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PF Tek and Potency - try again


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#81 adrian118

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 01:40 PM

Pins!

Hard to see but there are two there.. phew.

This grow has been trying; second guessing every step lol.

Was about to move them into a different FC because I started feeling like things were stalling again.

But humidity is high in the bin according to my hygrometer so.... 

 

Guess these genetics are jus real slower/less aggressive than the past cubes Ive grown

 

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#82 adrian118

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 03:48 PM

Ditched the SGFC on Sat... things have been moving nicely ever since.

Not the greatest first flush but better than it was looking in the sgfc.

As long as I can get some prints of this strain, Ill be plan on growing it out on grain next time, or cakes again jus without so many mistakes lol 

 

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#83 TVCasualty

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 03:56 PM

My first efforts didn't succeed at all for nearly two years after I started trying to grow mushrooms. But I learned a whole lot about mold and bacteria during that time.

 

So you're doing very well, all things considered.


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#84 Soliver

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 04:38 PM

My first three efforts were a mold farm - first fruits I got were from Hip's 'Neglect Tek,' which about killed me (the waiting!) ...

 

SGFCs are all the rage these days, I guess.  I don't get it, but obviously it works for some people - maybe if you have your FC fully loaded with cakes it'll stay humid with all those holes?  Beats me - seems counter-intuitive, but perhaps if you never crack the lid to check & keep the humidity up that way, but who doesn't check their tubs at least three times a day after birthing?  Maybe it's just me, but I LIKE babying my grows, and 3x / day is hard enough - I'd sleep inside the damn tub if I'd fit ...

 

I mean, we're not growing oysters in them tubs ... 3x / day fanning & misting always did it for me with a regular tub, and after your grow you can refill it with dirty laundry, gummi bears, or dismembered prostitutes. 

 

Potency is soooo strain dependent, and with MultiSpore (I'm sure someone's already mentioned this but I'm too lazy to read 5 pages) you're throwing hundreds or thousands of potential strains into that jar.  The one that wins the fight may select for vigor but not potency.

 

I'm not sure semen is an appropriate analogy, but ya never know which swimmer is gonna beat down all his brothers.  That fast sperm may also carry a nascent racist gene, or the fire-starting gene, or a proclivity to watch NASCAR and leave the toilet seat up, but not be good at much else.

 

Which is why I cloned my children - I'd suggest starting some research into fungal cloning so when you get a good batch, you can be sure to save them genetics, otherwise you may open your tub to find all your little buddies in blackface, drinking Busch Lite and using vermiculite pellets to build a wall between tubs.

 

:)

 

soliver


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#85 adrian118

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Posted 18 December 2019 - 05:29 PM

First of the Oakridge fruits I pulled.. interesting cap/veil look, not seen this in person before; cap not opening much before the veil begins to tear.

Rest of them look like theyll show similar trait. Got a couple fruits of larger size that I plan on letting open more fully to take prints.

 

IMG_8477.JPG


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#86 TVCasualty

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Posted 18 December 2019 - 09:07 PM

SGFCs are all the rage these days, I guess.  I don't get it, but obviously it works for some people - maybe if you have your FC fully loaded with cakes it'll stay humid with all those holes? 


It could be the case that SGFCs are only experiencing a slight resurgence in popularity because interest in mushrooms is surging and noobs are finding old Teks and don't bother to put in the time researching the state of the art before putting out their kits and videos.
 
Also, it might be to justify the sale of a kit since a "kit" that consists of an overpriced unmodified bin that you can get at Mal-Wart for much less cost wouldn't sell very well. But if a hopeful new grower sees a custom modified thingy being sold for it then it must be what folks need to grow 'em or it wouldn't be part of the kit, right?
 
 
 

Potency is soooo strain dependent, and with MultiSpore (I'm sure someone's already mentioned this but I'm too lazy to read 5 pages) you're throwing hundreds or thousands of potential strains into that jar.  The one that wins the fight may select for vigor but not potency.



I have a couple questions about MS grows that I would be VERY curious to know the answers to.
 
One involves hyphal anastomosis. With a dark/opaque spore syringe like mine usually are, we're probably initially getting tens of millions of strains (after hundreds of millions of monokaryons combine into dikaryotic strains) in every BRF jar.
 
But when compatible strains of mycelium meet, they fuse and exchange genetic material (among other things) to form what I guess is a kind of hybrid between the two dikaryotic strains.


post-102948-0-05300300-1576720094.jpeg

 

 

In mycology, anastomosis is the fusion between branches of the same or different hyphae. Hence the bifurcating fungal hyphae can form true reticulating networks. By sharing materials in the form of dissolved ions, hormones, and nucleotides, the fungus maintains bidirectional communication with itself. The fungal network might begin from several origins; several spores, several points of penetration, each a spreading circumference of absorption and assimilation. Once encountering the tip of another expanding, exploring self, the tips press against each other in pheromonal recognition, fusing to form a genetic singular that can cover hectares called a genet.  

For fungi, anastomosis is also sex. In some fungi, two different haploid mating types - if compatible - merge. Somatically, they form a morphologically similar mycelial wave front that continues to grow and explore. The significant difference, is that in each septated unit is binucleate, containing two unfused nuclei, i.e. one from each parent that do not undergo karyogamy.

 

[Emphasis mine]

 

That last line is pretty interesting. I wonder what happens when a mycelial wave front that has already undergone anastomosis meets another expanding wave front that has also undergone anastomosis? Do the septated units become "quadnucleate" or does one dominate the other and replace the weaker nuclei with those of the more dominant strain?

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that the difference between MS and isolates might be a lot more complicated than it seems. I suspect it is.

 

I suppose doing DNA sequencing would be enlightening; grow two strains, each on a separate petri dish. Make each one a cross of two strains of monokaryotic mycelium so we know that anastomosis has not taken place yet. Sequence the DNA of both dikaryotic strains. Then transfer some of each to a third dish and let the colonies grow into each other. Wait a day or two for things to take their course. Or not; I have no idea if that matters (testing repeatedly over several days might be interesting too; how long does the migration of nuclei through a colony really take?). Then sequence the DNA from the region where the strains contacted each other as well as from where both original transfers were placed. 

 

That could be very revealing depending on what's found. Based on my understanding of anastomosis, I would expect the same DNA to be found in all three tests of the combined strains. Which essentially makes it a de facto isolate, though it may be binucleate but it's not clear if mycelium from a cloned specimen would be binucleate as well if it was originally cloned from a MS grow.

 

And when a strain possesses two unfused nuclei, which one determines growth characteristics, potency, etc.?

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#87 adrian118

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Posted 19 December 2019 - 03:49 PM

Interesting stuff TV, and on the topic of multi-spore inoculation I have a confession to make...

 

During this grow my first mistake was made while preparing my spore water. The print I had planned to use ended up being very light and difficult to scrape. So to increase my chances of success I brought in another print, which i knew was dark and basically mixed that in with the other spores. Now I had two different cube strains in one spore syringe :) I figured one would dominate the other and I would end up with that one only. This all seemed to me an interesting experiment regardless of outcome.

And now looking at this flush... am I seeing both strains fruiting? They look very different to me.  Thick, fat and dark capped fruits next to the thin, long and light capped fruits. What do you guys think?

 

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#88 FunG

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Posted 19 December 2019 - 08:08 PM

If a cubensis gets mixed in with cubensis then it's just mixed genetics more so then a cross breed.

A cross breed is like pe6 pe mixed with Texas or albino penis envy, or columbian rust (a redboy bred with something else to produce a orangeish spore) from what I remember in order to cross breed they need to have very unique characteristic to begin with and single spores are taken from each speciman and the cellular walls are destabilized with snake venom to allow monokaryotic and dykaryotic to meet.

Dont quote me on all that egghead jazz stuff, I'm not that advanced, evidently.

But that's what it would take to label something a mutation, right now it's just multispore.
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#89 adrian118

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Posted 19 December 2019 - 11:38 PM

FunG, Im not suggesting that this would be a cross breed, but is it possibly BOTH strains have colonized succefully and are fruiting individually? I stacked the cakes so its a little hard ot discern if any single cake is fruiting a specific trait.

 

Il admit, it has been a lil while since i grew anything but i dont recall the fruits ever looking this different from each other on the same flush..... regardless this flush is pretty cool looking. 

 

IMG_8497.JPG


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#90 Soliver

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Posted 20 December 2019 - 03:00 PM

Those fruits do look different - is that a function of time harvested and / or the gazillion possible factors ... or ...

 

Different strains?  Anytime you pop MS into PF jars, you're essentially growing out separate substrains, but they should all be morphologically similar, more or less.

 

No telling without cra-cra lab work.  I'm always happy when a grow ends in shrooms, so there's a celebration  :)

 

Per usual, TV has gone way over my head - this time with some "anastomosis" shit that will probably keep me awake tonight.  THANKS, Tv ... just what a guy needed ...

 

:)

 

soliver


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#91 FunG

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Posted 20 December 2019 - 03:28 PM

My bad adrian118, and yea those do look like two different p.cubensis.
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#92 adrian118

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Posted 21 December 2019 - 12:57 AM

Those fruits do look different - is that a function of time harvested and / or the gazillion possible factors ... or ...

 

Different strains?  Anytime you pop MS into PF jars, you're essentially growing out separate substrains, but they should all be morphologically similar, more or less.

 

Yea, who knows... Im taking prints of each and making notes. We will find out later if they repeat the same traits. 

 

Definitely cause for celebration! Will be a good holiday break. :)


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#93 TVCasualty

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Posted 21 December 2019 - 05:15 PM

Per usual, TV has gone way over my head - this time with some "anastomosis" shit that will probably keep me awake tonight.  THANKS, Tv ... just what a guy needed ...

 

You know, while replying to this I got a sense of deja vu, and so I did a quick check and this is what I found from 2006: https://mycotopia.ne...f-same-species/

 

 

Anyway, anastomosis is defined as both a form of "same-self fusion" (which is how those reticulating mycelial networks form) AND is a form of sexual reproduction. Cogitate on THAT for a while.  :blink:


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#94 Soliver

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Posted 23 December 2019 - 09:24 AM

Usually when my mycelial network reticulates, there's no sexual reproduction  :(  Once again, the fungal world has me beat ...

 

Damn - back from 2006 and we still don't have a good DNA test for these friends ... wonder if you can send a sample in to 23andME ??

 

Probably just find out that your chosen strain was a serial rapist back in the 80s.  Sometimes not knowing is best.

 

:)

 

soliver


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#95 TVCasualty

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Posted 23 December 2019 - 10:36 AM


Damn - back from 2006 and we still don't have a good DNA test for these friends ... wonder if you can send a sample in to 23andME ??

 


Probably just find out that your chosen strain was a serial rapist back in the 80s.  Sometimes not knowing is best.

I like it! That would be fascinating to try just to see what would happen.

 

But with my luck the Men in Black would show up (the real ones) demanding to know where I parked my spaceship.



#96 TVCasualty

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Posted 23 December 2019 - 10:47 AM


 

And now looking at this flush... am I seeing both strains fruiting? They look very different to me.  Thick, fat and dark capped fruits next to the thin, long and light capped fruits. What do you guys think?

Anything I could offer in terms of possible explanation would be completely speculative since we still lack that DNA testing capability.

 

That said, it sure does look like you've got more than one distinct substrain fruiting there. It's ridiculously complicated since there are specific dominant morphological traits associated with specific strains (genetically-stabilized albino spores are likely to produce albino mushrooms, PF Classics are likely to produce weird stuff and be tough to get prints from, etc.) but then all mulitspore grows are also going to at least initially start out with countless unique substrains that may or may not cross with other substrains, and may or may not eventually see one dominate the rest in a given substrate.

 

I'm just glad that the mushrooms have worked all this out for us so we can grow them without really knowing what the hell we're actually doing.


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#97 adrian118

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 02:37 PM

Wow, thank you for these great replies! Its so interesting how these things grow, and only gets more intriguing the more you experiment *fuck up* lol

 

The cakes back in the FC and already showing second flush pins.


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#98 adrian118

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 03:03 PM

Starting to pic this second flush and noticing some deformities i.e.; twisted, striped, hollow stipe. pics below.

 

What I've read is that it could be basically any of these... 

 - normal for indoor grows

 - due too much moisture/not enough FAE

 - verticillium

 

IMG_8650.JPG IMG_8651.JPG IMG_8652.JPG IMG_8653.JPG

 

Whats the consensus? Ive been taking prints in this flush and wondering if i should toss them or not.

 

Thanks everyone!



#99 Sicshroom

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 09:22 PM

I'd eat em. Got any agar? A still air box or anything to take a clone from? Are you using 4oz jars? If so maybe got some wide mouth pint jars and try again with large amounts of substrate




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