edited by TVCasualty, 06 October 2019 - 01:06 PM.

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#43 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 01:02 PM

idk its looking like she was groomed forthis. Im still on the rides ber parents coattails for them to be rich and world known

 

 

All indications are that that is not the case.

 

 

From one source:

 

There has been a backlash against Thunberg and her campaign to combat climate change. Thunberg, who has Asperger’s Syndrome, has had to respond to media comments which she says contain untrue “rumours” and “enormous amounts of hate”. Some of those rumours were started by the Belgian environment minister Joke Schauvliege, who falsely claimed state agencies had proof that the school climate strike protests were set up by unnamed powers. He was forced to resign when his statements proved to be false.

 

https://www.themeteo...ocal-academics/

 

 

From Ms. Thunberg herself:

 

 

"There is one other argument that I can't do anything about," she wrote, "And that is the fact that I'm 'just a child and we shouldn't be listening to children.' But that is easily fixed—just start to listen to the rock solid science instead. Because if everyone listened to the scientists and the facts that I constantly refer to—then no one would have to listen to me or any of the other hundreds of thousands of school children on strike for the climate across the world. Then we could all go back to school."

 

If she was holding a mic when she said that, I hope that was where she dropped it and walked off stage.


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#44 Juthro

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 01:43 PM

I guess for my part I dont understand why some people are so against Greta.  I can understand the people that are responding to her rally cry, and I also understand (but dont agree with) those that think its just a publicity event, and respond with apathy . 

 

But I dont understand why some people seem so upset with her personally, and feel the need to attack her.

 

I strongly agree with TV's comment that we need to be working on global stability, and sustainability, not global growth.  But what do I know, I'm just a dope smoking hillbilly that lives where the glaciers used to be.


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#45 Alder Logs

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 01:47 PM

This brings so much meaning to the dilemma of Arjuna at his moment before riding into battle with loved ones, become enemies.   We may be called into such battles when whichever thread breaks to start this fragile world of ours to start an exponential unraveling.  It is then when we should not indulge our false egos and their hatred of the perceived "other." It will be duty alone, and a sad day which must be faced in some way.  These could be our Bhagavad Gita days.   May we be graced enough to be riding with a Krishna.


Edited by Alder Logs, 06 October 2019 - 01:54 PM.

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#46 GORF

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 01:49 PM

Did you read the part where I said she is right. It's the way she is approaching the problem that is wrong?

Find what you want to find in the things said and written by others. Hearing what has been said is a lost skill apparently
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#47 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 01:51 PM

I guess for my part I dont understand why some people are so against Greta.

 

 

I suspect the backlash against her partly stems from the same kind of reflex that makes devoutly religious people pissed off and offended when their beliefs are criticized. Which is to say that it's because one's identity is intertwined with one's beliefs and assumptions about reality. To question one is to question the other, so it's taken personally even if it's happening at an unconscious level.

 

I also suspect that the phrase "too scary to contemplate" is literally true in some cases for some people about some issues. So if you force someone to contemplate something that scary anyway there is bound to be some reflexive resistance.


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#48 TVCasualty

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Posted 06 October 2019 - 01:51 PM

Did you read the part where I said she is right. It's the way she is approaching the problem that is wrong?

Find what you want to find in the things said and written by others. Hearing what has been said is a lost skill apparently

 

Yes. I also read the other stuff, too.



#49 TVCasualty

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 12:13 PM

 

Did you read the part where I said she is right. It's the way she is approaching the problem that is wrong?

Find what you want to find in the things said and written by others. Hearing what has been said is a lost skill apparently

 

Yes. I also read the other stuff, too.

 

 

I guess I should expand on that response a bit. I'm sure no one else wants me to, but I was referring to my own take on it.

 

Those who don’t agree with the data she is presenting are wrong. Period.

 

This is an issue of facts, not opinions. The uninformed and agenda-driven skeptics can henceforth be ignored and told to STFU unless they can come up with any actual data to back up their BS claims and spurious interpretations. Or in other words, to hell with their ignorant and disingenuous perspective. It’s bullshit, and we don’t need to be subjected to it. Same goes for those who disagree simply because they find what she’s saying to be too scary; denial is an infantile response to an issue of such great importance and adds nothing to any discussion of it.

If I sound like a strident asshole that’s okay and I can live with it since it’s apparently necessary to go to extremes to snap the slumbering masses out of their almost narcotic level of complacency (almost?), which is really only still possible to indulge in in places like the U.S. where the living is still easy and there’s enough water to drink. For now. "Travel broadens the mind" and all that...

Change at the scale needed to mitigate the effects of a destabilized climate only happens when a critical mass of the population pulls its collective head out of its ass and acknowledges what needs changing. The data is in, so we know what to “come together” to focus on. So the calls to stop and listen to those who disagree with the data are the ones who are preventing the necessary unity to actually accomplish anything, ironically. There is such a thing as suicidal complacency, as we’ll probably all discover sooner rather than later.

And I’ll believe that “people” are what’s important when our society stops using so many of them as expendable slave labor for the support and entertainment of the few.

 

The modern global exploitation-based economy as it stands has made human life cheap as shit; how many thousand dead workers is a World Cup soccer stadium worth? The one in Qatar is projected to cost around 4000 people by the time it’s finished; is that not utterly and totally fucked up thing to be happening in this so-called “modern world?” So the actual and de facto slaves are still dying by the score to keep us amused with the same old Bread and Circuses shtick since the Ancient Romans first invented modern politics. Clearly, what matters to us is *some* people (and not others). And the blood of those 'others' is on all of our hands; cheap gas and big soccer games ain't cheap, after all.

 

 

I get the impression that living in this world right now is a little like how it was to be living as a Roman citizen watching Nero fiddlling as Rome burned. The only consolation for the Romans would have come when the flames finally overtook him, too. Which is small consolation indeed.






 


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#50 Alder Logs

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 12:25 PM

Yall'z'll be sorry when the solar minimum has us in the upcoming ice age!

 

I was in another forum at the invite of a local friend a year or so back.  I had to leave because it was a rat-race choir of anthropogenic climate change deniers.  It's the "all natural cycles -- we ain't to blame -- fill 'er up" crowd that I just couldn't take anymore.  They really pumped that coming ice age crap at full tilt.  That friend still believes it.   I posted there a few times that this will be the ice age that has an ice free Arctic Ocean.   I was pissin' into the  wind, so I bailed. 

 

I still listen to this report every week:

 

[Direct Link]


Edited by Alder Logs, 07 October 2019 - 12:26 PM.


#51 pharmer

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 01:03 PM

This is an issue of facts, not opinions. The uninformed and agenda-driven skeptics can henceforth be ignored and told to STFU unless they can come up with any actual data to back up their BS claims and spurious interpretations. Or in other words, to hell with their ignorant and disingenuous perspective. It’s bullshit, and we don’t need to be subjected to it. Same goes for those who disagree simply because they find what she’s saying to be too scary; denial is an infantile response to an issue of such great importance and adds nothing to any discussion of it.

 

It appears you've gone full scientific method in this paragraph.

 

You know, the part where the scientific method says it's always searching, always questioning, always willing to disprove one's own pet theory - or hear arguments against it. Congrats. You've got this one surrounded, Scientist.

 

The Catholics are changing again. Maybe they'll need someone to run their Climate Inquisitions.

 

Why are you so red-hot emotional on this issue? I can see your forehead turning red from here.

 

IF your theory is correct you win. If not will you be humbled and join the other science predictors of just the past hundred years who missed their guesses about Global Cooling, Running out of Water by 1990, Too many people crumpling the planet by now? Or just move on to the next thing that this same "community" of caring people "prove" to you is the next imminent threat?

 

It's not on the deniers to prove their position. It's on the claimants making the claim. So your admonition to STFU rings hollow.

 

 

And to be clear......................I Don't Give a Shit.....................I Dont Have a Horse In this Race

 

I'll be underground in fifteen years most likely

 

My whole point is that I've seen this movie many times before. Hell, I bought the Run Out Of Water thing for a while when I was young and gullible. But always, always, always the hot button of the day is being pushed AND FORGOTTEN well within the time the imminent end of the world is supposed to arrive.

 

So for anyone willing to risk an aneurysm over this stuff - go ahead - make yourself happy. But be very careful what you ask for. There are far too many people willing to give it to you - GOOD AND HARD


Edited by pharmer, 07 October 2019 - 01:10 PM.

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#52 Alder Logs

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 01:23 PM

One thing that has hit me hard is the contrast I have heard that the live Pacific Ocean that I have crossed from west to east and from north to south and back again is seen to be dead now.   Sailors report not seeing any life in the waters for thousands of miles in recent years.  If this is true, we are certainly fucked.


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#53 TVCasualty

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 01:38 PM


Why are you so red-hot emotional on this issue? I can see your forehead turning red from here.

 

 

It's actually not, since I don't have nor plan to have kids. It's more exasperated bafflement than rage.

 

It's real hard to wake someone up when they're passed out on narcotics, whether they are opiates, opioids, or rhetorical. And a hell of a lot of people are still asleep when it's arguably a rather important time to wake up and pay attention. So some stridency and volume is arguably justified. It's like if you find someone sleeping on railroad tracks when a train is coming; do you care if you piss them off by waking them up (or attempting to, anyway)? Ms. Thunberg obviously doesn't, and I don't either.

 

The thing about being an "alarmist" that people who criticize alarmists seem to forget is that sounding the alarm is only relevant or useful if it's done before the damage has occurred. Anyone can point out our colossal fuckups in retrospect, but that won't do anyone any good.

 

 

 

A good friend of mine's family only exists because her grandfather read Mein Kampf when it was first published. Grandpa was a German Jew, and unlike the rest of his family or most of his neighbors, he believed what he was reading (i.e., the data). It took him until the borders were nearly closed to get his whole family out since they were resisting his efforts to get them the hell out of there while the getting was good because they simply could not believe that such a crazy little man could gain power and that when he did they never believed that he would really do all the things he said he would in his infamous book.

 

That was a cautionary tale that made quite an impression on me. Many of grandpa's incredulous and oblivious friends and neighbors were slaughtered, including all of those who laughed at his 'alarmism' and 'fear' and stayed behind because "it can't happen here," as everyone who hasn't seen "it" happen where they're at yet seems to believe.

 

 

At what point should we take the equivalent of a Mein Kampf seriously and act on it rather than dismiss it as irrelevant? Likewise, when do we take a massive amount of climate data seriously and act on it?

 

Like with the Hitler-skeptics who stuck around Germany because it was easier than packing up and moving to the desert, if we fail to heed the warnings for what our future has in store for us (whether those warning come in the form of data or insane political manifestos) then we will profoundly regret it, too. I am one degree of separation from a rather sobering precedent in that regard, and FWIW my stridency stems from wanting y'all to avoid being slaughtered or otherwise inconvenienced by what the future likely holds if we maintain our present course.

 

Edit: My admonition to the ignorant and disingenuous to STFU won't ring hollow, but it will be ignored, of course.


Edited by TVCasualty, 07 October 2019 - 01:46 PM.


#54 Alder Logs

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 02:26 PM

The STFUs can pertain to both mouths and ears, depending... 

 

Rome is burning and the fiddlers are coming out of the woodwork.   And here I sit, with a prepper mentality but no real clue as to how I might prepare, beyond my Peterson's Field Guide To Edible Wild Plants.  I am sitting on top of the middle of the Cascadia Subduction Zone, probably vertically right over where the overdue slipping of the fault will be at its maximum, living in a mousetrap of a cabin on stilts on a slope. 

 

I am happy to be anywhere. 

 

As a friend often says, "Let 'er buck!"

 

My neighbor's kid just turned five.  I wonder what his life is going to be like.   He was happy yesterday, fishing in the pond. 


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#55 TVCasualty

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 04:43 PM


My neighbor's kid just turned five.  I wonder what his life is going to be like.   He was happy yesterday, fishing in the pond. 

 

Shorter than he expects, most likely.

 

 

Some interesting reading for anyone who is interested:

 

https://www.esquire....l-water-crisis/
https://www.newyorke...pped-pretending
https://www.telegrap...rmafrost-melts/
http://www.bbc.com/f...ting-arctic-ice
http://nymag.com/int...-than-that.html
http://www.bbc.com/f...ng-out-of-water
http://nautil.us/iss...-starts-wars-rp
https://www.theatlan...m-share/579190/
https://www.thelance...mate-and-health

 



#56 pharmer

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 07:01 PM

The Fukushima business ought to scare the pants off us.

 

They plan to dump DUMP all that radioactive waste they've been collecting since the accident into the Pacific, if they haven't already and are just preparing the people for the bad news.

 

Worse, if they have a plan so that they doesn't have to do it again I'm not seeing the headlines anywhere.


Edited by pharmer, 07 October 2019 - 07:01 PM.


#57 GORF

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 07:38 PM

This earth can take all that and more and will just shrug it off.

Gentlemen life has been wiped out many times in the past leaving nothing but smoldering ruin.

Look around you now....we may indeed make life unbearably brutal for ourselves but we are no threat to anything but ourselves.

The time scales earth moon and sun operate at are not fathomable by our puny intellects. Life will continue and thrive again but humans most likely will not be here to witness it.

A real SURETHING that no one seems to hear about is the coming magnetic pole flip. The magnetic field has decreased in strength since it was first discovered and the decrease is accelerating. Minor north poles have appeared near south America and the north pole is moving so fast toward Siberia that the navigational charts have to be updated almost yearly now.

We dont know how long a flip will take, but if our magnetic field continues to decrease in strength to the point of temporary extinction the surface of the earth will be without its "sunscreen", and that will be a scenario most people cannot even imagine.

Chernoble and Fukushima will be everywhere the sun shines for however many years or decades it takes for reversal.

The real dangers are out there and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM makes global warming seem like a picnic.

Relax and enjoy life my friends for tomorrow we surely will all die. Whoopie
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#58 GORF

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 07:41 PM

Oh, I almost forgot.

Be excellent to each other. We are all we have.
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#59 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 08:02 PM

[Direct Link]

 

 

This about sums it up for me



#60 MsBehavin420

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 08:45 PM

One thing that has hit me hard is the contrast I have heard that the live Pacific Ocean that I have crossed from west to east and from north to south and back again is seen to be dead now. Sailors report not seeing any life in the waters for thousands of miles in recent years. If this is true, we are certainly fucked.

We have about one beached whale a week during the summer.
some from boating accidents or shark injuries but some they dont have a reason for why before it explodes




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