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Myceliated Grain TEK


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#441 Jinroh

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Posted 03 October 2020 - 04:51 AM

Nice thoughts and suggestions-- thank you coorsmikey and Jinroh :cool:

 

And Jinroh, as far as the quantity factor (or space optimization, specifically) I can't imagine it would be a problem to stack several of the flattened bags on top of each other, or even lay them together sideways like books on a shelf. So long as the filter patch isn't blocked, it shouldn't matter much?

I would honestly think it could be a better way to pack in many more bags/lbs per cubic foot if they were thin and flat vs. fat and brick'ly since you'd be using all the bag interior that's wasted when in it's typical form -- I may try it both ways myself-- 

 

Either way, great conversation --

I can see this method possibly reducing condensation which can be a problem if it gets out of hand. The only issue I am thinking about is flattening the bag after sterilization and inoculation. The filter patches on the cheap bags I buy do not flow very well. I assume because they are .2 micron or low quality, which seems to be common with bags. I know the better quality bags have more options related to micron rating and bag shape/size. It takes a lot of care and patience to force out the air in my bags once they are sealed and inoculated. I have broken the heat seal on them in the past doing that. I would probably eliminate most of my bag issues with better quality bags. I can't seem to find good bags that come in small quantities since the really nice bags are sold in bulk to professional mushroom farms in lots of 500 or 1000+. I guess I should just bite the bullet and buy a lot and never have to worry about it again.  
 


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#442 coorsmikey

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Posted 03 October 2020 - 09:06 AM

I have had the myc colonize the filter patch but it seems more of problem when leaving stuff in there for long periods as you guys are talking about. For me, using as spawn they are not in the bags that long. With edibles such as lion mane I fruit right from the bag and have had mushroom grow out of the filter patch. You might do some experimenting to see if its an actual problem or just somewhat as an OCD annoying twerk.

 

I have a couple thousand mycobags I got from Unicorn which set me back a pretty good chunk of change. I am considering using a few as prizes for the Pumpkin Carving Contest if any of you feel like getting creative for the spooky holiday.


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#443 Jinroh

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Posted 03 October 2020 - 02:50 PM

I have had the myc colonize the filter patch but it seems more of problem when leaving stuff in there for long periods as you guys are talking about. For me, using as spawn they are not in the bags that long. With edibles such as lion mane I fruit right from the bag and have had mushroom grow out of the filter patch. You might do some experimenting to see if its an actual problem or just somewhat as an OCD annoying twerk.

 

I have a couple thousand mycobags I got from Unicorn which set me back a pretty good chunk of change. I am considering using a few as prizes for the Pumpkin Carving Contest if any of you feel like getting creative for the spooky holiday.

Those would make great prizes!



#444 Tom25

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 01:52 PM

Hey Jinroh, going on appearances and the smell of ammonia, that’s Aspergillus flavus, which is very effective at causing liver cancer. Good thing the smell tipped you off! My advice- stick to glass jars, they are less prone to contamination, and probably to rice, as it’s easier to properly sterilise than other grains. I put a square of tyvek over the jar lid for extra safety, held on by a rubber band, and so far no problems with my LM cultures.


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#445 coAsTal

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 02:24 PM

My advice- stick to glass jars, they are less prone to contamination, and probably to rice, as it’s easier to properly sterilise than other grains.

 

No disrespect meant, Tom25-- but I wonder why you say jars are less contam prone than mycobags-- there are countless experienced mycobag cultivators that prove year after year that this assertion is simply not true.

 

Proper sterile technique allows for any chosen container to produce clean projects.


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#446 DonShadow

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 03:30 PM

https://naldc.nal.us...IND43965604/PDF

 

This research paper suggests that spores of several species of mucor can survive 121C. It also says that one Aspergillus species survived 121C, though it doesn't state what species it was, and the document contradicts itself earlier by saying that all aspergillus spores were destroyed at 121C. I read elsewhere that spores of aflatoxin-producing aspergillus species like A. flavus can survive sterilization temperatures, but I can't for the life of me find the document again. Has anyone else seen any other papers on this topic?

 

I agree with Jinroh that two-cycle sterilization with a 48-hour incubation period in between is the right idea. I've been using this method for other projects and my contamination rate is zero. I'll modify the TEK to suggest this, and I'll also stress that proper micron filter discs are essential.

 

I don't think bags are a no-go, only that grain-to-grain inoculations poses too great a risk. Jinroh's method of bag inoculation seems perfectly safe to me. Still, IMHO bags are more suitable for folks with experience and proper sterilize workspaces. This TEK was designed to be user-friendly so that beginners could perform inoculations in open air with SHIP lids.


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#447 Jinroh

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 08:37 PM

Hey Jinroh, going on appearances and the smell of ammonia, that’s Aspergillus flavus, which is very effective at causing liver cancer. Good thing the smell tipped you off! My advice- stick to glass jars, they are less prone to contamination, and probably to rice, as it’s easier to properly sterilise than other grains. I put a square of tyvek over the jar lid for extra safety, held on by a rubber band, and so far no problems with my LM cultures.

We will see how this next batch fares... the batch when I started double sterilizing. I know that most professional mushroom grow operations use bags, so they can't be that prone to contamination. I think my contamination issues are due to mistakes made by myself rather than the bags.


Edited by Jinroh, 06 October 2020 - 02:56 AM.

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#448 Tom25

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 02:03 PM

There’s a ton of bag v jar arguments. There are good bags (like my grandmother) and bad bags (mother in law). But any bag can develop a pinhole leak and no jar can. So for this technique I’m for jars. For spawn to fruit I prefer bags because you can knead.

 

 

My advice- stick to glass jars, they are less prone to contamination, and probably to rice, as it’s easier to properly sterilise than other grains.

 

No disrespect meant, Tom25-- but I wonder why you say jars are less contam prone than mycobags-- there are countless experienced mycobag cultivators that prove year after year that this assertion is simply not true.

 

Proper sterile technique allows for any chosen container to produce clean projects.

 


Edited by Tom25, 08 October 2020 - 02:10 PM.

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#449 Tom25

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 02:08 PM

The DonShadow two step may be ok for whole oats but have you tried it with rice? Don’t it turn into mush? Alternative is pre soak the grain for 24-48 hrs to germinate any spores.
 

Hospital autoclaves run at 121C and I can’t believe they wouldn’t kill Aspergillus spores....

 

 

https://naldc.nal.us...IND43965604/PDF

 

This research paper suggests that spores of several species of mucor can survive 121C. It also says that one Aspergillus species survived 121C, though it doesn't state what species it was, and the document contradicts itself earlier by saying that all aspergillus spores were destroyed at 121C. I read elsewhere that spores of aflatoxin-producing aspergillus species like A. flavus can survive sterilization temperatures, but I can't for the life of me find the document again. Has anyone else seen any other papers on this topic?

 

I agree with Jinroh that two-cycle sterilization with a 48-hour incubation period in between is the right idea. I've been using this method for other projects and my contamination rate is zero. I'll modify the TEK to suggest this, and I'll also stress that proper micron filter discs are essential.

 

I don't think bags are a no-go, only that grain-to-grain inoculations poses too great a risk. Jinroh's method of bag inoculation seems perfectly safe to me. Still, IMHO bags are more suitable for folks with experience and proper sterilize workspaces. This TEK was designed to be user-friendly so that beginners could perform inoculations in open air with SHIP lids.



#450 Jinroh

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 08:36 PM

Hello all,

It has been a while but I have only just now harvested a few more bags of grain. Primarily due to laziness. LOL

These bags went a little longer than I wanted but you know how laziness goes. The bags are 150 days old and there is nothing to note any different than my previous harvests except for one improvement. I have not lost a single bag to contamination. It could be luck but ever since I started sterilizing then waiting for a 48 hour germination period, then sterilizing the grain again, I have not lost a single bag. And some of the bags were very large (averaging between 10 to 12 pounds).

For this TEK, I will definitely be double PC'ing my grain bags from now on. I finally started the 200 proof (food grade) alcohol extraction last week. I plan to let the grain soak for a month before heating and filtering. That seemed to have the best results rather than just an immediate few hours on low heat with un-soaked grain like my last attempt.. :thumbs_up:


Edited by Jinroh, 17 November 2020 - 08:38 PM.

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#451 badabing

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 12:41 AM

I read this thread all the way though over the the last couple of days. Interesting.

 

Has there been any progress identifying other species for the tek ? I'm interested in trying 

this but there isn't commercial availability of semperviva/hoogshagenii spores that I've found.

I'm working with wood lovers now as well as stone producers, but it seems like the former aren't

good candidates and the latter are sub-optimal.

 

As a person kibitzing from the sidelines, I wonder if anyone has considered semilanceata as a

candidate ? It has a lot going for it - strong as hell, low body load clean experience and known

for low degradation when prepared (drying, making tea, etc.). I don't have any semilanceata

materia to work with either, but it is my personal favorite. If it was active as mycelium on grain

I'd guess it could be a favorite. 


Edited by badabing, 21 November 2020 - 12:43 AM.

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#452 Mushinist

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 10:32 AM

I do have some semilanceata LC, so I will try this out next next go around if I can get it to grow out on grain.
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#453 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 11:18 AM

I've been starting various species on 1lb of rice including semilanceata and some woodlovers. Hopefully I'll have results in a few more months.
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