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What is consciousness? [Discussion]


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#21 Oneyedraven

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 02:13 PM

Just wanted to say I’m so very thankful this forum is here and we “discuss” topics along these lines. This very subject has been the focus of many of my thoughts... not exactly something you can bring up as casual “dinner conversation” or even with a close friend that isn’t in the same space (mentally) yet. Not sure if I can articulate my thoughts as succinctly as others here. But something that I don’t see discussed or included in the nature of reality discussions/ research etc. is the vibrational aspect of existence. Jordon Peterson touches on this slightly in his work in that - speaking (or writing) something brings ideas into the sphere of I’m thinking there is something to the speaking things into being since even the Old Testament says the world was spoken in being. Think of a rumor that is not true or something said that is not true, speaking it you can’t unspeak it so it be becomes the reality even if it’s not true. reading some holographic universe stuff and watching the
SAND ( science and non duality) videos
Of course I have more questions than answers.. Wondering if anyone has explored / thoughts on the vibrational- I.e. sound aspect of reality. My thoughts are leaning in the direction that we/this world / or plane of existence is a vibration (or measurable sound vibration) of a higher being (possibly our own true higher consciousness).
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#22 RainbowCatepillar

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Posted 29 October 2019 - 02:28 PM

Just wanted to say I’m so very thankful this forum is here and we “discuss” topics along these lines. This very subject has been the focus of many of my thoughts... not exactly something you can bring up as casual “dinner conversation” or even with a close friend that isn’t in the same space (mentally) yet. Not sure if I can articulate my thoughts as succinctly as others here. But something that I don’t see discussed or included in the nature of reality discussions/ research etc. is the vibrational aspect of existence. Jordon Peterson touches on this slightly in his work in that - speaking (or writing) something brings ideas into the sphere of I’m thinking there is something to the speaking things into being since even the Old Testament says the world was spoken in being. Think of a rumor that is not true or something said that is not true, speaking it you can’t unspeak it so it be becomes the reality even if it’s not true. reading some holographic universe stuff and watching the
SAND ( science and non duality) videos
Of course I have more questions than answers.. Wondering if anyone has explored / thoughts on the vibrational- I.e. sound aspect of reality. My thoughts are leaning in the direction that we/this world / or plane of existence is a vibration (or measurable sound vibration) of a higher being (possibly our own true higher consciousness).

Yes! I'm not sure if you're familiar with Cymatics, but please, take a look at how sound creates order in randomly placed grains of sand..
Thanks for bringing this up!

https://www.youtube....h?v=wvJAgrUBF4w


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#23 Coopdog

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 01:46 AM

I am VERY much into the vibrational frequencies creating reality. The sound of musical frequencies creating sacred geometry in sand and water is absolutely phenomenal. Just came across a guy named Nassim Haramein, that I am looking forward to digging in to. He is about the unified field theory and his stuff looks fascinating, about sacred geometry and even musical intervals (Vibration) effects reality. Just came across it this morning, so we can learn about it together possibly. I agree so much with you all, that I am very glad this thread came up right now, as I am ripe for looking into something relevent. Life has been boring and repetitive, and this was just what I needed. 


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#24 Alder Logs

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 09:28 AM

Just came across a guy named Nassim Haramein... 

 

This is the one physicist I would most love to sit down with.  I, the high school dropout, find him the one educated scientist on the scene who I think sees the physical universe in the most compatible way to my own vision.  I have been wanting the universe to somehow make that sitting down happen.  But, no biggie either way.  It's just the universe, and not up to a 'me'.


Edited by Alder Logs, 30 October 2019 - 09:29 AM.

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#25 Moonless

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 11:12 AM

Would a thoughtless web, be a consciousness? I think that in order to be conscious we have to REACT to stimuli, and decide whether or NOT it is good or bad for us. I believe that our reaction to those stimuli decides right and wrong. I am very thankful that so far as I can see, that the majority still knows good from bad, and how that effects the entirety of "US" There is a world of anger and hate out there, and I still hope, and perceive, that the majority will choose for the best, and evolve all of "US" to a better place than which we live in now. I also wonder nowadays if the people that promote the positive are still in control, because the balance seems to be turning towards the bad as I look at the world now. Reality IS changing, make it change for the better of us by appreciating the positive things and acting in the real world in a positive way.  

I'm thinking of the spider making its web not through consciously observing but from instinct, would this web made entirely of instinct be thoughtless? Assuming it is, then we might be able to attribute consciousness to the unconscious. In fact as humans it seems to be the case that most of our life choices are weighted with a predetermination of some sorts, where the meta-cognition "Why did I react the way I did" comes after the choosing and execution of the act itself. Is this scenario mostly unconscious?

 

So I must ask is our ability to hesitate our habitual body and do meta-cognition before we execute an action make us a conscious being? or is consciousness merely an aspect of the process of being alive. Like all of us have said, that consciousness must be something to do with observation (Alder: "Doesn't the observer effect in particle physics seem to show us that nothing exists outside of consciousness?  Is the individual observer flipping an outcome in a laboratory experiment proof of a stand-alone consciousness?") as well as what is becoming aware (Crazy1: To me, consciousness is in everything that we see, touch, smell or taste. It is more like the "life source" of all things, but are they really here?"). But what it is and the possibilites of everything having it is still the great mystery.


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#26 Coopdog

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 12:36 PM

My Lakota friend right before he passed told me he could not wait to go experience the great mystery. I have often wondered just what the afterlife is to a man like him. I think our consciousness decides what our afterlife will be like in a way, and he had one of the most amazing minds and spirit that I have had the pleasure of interacting with. Every visit was like a lesson from one of the old masters. He would go into sort of a trance state and speak so low that you could barely make out what he was saying, and when that happened it was like something much bigger was speaking through him. 

 

That brings me to another aspect of consciousness, and that involves our directly effecting it with our minds in an intentional way. Intentionally changing that wave to a particle and deciding where it will hit the wall in a sense. I have witnessed many things done with Chi or Prana, or intent, whatever you want to call it. The subtle energy of the universe. I have believed that we are creatures made entirely of energy and that we are meant to manipulate and effect that energy in a conscious way. Whether we are "meant" to or not I guess is irrelevent, but I know that we can do this. In a way we are creating reality. Molding it like clay. I sense this is how the power of attraction works that the movie "The Secret" is about. Creating through intent is one powerful force that can have a genuine effect on our lives. It is all damn interesting...


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#27 Alder Logs

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 02:38 PM

All the separateness that seems to be in our apprehension of this world/universe gets there through our perception.    We do not have to remain as these individuated identities, in this seeming life, or in our assumptions of an afterlife.


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#28 crazy1

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 03:35 PM

I think your point of our assumption of an afterlife is interesting.

 

Are you meaning in the sense of the major religions belief in a heaven? Or the other beliefs we return again and again?

To me there is something after this as we/our energy doesn't cease to exist. Energy doesn't dissipate, it "lives" on.

 

What or where or how this happens, is to me the Great Mystery (as Coops Lakota friend called it, I like that) is just that, a great mystery

 

Peace


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#29 Coopdog

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 01:39 AM

I have had MANY experiences with spirits or loved ones who lingered after death. I KNOW there is some sort of an afterlife. I am not a believer in heaven and hell, after digging into the origins of the bible and books that were written out of it and discarded, but I know we go on to some sort of continuance. I am fairly sure we come back again and again, as my daughter had some profound things to say when she was three, so reincarnation became one of the possibilities that I can believe in. 

 

I do also believe in some sort of collective conscious, and that it is very possible we are all different pieces of it living our lives in order for it to grow and evolve. That possibly explains (To me anyhow) the wide spectrum of human personality and even the evil ones out there. The consciousness has to do it all to experience it all, and I believe it evolves with our reactions to these things, good and bad. I like to think that is why most people are good, because we mostly all are repulsed by the vileness of the evil ones. This also brings me to have to say that it is all just experience, and that WE assign the tags good and evil to different things. In the immortal words of Morticia Adams... "What is normal to the spider is chaos to the fly!" I figure some famous wordsmith said it first but she is where I heard it lol


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#30 Alder Logs

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 09:33 AM

Am I experiences, or what is experiencing?  Experiences are not what is aware, conscious.  They are objects to a subject of experience.  An experience comes, and goes.  What was on the scene prior to, and then seems to remain after?  What's Its place in time?

 

I know I have experienced.  Is it because I have experiences, or because there is a knowing of the knowing of experiences?   Is there an experiencing of being aware?  Of course there sure seems to be.  Who or what has this knowing of knowing?  Can we corral it with an itemization of its attributes?  Can I say it's me, this body/mind, now sitting at a keyboard?  Would that be the Truth of It, or a limiting of It?  

 

Can we find letting ourselves be, dropping our self-imposed limitations of identifying as the hopelessly constrained ideas of who and what we think we are?  We are not, nor could we ever be, what is thought or believed in any system of ideas.  We already know What Is, but then we identify as this or that, and forever miss the mark. 

 

Consciousness is, but what it is?  Here I do a hand-off, because I didn't come up with the words before this expression in the form of an Indian tobacconist did:

 

The discovery of truth is in the discernment of the false.
You can know what is not.

What is - you can only be.
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

Nisargadatta_Maharaj.jpg


Edited by Alder Logs, 31 October 2019 - 09:44 AM.

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#31 crazy1

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 11:55 AM

Am I experiences, or what is experiencing?  Experiences are not what is aware, conscious.  They are objects to a subject of experience.  An experience comes, and goes.  What was on the scene prior to, and then seems to remain after?  What's Its place in time?

 

I know I have experienced.  Is it because I have experiences, or because there is a knowing of the knowing of experiences?   Is there an experiencing of being aware?  Of course there sure seems to be.  Who or what has this knowing of knowing?  Can we corral it with an itemization of its attributes?  Can I say it's me, this body/mind, now sitting at a keyboard?  Would that be the Truth of It, or a limiting of It?  

 

 

 

Alder, this is my take on what you're saying, I think.

 

"we" are here and here to learn something or help teach another/others learn something, possibly both. We wrote our own story so our "Higher Selves" would learn a lesson. Some of us, myself in this bunch, thought it was a creative writing class and wrote one really "adventurous" story. Silly us lol

 

So yes, the experiences, knowing, feeling, acting on, observing and "seeing" is done by the energy which we are. The Higher Self that gets to experience the Great Mystery, dang I really love that. 

 

We can NOT be corralled or held back in any way unless we wrote it into our story. Each and every moment we are living in this carnation of "us" we are experiencing our "reality". And somehow for some reason, we have chosen to interact with the other energies we are "involved" with at that certain time. But they wrote us into their stories as well. The web is infinite and inter-tangled, but it is what it is. The story of "us" and the experiences we "signed up" for so to speak.

 

Peace


Edited by crazy1, 31 October 2019 - 11:56 AM.

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#32 Coopdog

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 12:40 PM

Early on here I said I couldn't wait for AlderLogs to chime in on this thread. Alder, my friend, you have an amazing mind and I love how you make me question my own thoughts. You have an awesome way of taking it one more step and making me look at it all from a non-objective sort of way. This has been one interesting thread. 

 

And here we sit, at our keyboards...consciousness...examining ourself through the consciousness of others hoping to learn more from others who have put a lot of thought into their own consciousness. The irony and abstract unbelievability of that is staggering in itself. THIS is the Great Mystery...revel in it while you can...


Edited by Coopdog, 31 October 2019 - 12:42 PM.

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#33 Alder Logs

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 01:11 PM

 

Some of us, myself in this bunch, thought it was a creative writing class and wrote one really "adventurous" story. Silly us

 

This made a smile.  What happened to this expression five years ago this month, after 67 years was, I simply saw how I had thought I was my story.  Seeing that, I was freed (if I so wished to be) of its hypnotic power.  A story is made of nothing (except beliefs that will shift and change in any way to keep the story functioning), I, the seeing, being, knowing of knowing, could not be that.  Yet, what I truly am is nothing.  But, it's a more genuine nothing, as it pretends no attributes or merit.   Knowing the knowing of simply being, we reenter the play, as it is, not demanding it be other than it is, thankful for the opportunities and challenges.   I will see this body/mind end, but as the seeing itself, not as the body/mind.


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#34 crazy1

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 01:33 PM

I believe I understand what you're saying. It's not too much different, but I can't write as eloquently or clearly as you Alder.

 

Thank you my friend

 

I truly appreciate you


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#35 Alder Logs

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 01:53 PM

The dear online friend who years ago advised me to, "stay as the witness," (which I have paraphrased to, "stay as the witnessing," in an attempt to make it verbing, rather than a noun), which was the conscious key I turned that opened me to seeing the falseness of me, as story, sent me a video link just this morning.   I have posted that video over in Pearls of Wisdom.  Please enjoy it with me.


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#36 crazy1

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 02:01 PM

Thank you very much

 

Peace


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#37 crazy1

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 02:14 PM

If it's the one I just liked that gave me a bit to think about. I agree with the speaker though.

 

Thank you

 

Peace



#38 Alder Logs

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 03:52 PM

If it's the one I just liked that gave me a bit to think about. I agree with the speaker though.

 

Thank you

 

Peace

 

It would be the last one in the thread. The BodhiAvasa interview.  It is indeed a pearl, a gem, in my opinion, and from my experience.

 

This one:

 

[Direct Link]


Edited by Alder Logs, 31 October 2019 - 03:55 PM.

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#39 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 07:19 PM

 

 

How do Salmon know exactly what stream to navigate back to when it is time to spawn, how do birds know how to build a nest or migrate south in the winter and North in the summer? We consider them dumb animals, or some do, but I think they are just as conscious as we are. 

 

 

 

It is encoded in our dna. The house cat has been domesticated for thousands of years and still has not lost that instinct to want to hunt and kill.

 

 I believe I read an experiment where they shocked an adult mouse in response to a stimuli, here we go.. 

 

https://reset.me/sto...ssed-ancestors/

 

"A 2013 study from Emory University found that  mice trained to fear a specific odor would pass their emotions on to their offspring and future generations. Scientists applied electric shocks to mice as they exposed them to the smell of cherry blossoms. The mice then bred, and both the children and grandchildren of the affected rodents demonstrated a fear of cherry blossoms the first time they smelled them"

 

 

 

 

I would agree coop, animals sure feel conscious to me. Where do we draw the line for what is considered to be conscious or not.  I think it is a very complex question. Is self awareness a mandatory trait of consciousness, if so what role does our unconscious mind then play 

 

In regards to animals, one test they try to gauge this is, does an animal recognize itself in a mirror?

 

http://www.animalcog...he-mirror-test/

  

 

What is the main criteria? Intelligence, that is a very sticky subject indeed. Our definition of animal intelligence is very dated. We have based our assumptions on the animals inability to perform our tasks. Some have shown promise but we dismiss the intelligence of others due to their failure. When the reality is if we were to try to engage in some of their tasks we would find the same results.

 

 For example the humming bird has an insane memory necessary to conserve energy to survive That little helicopter bird uses a ton of energy to fly around like that from flower to flower. So they need efficiency when gathering nectar . The bird must remember what flowers it has visited and how long ago it visited them. It must allow enough time for the nectar to replenish or its a wasted trip. A human with the aid of multiple stop watch's would not stand a chance against the tiny humming bird brain. 

 

We have grown to understand the massive networks vegetation have in the ecosystem. Tree's will share nutrients with another via the network of root's joined together. One tree suffered intentional damage in an experiment. The other tree's in the network stunt their growth in an effort to help the other recover. That idea in avatar is very real. I thought another very interesting thing was insects using the roots to communicate with other insects. These aphids would vibrate and send an alarm to near by ant's that a predator bug was in their midst. The territorial ants would come and exterminate the deadly threat for the aphids

 

To go even further down very basic multi cellular and unicellular life which has proven to be able to more efficiently organize a model of some of our subway systems. They can find the quickest ways out of a maze as well. 

 

https://www.geek.com...a-maze-1454089/

 

Does one need intelligence to be conscious... 

 

 

So when we think of our bodies. They are this multi cellular organism that works together to make us. Millions of little particles and atoms somehow all attracted to each other to keep us intact. There is the conscious being that sort of oversee's the operation of the machine. Not so much the operation as the choice maker. The unconscious mind is doing all the hard work, we are more of the viewer at the movie. 

 

 What if the universe is the same thing. We are all just parts in some larger machine that we will never be able to perceive or realize. Just like the tiny atom's that fly around the nucleus. Does our perceivable universe also hold some sort of grand conscious, I suppose that could be considered a god to many. 

 

 

Okay time to read not write for me... it's officially one vape bag to many over here. 

 

 

 

Here is a interesting clip from the top link

 

Beyond The Physical Realm

 

The idea of memories being written into DNA could provoke speculation about phenomenon like visions of past lives, although it might be a leap to go from a reaction to odor to the recall of specific and discrete memories.

Polish Professor of Pedogogy Andrzej Szyszko-Bohusz has worked since the 1960s to promote a theory of genetic immortality in which parental consciousness is transmitted to children along with DNA and other hereditary information. More recently, University of Virginia (UVA) professor Jim Tucker hypothesizes that consciousness needs no physical binding at all to pass on. Tucker, who studies children who have memories of past lives, claims that quantum physics suggests that our physical world is created by our consciousness. Therefore, consciousness doesn’t need the world, let alone a brain, to exist, and could simply affix itself to a new brain once it passes out of a dying one.

“I understand the leap it takes to conclude there is something beyond what we can see and touch,” Tucker said to UVA Magazine. “But there is this evidence here that needs to be accounted for, and when we look at these cases carefully, some sort of carry-over of memories often makes the most sense.”

He calls it the science of reincarnation. Whether he is on the right track, or we discover that memories are passed down by DNA all along, or there is some other mechanism we don’t know about yet, is still to be determined.


Edited by flashingrooster, 31 October 2019 - 07:23 PM.

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#40 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 31 October 2019 - 07:47 PM

 

 

 

I have long loved the Native American term: Great Mystery.   I am very comfortable with not knowing anything.  Without judgment and opinion, nothing that is seemingly happening seems to change, except as I might perceive it.  What is bad from one perspective is a necessary good from another.  I have seen this to be true, for me.  So, yes, I might still find a deep knowing that some thing that arises in my sphere should be countered by a personal action, yet at the same time I see that personal involvement is not who and what I am.  I have come to let it be, so to speak.   The universe sends me my assignments, but I only suffer them to the extent I identify.   I know that I am nothing and without attributes.  But, I play something with attributes in this theater of human life at the moment.  It is all in the seeing which no I person owns. 

 

I am loving this experience of being, whatever the fuck it is.

 

 

[Direct Link]


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