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Roosters sham attempt at running spawn


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#1 flashingrooster

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 01:48 PM

Contamination is my middle name

 

I tried to make two LC jars and used the rest of the spore syringes in some grain spawn

 

Do these look contaminated? . The first two looks suspect for sure, more like bread mould or some other scandalous contamination

 

20191208_110851.jpg

 

straight corn syrup, looks like little white balls in there. No stringiness 

 

20191208_110912.jpg

 

This looks like mycelium to me

 

20191208_111008.jpg

 

Not sure about this last one, was a corn syrup honey combo some white little strands

 

20191208_110630.jpg


Edited by flashingrooster, 08 December 2019 - 01:50 PM.


#2 macgyver

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 01:59 PM

That first picture doesn't look right to me seems like the growth is confining itself to one kernel and not spreading around like mycelium usually does. Hard to tell in the second picture - My LCs don't always have strands, usually they look like little puff balls. I see what looks like a spot of good myc in the third picture. Is that bottom LC just that color, or is the sugar caramelized?


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#3 flashingrooster

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 02:04 PM

It was the mix of honey and corn syrup, the first lc jar was just clear corn syrup.

 

Plus that lamp i used makes it yellow. The clear jar all of a sudden looked like the dark one in that light


Edited by flashingrooster, 08 December 2019 - 02:05 PM.

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#4 Sidestreet

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 02:21 PM

Hard to tell but I think you're both right about #1 and #3


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#5 macgyver

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 02:37 PM

This is one of my older LCs, probably won't use it anymore just because of the age but it is confirmed clean. Just Karo and water.

20191208_141931.jpg 20191208_141916.jpg

People say it is hard to spot contamination in LCs, so I always do a BRF test jar before doing anything substantial with it. Not sure if it is easier to do a grain test jar or BRF, but BRF was where I started so it's my go to now for testing liquid cultures.

 


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#6 RutgerHauer

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 03:56 PM

About LCs: As long as you are testing, in my opinion it's not necessary to make a clear solution. I now make LCs with extra light malt extract, dextrose and a pinch of agar. The least clear LC I can make but it works great.

The agar thickens the solution and seems to give the mycelium 'something to hold on to'. When I don't use it, the mycelium sinks to the bottom and doesn't grow up much, when I do it grows all over the liquid, saturated. Helps with sucking that stuff up with a syringe and getting a lot of mycelium in there.

 

It's true that spores in a clear LC look more like little white balls than mycelial strands in general. (Less so when you add a bit of agar)


Edited by RutgerHauer, 08 December 2019 - 04:02 PM.

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#7 macgyver

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 04:33 PM

That's a good idea, going to try the pinch of agar for my next LC!


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#8 flashingrooster

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 06:37 PM

Fighting wet spot contamination? any advice would be appreciated. I am going to start trying some brf jars to see if it's my grain prep technique that is the cause of the contamination

 

Okay so the main source of contamination I seem to be getting with my grains is what i could only describe as wet spot type. Where the grain's have that small bit of water between the glass and the grain. It grows and the jar just seems to stall out. Last batch when i let them go for long enough they had the rotten apple smell. Little to no grown of mycelium. The other contam i am getting is the odd bit of white mould that turns green if you let it go long enough, but i can accept that as contamination seems to be part of the process. Especially this early on. The bulk seem to be this wet spot. we could say like 8 out of 12 have gone that way.

 

 

I got a bunch of winter wheat from a seed farm. It's really clean, when you do the rinse part the water instantly comes out basically clear. Using multi spore syringes and a still air box. Spraying inside of box with lysol. Inserting equipment and then  let sit for 20 min or so. gloves and alcohol wipes, spraying gloves with alcohol. Then flaming needle and wiping down all injection ports with alcohol.

 

I have been trying to follow this grain teck   https://mycotopia.ne...at-berry/page-1

 

My guess is that I am getting to much moisture in my grain?

 

I did accidentally crack the tinfoil in those micron filters that stick up like a needle, i can see the extra moisture that accumulated at the top of the jar. If there is moisture there is it likely to lead to contamination?

 

As per usual i assumed bigger would be better, but perhaps my jars are more pro sized at the moment. Should I start with smaller  than .8 quart jars to help fight contams?

 

One more question does my grain look over cooked? i read somewhere you don't want them have so many of them splitting open and squeezing out the bottom of the grains. I know I screwed up trying to shake them carefully after pc and got the verm mixed into the grain 


Edited by flashingrooster, 10 December 2019 - 06:39 PM.

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#9 macgyver

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 07:11 PM

I don't think it looks over cooked, in terms of fighting wetspot I don't think it is possible. Prevention would be the best solution. Definitely comes from too high of a moisture content.

 

I am also a grain noob, I started with pints, instead of quarts mainly due to the size of my PC but it could be beneficial to work out a process that works for you on a smaller jar rather than wasting too much grain. For the moisture content you could just leave them to dry longer after you prep them, maybe set a fan nearby and check every 20 minutes? A good tip I read is to take a square of toilet paper and rest it on the drying grains and see how much water goes onto the TP, you don't want there to be a lot. If you do this you just want tiny dots of moisture on the TP.

 

I have read a few times now that it is pretty difficult to inoculate grains from a MS syringe. I haven't tried it yet, but it makes sense. I did LC > BRF test jar, then LC> popcorn master jar> made mycelia slushy syringes > grain

 

I also need to work on my grain prep skills, it is something that very much comes from practice and experience to be perfect.


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#10 Moonless

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 01:45 AM

Testing an rbf jar is a great idea IMO, we really want to see you get some fruits for your labor. I appreciate your contribution to this site I spend so much time on and I will pray for you to have a successful run.

 

I much prefer to use brown rice as a grain, although things have been a little on the dry side :P I've found alright success in the recent past with boiling brown rice for 10 min, straining it well, and loading it into half pint jars. PC or steam for 90 minutes. As long as I have a good MS or culture I've had mostly success. Brown rice even in whole grain doesn't need to be PC so I find it easier to work with and less contams. I've also heard from cybele and FunG that popcorn is a "contam resistant" grain.

 

Best of luck and we look foreward to your future thoughts and ideas.


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#11 RutgerHauer

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 03:42 AM

Like macgyver said, prevention is key. Moisture content is critical, but so is sterilization. I don't know what method you use for that and if that could be improved by for example longer sterilization times. You can assume that you would need to sterilize longer if you are doing bigger jars of grain. If you don't have a PC then sterilizing a jar of grains would be more difficult by for example steam sterilization, you would have to drastically increase sterilization times because of the lack of pressure and still that might not be enough.

 

They say it helps over all to not fill up the jars more than half way, not only for an easy shake, but also because there would be better access to oxygen on the bottom of your jars if you do it that way. Assuming a lot of the spore solution you get in there goes to the bottom, you want the spores and eventual mycelium to be able to get oxygen.

 

As well, after you inoculate, you could shake, twist and turn the jar (to redistribute the water) once and if needed again after an hour or so when the water has settled to the bottom again. Hopefully that would help for the grains to absorb more of the water that came from the syringe.

 

But first, you probably want the sterilization process improved, so to kill more of the bacteria and give them less chance to grow before the spores have the time to germinate. And give the bacteria less water, they need it more than the spores/mycelium does.


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#12 FunG

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 04:25 AM

Grains are easy to prep, usually after the 24hour soak they're at full field capacity, simmering them is what will cause them to explode and otherwise retain to much moisture.

Soak, rinse, PC.... thats it, no simmer.

Wetspot bacteria is just the name people dubbed "bacillus" cause in reality overly wet grains or starchy grains wont even matter if the pressure cooker is at 15psi for 90minutes.... you may want to double check your PC to make sure there are no pressure leaks anywhere, and when you PC do you allow the air to escape for a good 10-15 minutes before capping with the weight?

Cause if not you'll have air sockets swirling around the jars instead of pressure forcing itself on the jars.

My only recommendations that I can think of right now.
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#13 RutgerHauer

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 04:46 AM

I have heard that a soak should be enough like you say FunG, but last time I soaked 24 hours AND simmered and the rye was still on the dry side. I'm not sure it works in every case. Maybe there was something else going on I my case like the grains drying out over the next week or so.

 

I will try and see next time if it works for me.

 

Edit: saw in another thread you work with popcorn, I have used that too and found that it absorbs water pretty well, maybe that's why it works for you, but not for me - now. I also found that when you start simmering popcorn it is too much. Not all the grains are the same.


Edited by RutgerHauer, 11 December 2019 - 05:08 AM.


#14 FunG

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 06:18 AM

I'm only using popcorn right now because my pressure cooker a 23qt t-fal is defective, it has pressure leaks somewhere along the handle or possibly the seal itself otherwise I'd be using wbs...

I've also done rye plenty but my favorite is rye/millet 50/50 but pricey compared to wbs.....

Have you tryed starting the soak with really hot tap water? Hot enough that it steams? most grains I've used will be at field capacity in 24 hours if done that way.....its like pasteurization of the grains.
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#15 RutgerHauer

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 06:57 AM

Yes I do the hot water thing, and change it with more hot water after it has cooled down, stops steaming. I know that hot water thing is necessary to pasteurize the rye,  prevent them from sprouting.

 

Maybe you are right though, will have to experiment more to confirm that. After boiling I do let the rye steam off until it is dry on the outside - so that might make up for possibly overhydrating by boiling - and this is another reason I like the boiling part because otherwise I would not know how to properly dry the grains.. I think boiling will still help break down some parts of the grain that would not be broken down by just soaking - and that makes it available to the mycelium. The grains don't pop open any more than after the initial soak in my case because of it.

 

Cheers.


Edited by RutgerHauer, 11 December 2019 - 07:27 AM.


#16 FunG

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 10:39 AM

You can interchange it too rutgerhaur by just boiling the grains to field capacity
And skipping the soak.

And the third option is to add the water and grains to the jar and PC all at once....that is the most difficult prep step that one could accomplish given much trial and error.

So yea, there is three ways to go about accomplishing the same means....the hot water soak is my preferred method of the three.

#17 RutgerHauer

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 12:37 PM

After the soak I can tell by the bubbles and smell how much activity is going on in there. I don't want to remove the soak because that should help with germinating endospores that otherwise would remain dormant throughout the process and will not be killed in sterilization - and cause trouble later.

 

I dont like the idea of water+grain directly into the pressure cooker either, it feel like it wouldn't do a very good job at breaking down the grains and hydrating them all the way through. It seems like a time saving thing but in the end it might not be worth it if you get mediocre results.

 

I don't think I will be using these two methods any time soon with rye - no half measures.


Edited by RutgerHauer, 11 December 2019 - 01:48 PM.


#18 macgyver

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 01:01 PM

My first WBS batch was a tad too wet, second time was a tad too dry. First time I soaked and simmered second time I only soaked. I'll find the right porridge eventually :biggrin: I'm thinking I should perfect my WBS prep before moving over to Rye though.



#19 crazy1

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 01:44 PM

Macgyver, try different times in the soak.

Like 12 hours, 18 hours and 24 hours.

See where you are with the 18 and go from there. I do about a 20 hour soak with my WBS and PC it for90 minutes.

Dang near perfect with the product I use.

 

 

Peace



#20 flashingrooster

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 02:57 PM

PC for 140 min this time, the pressure cooker I bought only get's up to 14.5

 

Using .8 quart size jars, I suppose I could go even longer and see what happens






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