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Must I wait for pinning before fruiting?


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#21 PJammer24

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 03:24 PM

There’s so much mixed up info here and nobody working together to give him the answer he’s looking for, just competing with who knows best.

 

In reality... Mikey and I were saying the exact same thing... We both said that he was better off waiting for pins prior to being birthed... They only thing I wanted clarificatin on was how one can force fruit because typically Mikey and I are in agreement on the fact that they aren't going to fruit until fully colonized... I think a better word for "force fruit" would be "stress fruit" where the cold makes them fruit because they will be dying off otherwise due to extreme temperature swings.


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#22 PJammer24

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 03:26 PM

 

There’s so much mixed up info here and nobody working together to give him the answer he’s looking for, just competing with who knows best.

 

In reality... Mikey and I were saying the exact same thing... We both said that he was better off waiting for pins prior to being birthed... They only thing I wanted clarificatin on was how one can force fruit because typically Mikey and I are in agreement on the fact that they aren't going to fruit until fully colonized... I think a better word for "force fruit" would be "stress fruit" where the cold makes them fruit because they will be dying off otherwise due to extreme temperature swings.

 

 

After reading mikeys full comment, this comment makes less sense since there was a contaminate involved to induce fruiting


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#23 coorsmikey

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 04:31 PM

I would guess that still falls in the same category of "Stress fruiting" since the presence of bacteria was most likely what caused the premature fruiting. Just in my case it the bacteria was suppose to be symbiotic, it managed to trick the mycelium into fruiting before the colony had a chance to store enough energy to support ample fruit body production.

 I have been trying stress my point that no one can Force their colony to fruit. While I should be saying yes their are ways to force fruit but letting them fruit on their own accord is going to produce better yeilds. A colonized substrate shows an obvious sign when it ready to fruit which is primordial knotting. There is no guessing if its ready when its pinning. It will pin if the conditions are correct even a human doesn't introduce any rumored triggers. Because the colony will fruit without our help it is often confused for action like misting triggered the pinning when even if nothing was done the same result would have happened. When maybe I should be better focusing my energy saying that for better yeilds, wait until pinning. Perhaps that would be a lot easier for neophytes to understand and confuse a lot less people.



#24 PJammer24

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 04:36 PM

I would guess that still falls in the same category of "Stress fruiting" since the presence of bacteria was most likely what caused the premature fruiting. Just in my case it the bacteria was suppose to be symbiotic, it managed to trick the mycelium into fruiting before the colony had a chance to store enough energy to support ample fruit body production.

 I have been trying stress my point that no one can Force their colony to fruit. While I should be saying yes their are ways to force fruit but letting them fruit on their own accord is going to produce better yeilds. A colonized substrate shows an obvious sign when it ready to fruit which is primordial knotting. There is no guessing if its ready when its pinning. It will pin if the conditions are correct even a human doesn't introduce any rumored triggers. Because the colony will fruit without our help it is often confused for action like misting triggered the pinning when even if nothing was done the same result would have happened. When maybe I should be better focusing my energy saying that for better yeilds, wait until pinning. Perhaps that would be a lot easier for neophytes to understand and confuse a lot less people.

 

 

I guess they are kinda the same thing considering it is stress you would use to force fruit... I have been stressing the same thing though and I don't think you can "force fruit" under normal circumstances... You would have to significantly stress the sub which you aren't going to do under what are typically referred to  as "fruiting conditions"... "fruiting conditions" I hate that term also...


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#25 Dabluebonic

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 08:19 PM

Maybe the mycelium knows it is up against a tough opponent, technically the myc colonized all it could, then it gives its fruits. It runs out of nutrition then its fruits to find nutrition elsewhere. "Fruiting conditions" to me is optimal environment for the mushrooms to grow nice and appealing. Right or wrong?

#26 cybele

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 10:38 PM

After you watch their complete life cycle one time how is it still confusing. A spore is not just a means of reproduction, it’s also fungi’s method of transportation.

The entire reason fungi adapted fruit bodies was to moveee.. Stress, and no food. No more voodoo, no more witchcraft.

#27 PJammer24

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:32 AM

Maybe the mycelium knows it is up against a tough opponent, technically the myc colonized all it could, then it gives its fruits. It runs out of nutrition then its fruits to find nutrition elsewhere. "Fruiting conditions" to me is optimal environment for the mushrooms to grow nice and appealing. Right or wrong?

 

The only time "fruiting conditions" really matter is if you are using a martha or something... A lot of the old timers on here,, including myself, use the same conditions to colonize as we do fruit. My space gets up to 73-75F in summer and as low as 60-65F in the winter... My jars are on one set of shelves, spawn running in bags on a shelf, and bags actively fruiting on a shelf... They all get the same light, same temp, same everything... I've been doing this a long time and I don't see any significant benefit from attempting to provide different conditions for different stages.

 

"Fruiting Conditions" gets confusing because people think they can force their subs to start fruiting or they think that they will not fruit if they don't provide specific conditions. They think that they need a specific amount of light, etc.. etc...

 

I provide conditions that are favorable for mushroom growth and the conditions are the same for all phases and I have great results.


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#28 PJammer24

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:35 AM

After you watch their complete life cycle one time how is it still confusing. A spore is not just a means of reproduction, it’s also fungi’s method of transportation.

The entire reason fungi adapted fruit bodies was to moveee.. Stress, and no food. No more voodoo, no more witchcraft.

 

 

As I mentioned above... people think that there is some specific set of conditions necessary to fruit or that they can force a sub to fruit when it appears to be fully colonized... Unless you are using a martha or something comparable, you are not going to see much of a benefit by attempting to tweak your fruiting environment. Just provide light, and room temperature, your results will be comparable to if you had tried to dial in specific conditions.


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#29 rstranger

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:39 AM

I thought of another question regarding temperature... in my closet where the jars are, it's 67 degrees. I know it's supposed to be around 76, especially for fruiting.

I don't have a space heater (which might be overkill anyway). Does anyone recommend a heating mat? Or something along those lines?



#30 PJammer24

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:48 AM

In the winter, my space never gets over 70F. you will be perfectly fine with those temperatures... Colder temperatures will lead to slower, denser growth and will keep contamination rates lower. I prefer the winter time with its lower temperatures over summer when I am in the 70-75F range... 67F is perfect in my opinion... You can colonize your jars at that temperature also but they will take longer to finish.


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#31 rstranger

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:13 AM

Excellent, thanks!



#32 rstranger

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:36 AM

Update here... it's been 15 days since perceived (sides and jar bottom) full colonization. No signs of pinning, and the 1/8" of pooled moisture at the bottom of the jar seems to be gone. There are a few water droplets on the inside of the jar but that's about it. Temps in closet are between 67-69 degrees.  BTW, I live in the desert, humidity this morning around 44%.

One of the cakes has shrunken a bit, and small pieces of the top verm layer have fallen down the sides of the jar. Otherwise, mycelium is still bright white, no discoloration.

 

Just looking for opinions or guidance if needed...

 

Thanks.



#33 coorsmikey

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 12:14 PM

Have any current pics? They may be thirsty. If they are on the dry side as they may be if you in desert conditions like you say. At this point I would recommend giving them a dunk overnight. If the conditions are right they should have pinned already. Might as well put them where you plan on harvesting whether the FC or back in the jar for invitro. I don't remember what the original plan was.



#34 ElrikEriksson

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 12:26 PM

You don't really have to wait for in vitro pins before birthing PF tek jars. It is not a recommendation in most versions of the tek.

The classic tek advises to wait 1 week after full colonization before birthing. Most growers find that after that 1 week a birthed cake will start pinning earlier than it would have if left in the jar.

 

There is evidence from numerous growers, many of them quite experienced, that a long consolidation period [the time between 100% colonization and introducing into fruiting conditions] will often increase potency. Even the growers that don't do it on purpose often report that grows they accidentally consolidated for 1, 2, even 3 months were abnormally potent. So you didn't loose anything by waiting 2 weeks instead of the usual 1.



#35 coorsmikey

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 12:49 PM

You don't really have to wait for in vitro pins before birthing PF tek jars. It is not a recommendation in most versions of the tek.

The classic tek advises to wait 1 week after full colonization before birthing. Most growers find that after that 1 week a birthed cake will start pinning earlier than it would have if left in the jar.

 

There is evidence from numerous growers, many of them quite experienced, that a long consolidation period [the time between 100% colonization and introducing into fruiting conditions] will often increase potency. Even the growers that don't do it on purpose often report that grows they accidentally consolidated for 1, 2, even 3 months were abnormally potent. So you didn't loose anything by waiting 2 weeks instead of the usual 1.

 

If you take the number of newbs that birth their cakes prematurely and have them sit in arid conditions for weeks only to have have poor flushes, sometimes even being over watered and exposed to unnecessary elements of contamination and handling, you may agree that it is better to wait for pins. Is it absolutely necessary? NO it's not. Can mushrooms grow with out longer consolidation? Yes. Mushrooms are really easy to grow and besides aseptic technique most everything recommend is unnecessary steps to make one feel like they are accomplishing something difficult. As you may notice though, "Teks" are mostly regurgitated info from people that read and tried a ten then rewrote it. How many Experienced growers do you actually see active versus how many people there are that say, "I have Read? So its really just opinions of people wanting to help others grow, some have the actual experience and other have repeated what others have done and nothing to it. Here is the original PF tea for reference though, It does recommend waiting. Chapter 3 Page 17

Attached File  psilocybe_fanaticus_tek_.pdf   9.95MB   4 downloads


Edited by coorsmikey, 04 December 2019 - 12:51 PM.

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#36 rstranger

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 01:12 PM

Here's a pic taken now... I couldn't figure out how to embed the image into this message, so I attached it. BTW, I'll be doing Chronic Tek using quart size plastic containers. These are BRF cakes.

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_5685.jpg


#37 macgyver

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 02:10 PM

Well they don't look thirsty!



#38 coorsmikey

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 06:10 PM

They do look good. I would guess any day now it will pin.



#39 macgyver

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 06:52 PM

I think I see some knots forming in the left jar, close to the verm.



#40 rstranger

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 07:31 PM

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'll keep you posted as things progress...






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