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Must I wait for pinning before fruiting?


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#1 rstranger

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 05:19 PM

Hi there! This is my first successful attempt (so far) after a failed attempt last year. I have 2 half pint jars BRF, with the intention of Chronic Tek for fruiting. It took 15 days for the jars to colonize (visibly fill sides and underside of jar), and now I'm on the sixth wait day after that step.

 

My question: Tomorrow will be one week wait time after colonization. There are no signs of pinning. Closet temp 72 degrees. Do I need to wait until pinning? Or shall I go ahead and dunk for 24 hours, then go into fruiting mode?

 

Also, there is a little pooling of water/condensation at bottom of jars, less than 1/8". From what I've learned in these threads, that is normal. Things look beautiful and healthy, bright white, no discoloration.

 

Thank you.



#2 Moonless

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 06:16 PM

Everything checks out. I usually do 7 to 10 days of waiting with grain, 8-11 for PF tek since it takes a little longer to colonize. Your probably good to birth it at this stage, doesn't hurt to wait though as most vetrans of this tek wait until pins. If you decide to wait, in the meantime you could get two more jars done for the future?



#3 CatsAndBats

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 06:19 PM

Hi there! This is my first successful attempt (so far) after a failed attempt last year. I have 2 half pint jars BRF, with the intention of Chronic Tek for fruiting. It took 15 days for the jars to colonize (visibly fill sides and underside of jar), and now I'm on the sixth wait day after that step.

 

My question: Tomorrow will be one week wait time after colonization. There are no signs of pinning. Closet temp 72 degrees. Do I need to wait until pinning? Or shall I go ahead and dunk for 24 hours, then go into fruiting mode?

 

Also, there is a little pooling of water/condensation at bottom of jars, less than 1/8". From what I've learned in these threads, that is normal. Things look beautiful and healthy, bright white, no discoloration.

 

Thank you.

 

No, I'm not sure that I've ever waited for pins on cakes.


Edited by CatsAndBats, 25 November 2019 - 06:20 PM.

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#4 macgyver

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 06:23 PM

Go for it! I've had some cakes in my SGFC for 10 days now and just saw my first pin on day 8! Jars colonized for nearly a month.



#5 rstranger

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 08:23 PM

Thanks for your input—I think I'll give it until Thanksgiving, then do a 24 hour dunk. Really looking forward to the next stage!


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#6 coorsmikey

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 10:48 PM

I've never in all my years around mushroom cultivation seen any fruiting without pinning first. Even when folks think their mushrooms won't grow if they don't induce fruiting. I  am glad to see someone actually considering a another way to look at the possibilities. But the fact is Yes, Everyone waits until pinning before fruiting. The is not which came first? The chicken or the egg lol. The pin came before the mushroom! You will not have "fruits" a moment before pinning and you will have to wait for pins to have "fruits".

 

Now I get that maybe the OP thinks they can make them fruit and that its feels good to think that it would not fruit without them. It happens in nature without a human "Inducing fruiting condition" so it feel great to think they couldn't fruit without our help, and maybe their very survival depends on us. I can even provide some pics of a grow where I commanded fruiting so I'm bay far not trying to say it can't be done. I am only saying for better results in most cases with less than experienced cultivators, they may benefit from "waiting for pinning. (I'm truly excited that someone actually took it in enough to question it here) The evidence I have of commanding fruits to grow vs coincidence of timing is very poor results. Now if I was on my first grow and super stoked to see anything grow at all, I may be happy with the fact I had a single mushroom grow, Right? How would I know any different? Like damn it was a success and I have no idea if it could have been better or not. Ah enough beating that dead horse :deadhorse:

Think about this. Maybe look at some videos or ask around. What is the mycelium doing before it begins the reproductive cycle? Do you think there may be a possibility that it could be breaking down and storing nutrients to help support the chances of reproducing? What do you think happens if the mycelium thinks this cycle is coming to end or you can trick it into thinking that it should fruit now? Do you imagine that it will have had the chance to assimilate all the energy possible to increase the best possible odds of insuring survival of the species and not the colony, either way it will try to produce offspring. Maybe it only had the energy stored to produce a single mushroom with the cap the size of a dime. Maybe some cultivators consider that better than a complete fail? Ah shit my ADD has kicked in. There is nothing I could say to influence a desire for better results. I have some pics of a sub that I spawned and then forced it in to fruiting on day one. They are pretty awesome! I literally have mushrooms growing off single grains the two days after spawning.  I mean screw that 7 day rule right? I can have mushrooms in two days. Yeah! Ha lets see right? I bet you can guess how well this tub did. Well I didn't bother to take any more pics lol. I wonder if gave this tub a dunk or perhaps misted it if it would have done any better? Perhaps more light? All in all got 1.5 gr dried from it definitely a success right?

IMG_3460.JPG

IMG_3461.JPG


Edited by coorsmikey, 25 November 2019 - 11:02 PM.

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#7 macgyver

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 09:03 AM

Hm I always thought that if you put a tub into fruiting conditions from day 1 it would still have to be close to 100% colonized before it started pinning, and you would just be at a higher risk for contamination. Maybe it is a common misconception but this is something I grappled with a lot the first few tubs I tried. I have seen a lot of people say that fresh air exchange, light, evaporation and a drop in CO2 are secondary pinning triggers and pinning won't really start until full colonization is achieved. Like you said above storing and breaking down nutrients.

 

In any event, based on your persistent advice on this topic, I waited to see a decent amount of pins before introducing fruiting conditions on my last mini tub and was really happy with the results!


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#8 Stencill86

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 09:25 AM

It’s always best to make sure it’s at 110% before fruiting it, letting it start to pin is a sure sign of being done as long as youve kept it in incubating mode. If it gets too much fae before it’s done colonizing it’ll start to fruit and stop eating up the sub, that’s when you’ll get contams, or maybe 1 shitty flush at best.
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#9 PJammer24

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 10:13 AM

You aren't going to harvest mushrooms any sooner by birthing prior to seeing pins... Mushroom substrates fruit when they are fully colonized and there is no longer a nutrient source for the myc to expand to... When the substrate has been FULLY colonized and consolidated, it will fruit... Why take the risk of removing it?

 

By removing it, you are opening yourself to a greater risk of contamination...

 

By removing it, you may find that the center of the cake falls out because it wasn't fully colonized when you thought it was...

 

By removing it, you have to be concerned with making sure it remains hydrated...

 

By removing it, you are only giving yourself more things to worry about and you aren't going to produce mushrooms more quickly... You aren't going to induce fruiting any sooner. The fruiting process begins when the nutrient source has been consumed... That's pretty much it... If it is fruiting and it has not fully colonized, its because there is some type of competitor like bacteria... There is absolutely no benefit to removing the cake from the jar prior to seeing pins... Can you do it? Sure you can... But there is really no reason to and there are a few reasons not to... I would prefer my cake to remain "snug as a bug in a rug" in the jar where I don't have to do anything with it until the last possible moment if it isn't going to fruit any faster for me by removing it.



#10 macgyver

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 10:37 AM

Yeah, as with everything in this hobby you just have to be patient. Probably the most important thing that I've learned so far in doing this is patience! I think OP is on the right track for sure.

 

One thing I will say that I have noticed about BRF cakes, IME they take a very long time to go from visibly 100% on the exterior to fully consolidated and ready to fruit. That probably has something to do with the many variables that can be different from person to person, but I have seen jars at 100% and they dont show pins for another couple weeks.


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#11 rstranger

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 10:41 AM

I'm glad I received more replies, and thank you for doing so.

 

My intention with this post wasn't to see if I could speed up the process, but rather to learn the best method. Now I have some solid answers based on science and direct experience.

 

I'll be waiting for pinning, simple as that. Good knowledge for a first-time grower. Much appreciated.


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#12 macgyver

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 10:44 AM

Good luck! You seem like you have the right idea, I'm sure they will turn out great. :meditate:


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#13 Dabluebonic

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 10:51 AM

I remember waking up a month ago to find pins on my first brf cake. Its like christmas morning. Like macgyver said, be patient bro those pins will show up when you least expect it. I also had a fruit go from a dry looking pin to a picture perfect mushroom just overnight!! Its amazing how fast/slow things will happen in this hobby. Keeping it in the jar untill w you see pins helps keep it hydrated.

#14 PJammer24

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 10:51 AM

I've never in all my years around mushroom cultivation seen any fruiting without pinning first. Even when folks think their mushrooms won't grow if they don't induce fruiting. I  am glad to see someone actually considering a another way to look at the possibilities. But the fact is Yes, Everyone waits until pinning before fruiting. The is not which came first? The chicken or the egg lol. The pin came before the mushroom! You will not have "fruits" a moment before pinning and you will have to wait for pins to have "fruits".

 

Now I get that maybe the OP thinks they can make them fruit and that its feels good to think that it would not fruit without them. It happens in nature without a human "Inducing fruiting condition" so it feel great to think they couldn't fruit without our help, and maybe their very survival depends on us. I can even provide some pics of a grow where I commanded fruiting so I'm bay far not trying to say it can't be done. I am only saying for better results in most cases with less than experienced cultivators, they may benefit from "waiting for pinning. (I'm truly excited that someone actually took it in enough to question it here) The evidence I have of commanding fruits to grow vs coincidence of timing is very poor results. Now if I was on my first grow and super stoked to see anything grow at all, I may be happy with the fact I had a single mushroom grow, Right? How would I know any different? Like damn it was a success and I have no idea if it could have been better or not. Ah enough beating that dead horse :deadhorse:

Think about this. Maybe look at some videos or ask around. What is the mycelium doing before it begins the reproductive cycle? Do you think there may be a possibility that it could be breaking down and storing nutrients to help support the chances of reproducing? What do you think happens if the mycelium thinks this cycle is coming to end or you can trick it into thinking that it should fruit now? Do you imagine that it will have had the chance to assimilate all the energy possible to increase the best possible odds of insuring survival of the species and not the colony, either way it will try to produce offspring. Maybe it only had the energy stored to produce a single mushroom with the cap the size of a dime. Maybe some cultivators consider that better than a complete fail? Ah shit my ADD has kicked in. There is nothing I could say to influence a desire for better results. I have some pics of a sub that I spawned and then forced it in to fruiting on day one. They are pretty awesome! I literally have mushrooms growing off single grains the two days after spawning.  I mean screw that 7 day rule right? I can have mushrooms in two days. Yeah! Ha lets see right? I bet you can guess how well this tub did. Well I didn't bother to take any more pics lol. I wonder if gave this tub a dunk or perhaps misted it if it would have done any better? Perhaps more light? All in all got 1.5 gr dried from it definitely a success right?

 

 

Can I get an explanation as to how you "induced fruiting"?? Baring a drastic temperature shift, I can not think of how one could induce fruiting prior to full colonization... Light certainly doesn't induce fruiting, Additional FAE doesn't induce fruiting... How would one go about force fruiting a sub? For a decade, I have colonized jars, spawned, watched the spawn run, and fruited in "fruiting conditions"... The only time I have seen something fruit prior to full colonization is when there was a contaminate issue....


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#15 RutgerHauer

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 11:03 AM

I think you really need to stress them. With extreme cold perhaps. I am curious too about what the method was.



#16 Stencill86

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 11:51 AM

There’s so much mixed up info here and nobody working together to give him the answer he’s looking for, just competing with who knows best.

#17 macgyver

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 12:15 PM

He has his answer and made his decision!

 

Edit: My advice was something that I have done and worked for me. What Mikey is saying correlates to my experience, my cakes are just starting to pin and fruit in the 8-10 day range meanwhile I was misting and fanning to help them maintain moisture. Maybe If I waited until I saw primordia to do my dunk and roll, the cakes would retain more initial moisture and I would have seen pins quicker and saved myself the time and effort of misting for almost two weeks

 

I'll try it out next time I fruit cakes. As they say, there's only one way to find out!


Edited by macgyver, 26 November 2019 - 12:19 PM.


#18 coorsmikey

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 12:16 PM

 

I've never in all my years around mushroom cultivation seen any fruiting without pinning first. Even when folks think their mushrooms won't grow if they don't induce fruiting. I  am glad to see someone actually considering a another way to look at the possibilities. But the fact is Yes, Everyone waits until pinning before fruiting. The is not which came first? The chicken or the egg lol. The pin came before the mushroom! You will not have "fruits" a moment before pinning and you will have to wait for pins to have "fruits".

 

Now I get that maybe the OP thinks they can make them fruit and that its feels good to think that it would not fruit without them. It happens in nature without a human "Inducing fruiting condition" so it feel great to think they couldn't fruit without our help, and maybe their very survival depends on us. I can even provide some pics of a grow where I commanded fruiting so I'm bay far not trying to say it can't be done. I am only saying for better results in most cases with less than experienced cultivators, they may benefit from "waiting for pinning. (I'm truly excited that someone actually took it in enough to question it here) The evidence I have of commanding fruits to grow vs coincidence of timing is very poor results. Now if I was on my first grow and super stoked to see anything grow at all, I may be happy with the fact I had a single mushroom grow, Right? How would I know any different? Like damn it was a success and I have no idea if it could have been better or not. Ah enough beating that dead horse :deadhorse:

Think about this. Maybe look at some videos or ask around. What is the mycelium doing before it begins the reproductive cycle? Do you think there may be a possibility that it could be breaking down and storing nutrients to help support the chances of reproducing? What do you think happens if the mycelium thinks this cycle is coming to end or you can trick it into thinking that it should fruit now? Do you imagine that it will have had the chance to assimilate all the energy possible to increase the best possible odds of insuring survival of the species and not the colony, either way it will try to produce offspring. Maybe it only had the energy stored to produce a single mushroom with the cap the size of a dime. Maybe some cultivators consider that better than a complete fail? Ah shit my ADD has kicked in. There is nothing I could say to influence a desire for better results. I have some pics of a sub that I spawned and then forced it in to fruiting on day one. They are pretty awesome! I literally have mushrooms growing off single grains the two days after spawning.  I mean screw that 7 day rule right? I can have mushrooms in two days. Yeah! Ha lets see right? I bet you can guess how well this tub did. Well I didn't bother to take any more pics lol. I wonder if gave this tub a dunk or perhaps misted it if it would have done any better? Perhaps more light? All in all got 1.5 gr dried from it definitely a success right?

 

 

Can I get an explanation as to how you "induced fruiting"?? Baring a drastic temperature shift, I can not think of how one could induce fruiting prior to full colonization... Light certainly doesn't induce fruiting, Additional FAE doesn't induce fruiting... How would one go about force fruiting a sub? For a decade, I have colonized jars, spawned, watched the spawn run, and fruited in "fruiting conditions"... The only time I have seen something fruit prior to full colonization is when there was a contaminate issue....

 

 

Glad you asked PJ. I do believe you nailed it with your question. That particular run of tubs was was done with an experiment I've had in mind for sometime now.You could say it was contaminated for the traditional point we are accustomed to with this hobby. The exception being the contaminant was intentional as the sub which was coco pith was left to ferment for about 8 months. It was cold pasteurized for three days, drained and allowed to remain at field capacity in buckets for the remainder of the time. Basically chasing the the natural resistance that coir has from contamination, I researched how coir is manufactured and continued to add to what I perceive happening. I could probably start a new topic on the idea if folks were interested but it is so against the grain of the common info that is regurgitated  over the years that it seems as nobody is interested. The experimenting continues to this day and has evolved into an idea of using the fermented substrate as a late casing.

But yes just bacteria induced premature pinning resulting in a very weak yield. All projects are exposed to light or I would not be able to see them. No other triggers are used.

 

There’s so much mixed up info here and nobody working together to give him the answer he’s looking for, just competing with who knows best.

 

What is the answer the OP is looking for? Does if feel like a competition if someones offers advice against what is interpreted from Youtube videos? BTW watch does 110% look like? I would interpret that in my mind as fully colonized  to the point it has started pinning, but that may considered 200% colonized to another?


Edited by coorsmikey, 26 November 2019 - 12:45 PM.

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#19 macgyver

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 12:24 PM

Start one! Sounds interesting but I'm very confused...


 

 


Edited by macgyver, 26 November 2019 - 12:24 PM.

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#20 RutgerHauer

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 02:13 PM

Stencill86, we are just talking, no competition going on - not every discussion is a competition you know.. Funny that you see it that way. Sometimes a discussion, or a conversation can help you learn something.

rstranger has clearly gotten an answer that it's best to wait until the mycelium is ready colonizing the substrate. No conflicting info there.




Thanks for sharing that info Mikey, this makes sense. Many questions pop up in my mind but will leave them out of this topic. Would like to see a topic of yours that goes a bit more into your ideas on why coco seems to have some contaminant resistance but I understand that you might be reluctant in doing much of that here.

Edited by RutgerHauer, 26 November 2019 - 02:28 PM.





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