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How, When and Why Should I Shake or Not Shake a Colonized WBS Jar?


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#21 FunG

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 01:43 AM

The reason you shake a grain jar is to redistribute colonized grains more uniformly as well as drop the co2 levels.

Those are the main reasons.

As mycelium grows its digesting its food source and omitting co2, if the co2 levels get to high the mycelium slows and eventually stalls out.

I usually shake around 50% colonized, by that time once the grains recover it only takes a week or two to be fully colonized and then 3-5days for a consolidation period of the myc.

Shaking does not slow the myc down, it speeds it up. (If shaken at the appropriate time) dont shake to early or it wont benefit from that co2 drop.

#22 RutgerHauer

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 02:26 AM

The speculation about digestion of horses and cows is a bit off. They are aweful at digesting and do not absorb most nutrients from their food source, thats why they have to eat and shit all day! Any plant material is hard to digest, even for herbivores with their specialized digestive systems. A cow does a better job than a horse because a cow ruminates, a horse does not. That is why mushrooms prefer horse shit over cow dung.

 

 

I have a question though regarding this topic:

 

I have six jars going, inoculated four weeks ago and growing at plus minus 20 degrees celcius. Three of them Colombian and three of B+. Of the B+ one of them is six days behind because I mixed up jars at inoculation and forgot it, so did that later - it's at 50% or so. All other jars seemed to go alright but I see some grains that haven't yet fully colonized and are slow to 'consolidate'. Would it be a good idea to shake them all up even though they are at 90-95%? Almost looks like they are stalling the last few days.

 

One of the jars of Colombian strain seems to go a but slower as well so I'll shake that along with the lagging B+. (Jars on top in the pictures)

 

 

I have had this in my previous grows as well, that might have something to do with the method. I only shake at inocluation to spread the LC throughout the jar. First time successfully using rye grain bye the way, I used to over hydrate my grains I have concluded.

 

Wait or shake?

 

I'll just leave them for now.

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Edited by RutgerHauer, 30 November 2019 - 04:16 AM.

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#23 FunG

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 06:45 AM

Is that micropore tape you're using as a filter?

I'd shake the top jar you have in the first picture, by the time that's recovered the other two jars should be fully consolidated and the upper jar wont be far behind (maybe a day or two)

#24 crazy1

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 07:45 AM

FunG is correct about the myc speeding up. When I make LC's from agar, I use a high speed blender and then into the LC. The stuff goes insane!!!!

Once damaged, it goes into hyperdrive to "rebuild"

 

 

I'd shake em all and get that sub ready for them my friend!!!!

 

Peace


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#25 TVCasualty

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 10:04 AM


Lol, wow. That makes absolutely no sense. Where do you come up with this shit?

 

 

He's right.

 

You were wrong.

 

There has been no evidence presented to suggest otherwise, and your lack of substantive reply suggests you won't be able to present any.

 

In such a case it's best to keep one's proverbial mouth shut.

 

It works for me when I want people to think I'm smart but I'd have no idea what I'm talking about if I tried to talk about it.

 

It also helps me avoid things like getting banned from discussion forums.


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#26 TVCasualty

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 10:25 AM


 

Wait or shake?

 

I'll just leave them for now.

 

Your jars are definitely far enough along to let them finish without a shake. As soon as there are no more grains that are untouched by the mycelium it's good to go (all of the grains don't have to be fully covered by mycelium but waiting a day or two longer for truly full colonization is safest). For yours that will probably be later tonight or tomorrow, depending on the temp.


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#27 RutgerHauer

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 11:08 AM

Thanks for the quick replies guys!

 

Is that micropore tape you're using as a filter?

I'd shake the top jar you have in the first picture, by the time that's recovered the other two jars should be fully consolidated and the upper jar wont be far behind (maybe a day or two)

 

 

This was exactly my thought in shaking the two jars behind, and letting the other ones go for a while. I figure they will be ready at the same time. (yes it is medical tape, three layers of it. Would poly be better in your opinion? I didn't have that on hand at the time but I could use that in the future, have some now for my soon to be bucket FCs)

 

Will have to prep my FCs first, some holes to drill and some paint to apply. Yes I AM painting the bottoms black despite people saying that it isn't necessary, I have had issues before with too many bottom and side pins, I would like them to grow upwards. Have bought a 20 watt CFL that should help with that, will put that on a 12/12 hour timer because there is so little light here this time of year.



#28 Stencill86

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 11:21 AM

Lol, wow. That makes absolutely no sense. Where do you come up with this shit?

 
He's right.
 
You were wrong.
 
There has been no evidence presented to suggest otherwise, and your lack of substantive reply suggests you won't be able to present any.
 
In such a case it's best to keep one's proverbial mouth shut.
 
It works for me when I want people to think I'm smart but I'd have no idea what I'm talking about if I tried to talk about it.
 
It also helps me avoid things like getting banned from discussion forums.

I was just trying to give the guy a simple answer, rather than confuse him with shit that he could have just a googled himself, also, I didn’t need a smart ass answer about the mushrooms lifecycle through an animal, but thanks, feel free to ban me, seems I won’t be missing much

#29 TVCasualty

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 11:45 AM


I was just trying to give the guy a simple answer, rather than confuse him with shit that he could have just a googled himself, also, I didn’t need a smart ass answer about the mushrooms lifecycle through an animal, but thanks, feel free to ban me, seems I won’t be missing much

 

 

There's certainly no need to be melodramatic and sour-grapes about it. It was just an admonition about tone, which we'd like to keep more upbeat/positive whenever possible. If it was warning or ban-worthy you'd have been warned or banned.

 

If you have a reasonable argument against someone else's position or advice then there's no need to get personal when presenting it. And it could be the case that any condescension that you interpret as being directed toward you was just that; an interpretation on your part and not the intent of the reply in question. When I read it, I see no such sarcasm being directed at you.

 

 

Let's get back on-topic now and leave it at that.


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#30 FunG

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 12:40 PM

Thanks for the quick replies guys!

Is that micropore tape you're using as a filter?

I'd shake the top jar you have in the first picture, by the time that's recovered the other two jars should be fully consolidated and the upper jar wont be far behind (maybe a day or two)



This was exactly my thought in shaking the two jars behind, and letting the other ones go for a while. I figure they will be ready at the same time. (yes it is medical tape, three layers of it. Would poly be better in your opinion? I didn't have that on hand at the time but I could use that in the future, have some now for my soon to be bucket FCs)

Will have to prep my FCs first, some holes to drill and some paint to apply. Yes I AM painting the bottoms black despite people saying that it isn't necessary, I have had issues before with too many bottom and side pins, I would like them to grow upwards. Have bought a 20 watt CFL that should help with that, will put that on a 12/12 hour timer because there is so little light here this time of year.

No go with the polyfil man, I hate that stuff personally, it sucks as a filter. Micropore tape all the way, it's the only filter I use for the last 9 or so years, never had a problem with it.

Keep in mind that if I wasnt such a cheap skate I'd prefer to be using synthetic filter discs but micropore tape works just as good.

Sometimes you'll get a few grains that just wont colonize for whatever reason so I wouldn't be overly concerned about that but if it's a stalled jar then it's either co2 pent up or it's gone bacterial, since you said you're using three layers of micropore tape I'd imagine it's a co2 issue, one strip works fine for me but I use two when inoculating via spore syringe (one strip before inoculation and then another after)

With g2g just one strip works...
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#31 RutgerHauer

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 12:55 PM

Alright, you are talking about jars right? Or do you prefer micropore for FCs too? Don't know why but I get the idea you could dial in air exchange better with poly in that case. Will use less layers of micropore tape from now on my jars. Don't know why I did three layers this time, I think I used to do only two. Has been a while.


Edited by RutgerHauer, 30 November 2019 - 01:26 PM.


#32 FunG

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 07:08 PM

Yes, I use micropore tape for all filter material, fc and jars.

My contam rate soured like a eagle (haha) when I switched to polyfil after running out of tyvek envelopes....so I have experience with several filters and micropore tape like I mentioned is my favorite one of them all....with tyvek you have to cutt it to size and they're not reusable so I ran out quickly with the amount of spawn jars I made up....

Tryed the tyvek suit material but that melted in the PC

Yup! I <3 micropore tape
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#33 smellitstinknot

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 07:19 PM

If you have at least 1/4" holes in your lids and 3 layers of micro pore tape, there will be adequate GE and it sounds like it's working well enough so why mess with a good thing? 1 layer of MP may work as well but success is more dependent on your environment than the filtration properties of the tape since it is not micro porous. Those grains look to be on the dry side. Dry grains will struggle to fully colonize. Shaking jars frequently has never fouled colonization in my experience unless contaminants are present. I usually shake once at leap off from agar to grain and again at 20%, 50%, 80%. For some slow colonizers such as P.alutacea the difference can be very dramatic cutting colonization time from 2 months to just 3 weeks.


Edited by smellitstinknot, 30 November 2019 - 07:21 PM.

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#34 CatsAndBats

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 11:44 PM

 

 

 

If I remember correctly the shaking will slow down the rapid colonization a bit, but it's necessary to spread the forming mycelium to all the seed base. Depending on what kind, and size of the seeds, every few days should be enough to keep it going.
 
If you don't shake it, or it clumps up to where it wont shake apart, you will just have to use it like that and where there are uncolonized grains still in the mix it will contaminate there. 
 
I always had problems with getting the right moisture content with grains. They would dry out, or worse yet, ferment and smell like sour mash whiskey. Do you have pictures? They always help with any questions you have. People can see what stage you are at and what other little clues there might be to your procedure. Just saying, and good luck with your project. It's the most rewarding hobby I have ever found, and definitely the most edumacational.

Here is the picture of the WBS Jars
 
 
Shake them, IMHO.
 

Those look like they’re ready for a good shake, if you wait too long I find there’s not enough food for the mycelium to fully recover and get strong again and if you shake too early it’ll take a lot longer, and possibly need a second shake wich I try to avoid, that jar on the bottom right looks just about the perfect stage. When I shake I keep a good eye to make sure I get some mycelium on the bottom of the jars because if not it’s usually the first place to stall.
Good luck man, those jars are looking nice :)

 
 
With all do respect, I disagree. In nature our cubensis friends grow on manure, which has been stripped of the majority of its nutrients by the animal that dropped the dung. Not only has the animal in question stripped what it needs from the material, bacteria and gut fungi have done the same. My point being, there's more than enough energy/food stuff in a raw grain jar than a cubensis colony would need to recover.
 
I'm just speculating though, so who knows? :biggrin:   

Lol, wow. That makes absolutely no sense. Where do you come up with this shit?

 

 

 

Where do I come up with this this "shit"? I came up with this "shit" from five straight years of successfully fruiting countless cubensis substrains, fruiting hoogshagenii, fruiting copelandias, and fruiting cordycep militaris and documenting all of the aforementioned grows extensively:

 

https://mycotopia.ne...ycep-militaris/

 

https://mycotopia.ne...-cubensis-bulk/

 

https://mycotopia.ne...nvexa-grow-log/

 

https://mycotopia.ne...ii-on-pf-cakes/

 

Not to mention teaching my extensive agar skills:

 

https://mycotopia.ne...izes-agar-agar/

 

https://mycotopia.ne...k-some-agar-30/

 

 

 

 

 

Lol, wow. That makes absolutely no sense. Where do you come up with this shit?

 
He's right.
 
You were wrong.
 
There has been no evidence presented to suggest otherwise, and your lack of substantive reply suggests you won't be able to present any.
 
In such a case it's best to keep one's proverbial mouth shut.
 
It works for me when I want people to think I'm smart but I'd have no idea what I'm talking about if I tried to talk about it.
 
It also helps me avoid things like getting banned from discussion forums.

I was just trying to give the guy a simple answer, rather than confuse him with shit that he could have just a googled himself, also, I didn’t need a smart ass answer about the mushrooms lifecycle through an animal, but thanks, feel free to ban me, seems I won’t be missing much

 

 

 

Clearly I'm not easily confused, and I wasn't being a smart ass. I gently informed you that mycelium won't run out of nutrition because of shaking a grain jar. As @ethnobotanist pointed out, your statement is easily disproved by looking at rez-effect grows, where cubensis colonies fruit successfully with the nutrition provided by the original grain that the cube myc was applied to.

 

If you're going to come at me, at least come at me with some facts and/or experience to back up your opinion.

 

Google that.

 

 

 

 


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#35 RutgerHauer

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Posted 01 December 2019 - 03:05 AM

Yes, I use micropore tape for all filter material, fc and jars.

Yup! I <3 micropore tape

 

That is clear to me now that you love it. I just figured out I can buy something similar to micropore tape, the 3M brand isn't sold in shops here, but I figured out there is another brand with porous paper tape that would do the same trick. Because I thought there wasn't an exact alternative here I had been using another woven medical tape that presumable works, but might not breathe as well.. Just ran out of it so I'll buy the micropore one tomorrow to use from now on.

 

 

If you have at least 1/4" holes in your lids and 3 layers of micro pore tape, there will be adequate GE and it sounds like it's working well enough so why mess with a good thing? 1 layer of MP may work as well but success is more dependent on your environment than the filtration properties of the tape since it is not micro porous. Those grains look to be on the dry side. Dry grains will struggle to fully colonize. Shaking jars frequently has never fouled colonization in my experience unless contaminants are present. I usually shake once at leap off from agar to grain and again at 20%, 50%, 80%. For some slow colonizers such as P.alutacea the difference can be very dramatic cutting colonization time from 2 months to just 3 weeks.

 

Thanks for the response. I actually made sure they were on the dry side in stead of the wet side like I used to - this has caused me trouble. I did the 24 hour soak starting out with hot water and then a 10 minute boil, like a lot of people do, and the grains were soft on the inside, but not to the point they had burst open by themselves. I was pretty happy with it.



#36 FunG

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Posted 01 December 2019 - 06:43 AM

You didnt mention the micropore tape your currently using isnt the 3mm one....you might want to keep the three layers on just incase, if it's working then let it be....just figured if it was the 3mm micropore tape then three layers would be excessive. They dont sell it where you live? Hell, I could mail you a box, one roll is enough for 100-200 filters

Edited by FunG, 01 December 2019 - 06:44 AM.

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#37 RutgerHauer

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Posted 01 December 2019 - 08:55 AM

That's kind of you but not necessary. They do sell it online when you look for it, will order some in the future. Delivery makes it costly when you order just one roll, I think. Will have to check to make sure.

 

But like I said, have found another brand they sell in stores that is practically the same thing. Maybe I can find some 3M in a pharmacy, in stead of a regular drug store. The brand is they sell here is from Essity, a competitor of 3M, they might have some monopoly on the consumers market here when it comes to this stuff

 

 

Just in time to take advantage of Black Friday week, will order some with discount and free shipping.. Just ordered a preverbial shitload of micropore tape.


Edited by RutgerHauer, 01 December 2019 - 02:13 PM.


#38 Stencill86

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Posted 01 December 2019 - 08:58 PM

Sorry for ruining this thread, and getting up in peoples shit, just taking out my past forum aggression i guess, I’m really not about that shit, I’m not here to argue, it’s mush love for everyone
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#39 wilspeak

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 12:45 AM

 

 

 

 

If I remember correctly the shaking will slow down the rapid colonization a bit, but it's necessary to spread the forming mycelium to all the seed base. Depending on what kind, and size of the seeds, every few days should be enough to keep it going.

If you don't shake it, or it clumps up to where it wont shake apart, you will just have to use it like that and where there are uncolonized grains still in the mix it will contaminate there.

I always had problems with getting the right moisture content with grains. They would dry out, or worse yet, ferment and smell like sour mash whiskey. Do you have pictures? They always help with any questions you have. People can see what stage you are at and what other little clues there might be to your procedure. Just saying, and good luck with your project. It's the most rewarding hobby I have ever found, and definitely the most edumacational.

Here is the picture of the WBS Jars


Shake them, IMHO.

Those look like they’re ready for a good shake, if you wait too long I find there’s not enough food for the mycelium to fully recover and get strong again and if you shake too early it’ll take a lot longer, and possibly need a second shake wich I try to avoid, that jar on the bottom right looks just about the perfect stage. When I shake I keep a good eye to make sure I get some mycelium on the bottom of the jars because if not it’s usually the first place to stall.
Good luck man, those jars are looking nice :)



With all do respect, I disagree. In nature our cubensis friends grow on manure, which has been stripped of the majority of its nutrients by the animal that dropped the dung. Not only has the animal in question stripped what it needs from the material, bacteria and gut fungi have done the same. My point being, there's more than enough energy/food stuff in a raw grain jar than a cubensis colony would need to recover.

I'm just speculating though, so who knows? :biggrin:
Lol, wow. That makes absolutely no sense. Where do you come up with this shit?

I really hope you are trolling buddy cuz that was some very simple to understand science he just laid out for you...

There’s enough energy in grain to fruit multiple flushes... see for yourself here:

https://mycotopia.ne...ez-effect-teks/

Or consider that the PF Tek relies on nutrition from brown rice for the entirety of a cakes life... many flushes.

And the part about how digestion works... if you can’t grasp that I dunno how to help you...

Not trying to be a total asshole here but you gotta do some research, man. It’s ok to not know everything... none of us do. Learn, dude! don’t pretend you know everything and close yourself off; You will never grow as a person or learn anything with a mindset like that.

Edit: sorry OP I didn’t even answer your question... typically I do what @Crazy1 said and shake at about 25% colonized to spread the mycelium around the jar then again at 75-80% to mix up the last of the uncolonized grain and get it do finish up. Works great for me as well.

 

THANK YOU FOR THE INFO






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