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Collapsing Cakes


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#1 Maddmyco

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 07:01 PM

I spoon my mix into 5 different quart jars and double aluminium foil each top held with a rubberband. I pressure cook for 75-90 minutes at 15psi and let cool overnight. Each one of my jar's mix shrunk. So much in fact the spore needle no longer reaches the mix. I'm using SHIPs so I drizzled 1.8cc in a circle in the jar. I have 2 questions: 1) Why did my cakes collapse? 2) Is drizzling my spores as I did ok?

#2 Sidestreet

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 05:23 AM

You said "mix", are you using PF substrate?  The collapsing could be due to the long cook time.  PF substrate really doesn't need pressure cooking for that long.

 

Also,

 

post-126525-0-24248100-1437973039.jpg

 

 


Edited by Sidestreet, 10 October 2019 - 05:25 AM.

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#3 Maddmyco

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 06:46 AM

I'm using a recipe pretty damn close to Hippie3's. I don't have the lake water yet, so I'm using tap. I mathed out the portions to fill 16 jars from 4 syringes. My first syringe was Burma and we PC for and hour and a half. My second strand was B+, which I added coir to the mix to held with fluffing my cakes preventing collapse. I PC these for one hour fifteen minutes. The cakes did compress, but not as much yet I still had to drizzle my spores. Thank you for your help. I just got my probation period complete and am a free member, so I'm a total newb.

#4 Maddmyco

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 07:37 AM

Total newb here, I'm assuming I over PC my jar's, and now my syringe doesn't reach the top of my cakes. I'm using SHIPs, so when inoculating I'm drizzle my spores on the top instead on injecting. Am I going to find success?

#5 PJammer24

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 02:38 PM

I can't say for sure why you had them shrink that much, but as a "total newb", I would suggest following whatever tek you decide to the letter... Experienced users sometimes have issues when they try to experiment... Seems like experimentation is not the best way to get started in any hobby... I would suggest "Magic for the Masses" as a good way to start opposed to trying to do some of the more exotic methods such as one where lake water is being used... I don't know that tek off hand but I wouldnt be surprised if ole Hip threw a couple other wrinkles in the method for reasons he understood completely.



#6 FunG

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 03:15 PM

Yea, your cakes shouldn't be shriveling up after pressure cooking... I'm going to guess that it's actually being caused by to much heat from the element.

A PC only requires medium-low once up to pressure, and excess heat would be the only explanation for the shrinkage.
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#7 coorsmikey

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 03:35 PM

Did you use water in the pressure cooker? Or did it run dry?



#8 FunG

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 05:07 AM

Seen this question in another thread but my response is the same, reduce the heat during pc'ing to prevent the cakes from shrinking.

And inoculation should be done so that the spore solution rolls down the sides of the glass, it's a better microclimate for germination.
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#9 Maddmyco

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 07:17 AM

My efforts have been to follow Hippie3's tek to the T with my only exception being tap water over lake water. Due to the volume I am trying to make I increased ingredients proportionately to allow me to fill 16 quart jars. As a new grower I'm certainly not experimenting. I've got too much money invested. I just bought a nice new PC. I'm not dry boiling my cakes, there's plenty of water. So far I've PC 3 runs and have experienced varying degrees of shrink. My last run went for an hour at 15psi with what i consider to be a gentle rocking as my indication the temp was good. I'm listening to you guys, so I'm going yo turn the heat down and run for less tome. If I get contamination then I under shot and learned from my experience. One note of much importance; I'm using a flat glass to range with my PC. It's all I've got. Thank you for your help.
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#10 FunG

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:19 AM

That's funny, I used a glass top stove when I experienced shrinkage but that was due to, to high of a heat setting like I was saying.... the water source is hardly a concern unless it's coming from a irradiated or otherwise toxic water supply... I used to hydrate with coffee without a hitch, havnt been using it much since I'm having nightmare woes on my end due to reasons I'm still dissecting, shrinking cakes would be the least of my worries....

Funny story about glass tops....this old rooming house I stayed at had a brand new glass top stove installed, the landlord took great pride in it....well, silly me let the PC leak and water got under the surface next thing you know another boarder went to use the stove and was nearly zapped to death by a 220amp charge shooting electrical volts like a whip or excited dog with tail wags....

It took some courage unplugging that stove after what I had done, getting near the thing and ninja'ing around it was like out of a action movie or low budget comedy

Moral of the story is to be very careful that the PC doesnt leak water under the glass top so you can avoid a similar situation, it was funny at first but 220amp's took a buddies arm up to his elbow off recently (also while working on a stove)

Just a tip of caution man
Take care

I just remembered, when I experienced shrinking cakes the alternative fix to lowering the heat was placing a tea towel between the jars and bottom of the pot, that was crucial and the most important info I forgot to give you, sorry.

Edited by FunG, 11 October 2019 - 10:54 AM.


#11 Misfit

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:52 AM

The only thing I can think of is maybe you didn’t compress the mix? When I did mine I placed a towel down on the counter and gave the jar 2-3 taps on it to compress the mix before cleaning the edge and placing the dry verm layer.
That’s about all I can really think of. If you mentioned doing that I apologize. Also drizzling spores on the top doesn’t really help if you do have a dry verm barrier layer.

#12 peacefrog

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:14 PM

Total newb here, I'm assuming I over PC my jar's, and now my syringe doesn't reach the top of my cakes. I'm using SHIPs, so when inoculating I'm drizzle my spores on the top instead on injecting. Am I going to find success?


Are you saying that you “drizzle” the spore solution on top of the verm layer?

If so, you may get lucky and germination sites from the spore water running down through the dry verm layer but that isn’t ideal. The verm layer is applied and supposed to stay dry, it’s your “filter” so to speak. Of course over time, the verm layer will wick up some moisture from the cake, but will still remain relatively dry for the most part.

I have never seen properly prepared and sterilized cake material shrink like that after sterilization.

How are you preparing your jars?

#13 Juthro

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:46 PM

 

Are you saying that you “drizzle” the spore solution on top of the verm layer?

If so, you may get lucky and germination sites from the spore water running down through the dry verm layer but that isn’t ideal. The verm layer is applied and supposed to stay dry, it’s your “filter” so to speak. Of course over time, the verm layer will wick up some moisture from the cake, but will still remain relatively dry for the most part.

I have never seen properly prepared and sterilized cake material shrink like that after sterilization.

How are you preparing your jars?

 

 

Peacefrog,here is what he stated in an earlier thread. https://mycotopia.ne...llapsing-cakes/

 

 

I spoon my mix into 5 different quart jars and double aluminium foil each top held with a rubberband. I pressure cook for 75-90 minutes at 15psi and let cool overnight. Each one of my jar's mix shrunk. So much in fact the spore needle no longer reaches the mix. I'm using SHIPs so I drizzled 1.8cc in a circle in the jar. I have 2 questions: 1) Why did my cakes collapse? 2) Is drizzling my spores as I did ok?

 

My first question for maddmyco is, what tek did you follow that told you to make cakes in quart jars?


Edited by Juthro, 11 October 2019 - 09:47 PM.

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#14 peacefrog

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 04:19 AM

Thank you for the clarification Juthro.

Yea I agree, quart jars are not recommended for cakes. Even pint jars can be troublesome and slow to colonize.

The original PF tek calls for half-pint jars to be used. I have would stick with those, they are tried and true.

I still don’t understand why they shrunk so much though. If I use cake material, I always very lightly pack them down being careful not to do so too tightly and have never seen that issue. I guess sterilization times could be the culprit but then again, I have sterilized mine along side grain jars for 90 min. and never had that issue. If alone, I only sterilize cake material for 30-45 minutes personally.

My bet is you are just not packing down enough, leaving a lot of room for the material to settle via gravity.

Edited by peacefrog, 12 October 2019 - 04:20 AM.

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#15 Juthro

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 11:24 AM

Also, both wide, and regular mouth quarts have a shoulder at the top of the jar, and they aren't going to allow you to get the cake out in one peace. 


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#16 Maddmyco

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 01:42 PM

I'm no using a verm layer. My jars have SHIPs and I'm using micropore tape for FAE. I inoculated by drizzling on the 10/6 then placed my jars on an aquarium heating pad receiving indirect sunlight. The temps are approximately 77 degrees, but after 5 days nothing is happening.

#17 peacefrog

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 02:08 PM

I assume this is your first attempt at cultivation. Welcome to cultivation, it’s a very fun and rewarding hobby.

My advise would be to let those ride until you either see no germination OR contamination becomes present since you have already inoculated them.

In the mean time, start new and follow this: https://mycotopia.ne...for-the-masses/ and do not deviate from the instructions one bit for a couple of grows. Or until you feel very comfortable with the growth cycle.

Good vibes!
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#18 peacefrog

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 02:18 PM

Good point.

#19 Maddmyco

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 05:02 PM

Thanks guys. I'm following Hippie3's tech. I scaled up the portions to accommodate quart jars. I've received three valid points of concideration: 1. My sterilization time 2. Sterilization heat 3. Cake packing prior to sterilization. This is my first ever attempt. I'm still learning. I just hope I haven't shit the bed on my first efforts. I'll update as it happens. Thanks.

#20 Billcoz

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 05:08 AM

I spoon my mix into 5 different quart jars and double aluminium foil each top held with a rubberband. I pressure cook for 75-90 minutes at 15psi and let cool overnight. Each one of my jar's mix shrunk. So much in fact the spore needle no longer reaches the mix. I'm using SHIPs so I drizzled 1.8cc in a circle in the jar. I have 2 questions: 1) Why did my cakes collapse? 2) Is drizzling my spores as I did ok?

So your lids have ships, is there GE holes with filters on em?, Did you leave out the dry verm barrier?

 

I ask because I did that and used tyvec material for a filter and had that happen, with the cakes shrinking. I think the tyvec just didn't allow gas to expel, causing pressure in the jars, cooking the BRF way too much.

 

Mine grew but very slowly,  but my needles were long enough to reach the very top and penetrate about 1/4-1/2 inch into the top of the cake. Yours will probably grow but might take longer to colonize from the outside of the cake.

 

Check out my thread on that grow(link). Those cakes only ended up giving like 2 flushes and got hard and dried out very easily..


Edited by Billcoz, 14 October 2019 - 05:09 AM.





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