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The Pandemic Thread


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#81 MsBehavin420

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 03:30 PM

No. Definitely not credible but interesting to see. There are tidbits in there that are fantastic reads on sovereignty, strawman stuff and the like. My paralegal directed it to me as a serious place for a bunch of info.... Not that i get down with naturalnewz.

Yeah. Sandy Hoax, we were in a blackout for most of that... But again, could possibly be a government plot to the agenda. I mean while there's a giant step from what AJ at infowars claims it to be to what i believe happened. But my honeys ex gf worked there, so says her internet profile. Do i believe children died ABSOLUTELY!!! But they never cared about school shootings till it happened in white schools...

Sept 11. Where's the judge and jury on it? A bunch of people decided and they dispersed the wtc parts all over the state(s possibly) to destroy evidence. I watched that day. The paramedics "famous" crushed ambulance that was my next-door neighbor..
Do i think it was a hoax... Yeah.

Lymes disease... Funny how close Lymes CT is to Plumb island, NY. Idiots didn't think deer would chance swimming the Long island sound like they did. Was conspiracy but locals do not believe so especially considering that any items that go on to plumb island Stay and get incinerated. Ive seen guys bid low and get SCREWED bc everything you bring there stays
But its for sale now...

https://www.prohealt...one-wrong-89709

I want a better link but there was a death bed confession about the lymes.... I'll find it
Why...

Because itz all lies.
what they tell us, what they don't tell us.i dont believe any of it.

I think someone posted the article in here(not sur) about the dr who initially found this wuhan who was detained by government officials.... Those people are who i hate. The government who does this.

Even our government does this.
(ex:see:Tuskegee experiments might be #3 or so. I was shocked at first by the title and the statement. But was far more shocked & angry after reading that)
https://www.vox.com/...e=pocket-newtab
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#82 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 06:23 PM

Neither this virus, nor AIDS, "escaped" a lab.  Both were put into populations.  AIDS with a Central Africa vaccinations program, and this one most likely by players unknown (but I can guess), not likely Chinese players.     Just a hunch based on having been watching (and that's not teevee) for a long time.

 

You see this sort of thing often. Much like the distrust that comes from the CIA. Their past deeds lead people to become suspicious of their future activities. The list of the worlds combined government atrocities could fill it's own forum. I will just try to stick to a few I know, like cia meddling that went on in south america. The banana republic being one of the better documented schemes. Not to mention decades later undermining the war on drug. They sold drugs to get money to fund secret wars congress would not. 

   

 Remember those uranium tipped shells in the gulf war. I forget now what was the original excuse for people contracting gulf war syndrome. No way the government would do something shady like use nuclear weapons that caused radiation poisoning. Falsifying claims to enter wars, Vietnam, Iraq. Richard Nixon prolonging Vietnam so he could use it to run an election campaign. The genetic fallout from Russia's nuclear testing in the polygon. It really makes you wonder if morality is real or just a fabrication of our society. 

 

So as far as suspicion of government I can see where someone might think it came from a lab

 

I remember one of my science teachers telling us about this in high school, biological testing from airplanes over San Fran. Probably a common article in chem trail circles.... This instance was a ship

 

https://www.nature.c...586-019-02275-3

 

Doesn't make any of those lab suspicions true however. Nature is a far better creator than we ever hope to be, why is more likely to someone that it was a government scheme. Than to think that it just happened naturally. Like 99 percent of all the other virus's on earth. So until some proof if presented I would have to stick with what we know versus wild speculation based on past experiences. For example corona beer has been brought into the conversation, the flow of information is a curious thing indeed

 

I don't know shit about it so feel free to destroy these points. Someone on here will surely fill in the name of that island... I think it was plum island. The source of much internet  biological warfare suspicion. 

 

Hell I was laughing my ass off listening to Alex Jones talking about chimera's a year or two ago, then I read this... not quite dog men like some of the tin foils would have us believe. But it's a start.

 

There can be grain's of truth in even the thickest bullshit

 

https://www.nature.c...586-019-02275-3


Edited by flashingrooster, 21 February 2020 - 07:03 PM.

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#83 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 06:27 PM

If you load your vape pen with bleach, I can guarantee you'll never catch the CoronaVirus.

 

Population control would be easier with 0.0% down incentives on motorcycles - while I don't put it past any mega-oligarchy to introduce these pathogens to the general public, there's easier ways for sure . . . nature makes her (his? shim?) own biological controls much better than we can; Occam's razor would suggest that this is just a natural event; the truth may be more nefarious, but people die of 'natural' causes every few seconds.  Sometimes shit happens without human intervention - call it God, call it Nature, call it whatever you want ... human nature is to look for human blame.

 

I be Noah was rollin' on the arc, thinking "Fucking Government and their Goddamn Floods!"

 

I'm off to buy paper masks to save me from the virus-opocalypse ...

 

:)

 

soliver

 

Should have read your post before I made mine dammit


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#84 ElPirana

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 06:47 PM

I heard this on the radio yesterday:

https://www.npr.org/...vers-arent-rare

New Research: Bats Harbor Hundreds Of Coronaviruses, And Spillovers Aren't Rare

Three years ago, NPR accompanied disease ecologist Kevin Olival on a field trip to Malaysian Borneo.

Olival, who is with the nonprofit research group EcoHealth Alliance, was there to trap bats and collect samples of their body fluids. He and his collaborators would then test the samples for viruses. Bats are known for carrying some dangerous ones, particularly viruses that have the potential to kick off global outbreaks through what's called "spillovers" — instances of an animal virus jumping into a human.

So the researchers were on a hunt for the next big threat.

The results of their work put the current coronavirus outbreak in China in a wholly new light. Scientists say it was caused by a spillover event. And the findings from the sample collection project suggest these kinds of spillovers have actually been quietly taking place in China for years.

Swabbing bats

The evidence comes from hours of painstaking sample collection sessions, like the one NPR witnessed in Borneo:

Olival is at the edge of a rainforest, sitting in a makeshift outdoor lab. There are plastic chairs. On a folding table, he places a small female bat.

"It's OK, girl. It's OK, girl," says Olival soothingly as the bat wriggles.

"So we're getting the oral swab in the back of the throat," Olival explains. "And I'm just holding her head between my two fingers."

He smiles. "Oooh, good one! There's definitely some sample on that swab."

The bat gives a sudden squeak.

"That was a reaction to a rectal swab," says Olival wryly.

A few more swabs and it's all done.

"Now she gets her special treat," says Olival. "A little bit of mango juice as a reward."

At that time, Olival and his colleagues were also in the process of collecting samples from thousands of bats in China.

Fast-forward to the present day. Olival says what they found is alarming: "We found evidence for, in total, from all the sampling we did in China, about 400 new strains of coronaviruses."

That means 400 potential candidates to spark another outbreak. After all, a coronavirus caused a massive outbreak in China back in 2002 — severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS. And this current outbreak is from a SARS-related coronavirus.

A direct path to humans

It gets worse: Scientists had thought spillovers were rare — that bat coronaviruses weren't generally capable of infecting humans, so it took complicated steps. Step one: A bat coronavirus would have to infect some animal species that had closer contact with people than bats do. Step two: While in that other animal's body, the virus would need to pick up new genetic code.

But the sampling project found that those steps are not needed, says Olival.

"What we showed was that SARS-related viruses in these bat populations have the potential to go directly into human cells and do not need that extra mutational step [of] infecting another host."

In other words, the path to sparking new outbreaks is potentially much more direct.

For example, one of the coronaviruses that the researchers found was a very close genetic match for the SARS virus. So they put it in a petri dish with human cells. The virus succeeded in infecting the cells.

Bat contact

Olival says the fact that a bat coronavirus had at least this biological ability in a lab setting raised an obvious next question: Is there evidence that these viruses are infecting people in the real world?

So the researchers started taking blood samples from villagers in China who lived near some of the bat caves they'd been studying.

Hongying Li is an ecologist with EcoHealth Alliance. She says there were any number of ways these people seemed at risk of inadvertently coming into contact with bat saliva, urine or poop.

"In some places you could find bats roosting in people's homes," she says. "A lot of people reported, 'Once a bat flew into my house and I killed it' or 'Bats ate the fruits in my backyard.' "

And people even visited the bat caves, says Li. The caves were a particularly popular hangout in the summer, when they provided respite from the heat.

"When we went to the caves for sampling, we'd usually see people's beer bottles and water bottles," says Li.

She and her colleagues checked the villagers' blood for signs of recent infections with bat coronaviruses. The team did this again with people in some other rural areas. Each time, says Li, "we found coronaviruses that had already spilled over into the human population."

These were multiple mini-outbreaks that had gone undetected.

Olival says this discovery was a huge red flag: "The signal is there that these SARS-related viruses were jumping into people even if they weren't causing any noticeable disease."

Indeed, people might have even had symptoms, but health authorities simply never picked up on it.

Spillovers

Which brings us to this current coronavirus outbreak. As soon as it started, EcoHealth Alliance's longtime collaborators in China (principally researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology and the Wuhan Jinyintan Hospital) compared the new virus with the bat samples they'd collected. They found an extremely close match.

"A viral taxonomist would probably call that the same virus species," says Olival.

That suggests this current outbreak — which has infected tens of thousands of people — could have come directly from bats, says Olival.

And, he adds, the larger takeaway is clear: "These bat SARS-related coronaviruses are actively spilling over in the human population."

Not all of them will spark deadly pandemics. But the more frequent these spillovers, the greater the chances.


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#85 makinbones69

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 08:01 PM

however I have strong intuition that the Corona virus isn't the pandemic that will trim the fat from society.


“Trim the fat?” So a situation where hundreds of millions could potentially die (or more; not sure how many qualify as "fat" in need of trimming) is analogous to a get-in-shape-for-Summer fitness program (or prepping a steak)?

That's an interesting way to frame it. Granted, it probably makes it easier (or possible) to contemplate since the reality of such a pandemic would quickly become an unprecedented global horror show.

Also, I do not feel that there will be an epidemic because of some apocalyptic constant that we are doomed to approach as mankind. It's just proven throughout history time and time again that eventually a virus manifests that has the potential to wipe out large chunks of our societies.

The inevitability of the emergence of another pandemic with the potential to wipe out large chunks of our society is probably what informed the notion of an Apocalyptic constant that we are doomed to approach as mankind since we've experienced it with every civilization we've ever built, so it's probably the case that whomever wrote the Apocalyptic "prophecies" in the world's religions noticed this trend and assumed it would continue.

Perhaps many such ancient "prophecies" are really just empirical observations of past trends projected forward into the future and described in ways that were constrained by the knowledge and vocabulary available to them at the time?
The fat is whatever u want it to be. Pandemics kill large amounts of people regardless. I just mean that its gonna reduce a population in a way that is comparable to trimming the fat.
I'm gonna have to respond more carefully because I domt have time to address philosophical issues here and write papers for philosophy 102

Edited by makinbones69, 22 February 2020 - 08:04 PM.

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#86 TVCasualty

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 08:23 PM

That might be how you were thinking about it, but it's a nuanced idiom in the sense that the implication in common usage is that "the fat" being trimmed is extraneous and useless and (literally) weighing one down. No one cares about or sheds any tears for lost fat, either.

 

So depending on how someone interprets "fat" in this context, the implications can vary quite a bit.

 

You might want to minimize that sort of ambiguity since someone could interpret your statement as either being a straightforward observation or a sociopathic "final solution" type deal (one particularly sociopathic approach to society used to frame large segments of the population as "useless eaters"). It was not obvious which interpretation was correct, which is why the first part of my reply was a question.



#87 makinbones69

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 09:34 PM

If you want further explanation this is exactly how I thought of it. That countries who have not invested proper resources to control the spread of disease will be observing large reductions in their population. "Trimming the fat" I agree is a misleading way to say this however I didnt expect it to be analyzed so thoroughly. That's my mistake I wont making it again.
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#88 ElrikEriksson

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 12:19 AM

This thread seems to be a magnet for unpopular viewpoints, so I'll add mine :tongue:

The coronavirus isn't killing people. People are weighing their options and then willfully choosing the path of their own death.

Look in the medical literature, the great majority of fatalities are people with cardiovascular disease, hypertension, diabetes, history of stroke. All markers for a long history of unhealthy eating.

We all know that eating junk food is invariably injurious to our health, we all know that eating excessive amounts of meat and dairy hurts us. Every time we do so we are making the conscious choice to harm ourselves little by little, setting our priorities for trivial pleasures at the ultimate cost of our lives. Coronavirus is just a trendy new way for us to hit bottom.

I do not say this frivolously or without feeling. All of my family made this choice. Most are dead, the rest who are over half my age [all but my 13 year old cousin] are sick to some degree. Most of my village is sick. Most of my country is sick. I have two friends who at an age just a few years above me had massive strokes that crippled them. They knew beforehand that they were harming themselves with their diet and smoking. They knew one or the other would kill them. Both see my diet and say they would rather die than eat a diet based on whole grains, vegetables, and beans. And you know what? They will.

Don't get me wrong, I have immense sympathy for people who are sick from their own choices. I just don't pity them because it is their choice.

I was living the same way. I had heart disease and no stamina by the time I entered college. After 3 years in college I left to care for my sick father, the only person I ever loved in any capacity. I sat and watched him wither away and die while blasting my brains with psychedelics trying to find the strength to break my families curse. I finally did, I'm now perfectly healthy and fit happily living on a fanatically natural diet and no longer smoking.

While everyone else dies.

 

Coronavirus doesn't have to kill you. Neither does heart attack, stroke, diabetes, or any of the other predicable outcomes of decades of self abuse.

But will you find the strength to break the cycle?

I hope its easier for you than it was for me.

I was really stubborn :laugh:


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#89 tcg

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 12:39 AM

All hot dogs aside, we do get most of our processed food from this country.  Our factory farms are shipping livestock and poultry there to be processed, then shipped back--in order to avoid paying $8 an hour at poultry processing facilities here.  At some point, whether through disease or through simply growing up as a collective, choices will be made.  If any part of our current government were serious about disease, shipping our food from China would be a no-brainer.  Like her raincoat says, "She does not care".
 


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#90 August West

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 01:33 AM

...we all know that eating excessive amounts of meat and dairy hurts us.

 No we don't.

 

This is the second time in one day that I've read this unfounded, out of context, ridiculous comment. I know you and Alder, the other person who made it, don't lack intelligence but you're making statements that do. Imo, take a second to add some context to your statement or don't expect to be taken seriously.

 

Can we ask the Maasai how they feel about this nonsense? Ever heard of the Weston Price Foundation? That's a rhetorical question.



#91 onediadem

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 04:10 AM

Interesting.. 

 

https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/?fbclid=IwAR0y_tR3jjrnk13MEnbAELijd1wHyWEK52eNz98I3WkuMNExXGQsXAPDgv0

 

At an emergency meeting in Beijing held last Friday, Chinese leader Xi Jinping spoke about the need to contain the coronavirus and set up a system to prevent similar epidemics in the future.

A national system to control biosecurity risks must be put in place “to protect the people’s health,” Xi said, because lab safety is a “national security” issue.

Xi didn’t actually admit that the coronavirus now devastating large swathes of China had escaped from one of the country’s bioresearch labs. But the very next day, evidence emerged suggesting that this is exactly what happened, as the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology released a new directive entitled: “Instructions on strengthening biosecurity management in microbiology labs that handle advanced viruses like the novel coronavirus.”

Read that again. It sure sounds like China has a problem keeping dangerous pathogens in test tubes where they belong, doesn’t it? And just how many “microbiology labs” are there in China that handle “advanced viruses like the novel coronavirus”?

It turns out that in all of China there is only one. And this one is located in the Chinese city of Wuhan that just happens to be . . . the epicenter of the epidemic.

That’s right. China’s only Level 4 microbiology lab that is equipped to handle deadly coronaviruses, called the National Biosafety Laboratory, is part of the Wuhan Institute of Virology. What’s more, the People’s Liberation Army’s top expert in biological warfare, a Maj. Gen. Chen Wei, was dispatched to Wuhan at the end of January to help with the effort to contain the outbreak.

According to the PLA Daily, Gen. Chen has been researching coronaviruses since the SARS outbreak of 2003, as well as Ebola and anthrax. This would not be her first trip to the Wuhan Institute of Virology either, since it is one of only two bioweapons research labs in all of China.

Does that suggest to you that the novel coronavirus, now known as SARS-CoV-2, may have escaped from that very lab, and that Gen. Chen’s job is to try and put the genie back in the bottle, as it were? It does to me.

Add to this China’s history of similar incidents. Even the deadly SARS virus has escaped — twice — from the Beijing lab where it was — and probably is — being used in experiments. Both “man-made” epidemics were quickly contained, but neither would have happened at all if proper safety precautions had been taken.

And then there is this little-known fact: Some Chinese researchers are in the habit of selling their laboratory animals to street vendors after they have finished experimenting on them.

You heard me right.

Instead of properly disposing of infected animals by cremation, as the law requires, they sell them on the side to make a little extra cash. Or, in some cases, a lot of extra cash. One Beijing researcher, now in jail, made a million dollars selling his monkeys and rats on the live animal market, where they eventually wound up in someone’s stomach.

Also fueling suspicions about SARS-CoV-2’s origins is the series of increasingly lame excuses offered by the Chinese authorities as people began to sicken and die.

They first blamed a seafood market not far from the Institute of Virology, even though the first documented cases of Covid-19 (the illness caused by SARS-CoV-2) involved people who had never set foot there. Then they pointed to snakes, bats and even a cute little scaly anteater called a pangolin as the source of the virus.

I don’t buy any of this. It turns out that snakes don’t carry coronaviruses and that bats aren’t sold at a seafood market. Neither are pangolins, for that matter, an endangered species valued for their scales as much as for their meat.

The evidence points to SARS-CoV-2 research being carried out at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The virus may have been carried out of the lab by an infected worker or crossed over into humans when they unknowingly dined on a lab animal. Whatever the vector, Beijing authorities are now clearly scrambling to correct the serious problems with the way their labs handle deadly pathogens.

China has unleashed a plague on its own people. It’s too early to say how many in China and other countries will ultimately die for the failures of their country’s state-run microbiology labs, but the human cost will be high.

But not to worry. Xi has assured us that he is controlling biosecurity risks “to protect the people’s health.” PLA bioweapons experts are in charge.


Edited by onediadem, 23 February 2020 - 04:10 AM.

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#92 TVCasualty

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 10:32 AM

If you want further explanation this is exactly how I thought of it. That countries who have not invested proper resources to control the spread of disease will be observing large reductions in their population. "Trimming the fat" I agree is a misleading way to say this however I didnt expect it to be analyzed so thoroughly. That's my mistake I wont making it again.

 

I've been noticing a disturbing trend of more and more people using dehumanizing language about specific groups or even adopting an apparently-genocidal attitude toward the entire human race. And if what I wrote had been spoken in person it would not have come off as strident as it did in text.

 

 

The increasingly-popular notion that "they" (pick a demographic to blame; any will do) or even all of us deserve to either be culled like livestock or rendered extinct as a species so that the Earth can "heal" from the mess we've made of it is arguably not the most productive mindset, and the dehumanization of humans is one of the most important factors in determining how easy it is for good, upstanding people to live with killing large groups other people, or just letting them die.

 

Considering how profoundly racist a lot of the fear-based (and fake-news) reactions to this outbreak have become and how hawkish so many world leaders are these days, seemingly insignificant details (like how groups of individuals might be framed as anything other than human) can make the difference between a population willing to go to war (and/or commit genocide) against the demonized Other and one that would rather work things out like civilized human beings who understand that we're all in this together.

 

 

None of this means that you were necessarily viewing large segments of the human race as "fat" in the sense I'm getting very wary (and weary) of, but it sounded a lot like it and I consider this to be a much more significant detail than it probably seems.

 

So even if you weren't thinking about it in those terms when you wrote it, it looks like an expression of that mindset to others. That implicitly reinforces it since the language we use creates the reality we inhabit to a degree that is often underappreciated. I've had plenty of bad linguistic habits pointed out to me, and in trying to change them I learned just how subtle and pernicious they can be.

 

So if I write something that makes someone wonder, I'd listen to their criticism or take their questions seriously since I don't want to be part of the problem whether I'm doing it on purpose or not. I don't know if any of this helps or not, but it's where I'm coming from when I "over think" stuff like this.


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#93 Alder Logs

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 12:04 PM

I am willing to entertain the possibility that a weaponized pathogen has escaped another country's lab this time.  At least it looks more like an escape, rather than it being a genocidal attack.

 

Moving such "research" from the auspices of the military in the United States to USAPs (unacknowledged special access programs -- like Litton Bionetics) is a shield from those bothersome FOIAs and circumvents the public right to know, and a brilliant move, on our way to paradise Earth.

 

...we all know that eating excessive amounts of meat and dairy hurts us.

 

I think it surely hurts the shared biosphere, so, even if the harm is secondary, we (the royal we) won't dodge the bullet.


Edited by Alder Logs, 23 February 2020 - 12:13 PM.

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#94 August West

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 02:24 PM

The increasingly-popular notion that "they" (pick a demographic to blame; any will do) or even all of us deserve to either be culled like livestock or rendered extinct as a species so that the Earth can "heal" from the mess we've made of it is arguably not the most productive mindset, and the dehumanization of humans is one of the most important factors in determining how easy it is for good, upstanding people to live with killing large groups other people, or just letting them die.
 

 

I have found this to be one of the most disturbing trends of the "environmental movement" for years.

 

 

 

...we all know that eating excessive amounts of meat and dairy hurts us.

 

I think it surely hurts the shared biosphere, so, even if the harm is secondary, we (the royal we) won't dodge the bullet.

Goal post relocated. Got it.


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#95 ElrikEriksson

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 03:50 PM

 

...we all know that eating excessive amounts of meat and dairy hurts us.

 No we don't.

Okay, I suppose I should have phrased it this way: 'It is the universal consensus of all the worlds qualified medical community that consumption of excessive amounts of meat and dairy cause disease and shorten the lifespan.'

The world health organization says so, despite their absurdly strong meat industry ties the american medical association says so, the worlds most respected medical journals like the lancet and the JAMA say so, the only people who detract from that statement are scientists whos entire income comes from the meat industry and lay persons who don't want to stop eating meat with every single meal.

You're free to delude yourself if you like. But don't be shocked and dismayed if people notice :wink:

 

Ever heard of the Weston Price Foundation?

Indeed I have. And I have read the works of Weston Price. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other and the scientific community has even gone on record as saying so.

Weston Price was an admirable largely self taught researcher [he was a dentist] who, during the second industrial revolution, traveled the world and chronicled the health effects of people shifting from their native whole foods diet to a highly refined diet of unfortified foodstuffs dramatically deficient in key vitamins and minerals. It didn't matter if the native diet was heavily influenced by meat and dairy [along with far more vegetables and whole grains than most modern westerners consume] or semi-vegetarian, when people gave up that diet and moved to living on white unfortified flour, white sugar, and factory meats with almost no vegetables their health dramatically declined. This is not proof of meats healthfulness, its proof of unfortified junk foods inherent unhealthfulness. When Doctor Price concluded his research he instructed his family to adopt a whole foods semi-vegetarian diet for their health.

The Weston A. Price foundation is a mindless pro-meat american legislative lobby group based in washington DC set up by a fanatic and not at all based on science or the research of Weston Price.


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#96 tcg

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 04:28 PM

That explains why I didn't think much of the foundation in his name, but had read that he actually did great work; it appears that his work has been turned into a lobby for the meat industry.  I wonder if they are part of the lobbies that have pushed for our livestock to be sent to China to be processed, and then returned back frozen.  

I believe that factory farming and the deadening of our food supply (Wonder Bread), along with the massive amount of chemicals used in factory livestock farming have contributed greatly to the demise of American health.  Even the Chinese are seeing obesity related disorders--Japan as well.  Our 501's might have been great, but most of this culture that has exported around the world does not have a positive effect on other societies.  I am particularly concerned with the slave wages and lack of supervision with regards to our food and textiles.  If this continues, the Covid-19 will be the least of our problems.  We have an opportunity to change that, and an organized movement to change factory farming and processing has taken hold.  I support these efforts as best as I can, but like many others feel powerless as a consumer.  Knowing that swine flu, bird flu, and now this all come from where our food is processed is a great example of capitalism out of control.  Tyson wasn't paying more than $8.13 an hour in some of the plants it closed--and representatives from both parties had a hand in changing the FDA rules about keeping American meat in America.  The changes were not widely publicized, but now this new administration is changing our labels on meat so that they no longer list the country of origin at all.  To be honest, the companies were lying anyway.  The chickens may have been raised on chemical syrup in tiny spaces here, but they were transported elsewhere (and now living livestock can be exported there for slaughter)--so they had several countries of origin, to be honest.  

I do not believe that meat is the "root of all evil" and disease.  I do not even believe that it is murder, even though I grew up on the Smiths.  But I do believe that factory farming and its "Animal Farm" practices must be taken down a notch or two.  This bailout to the farmers for unsaleable products due to tariff conflicts was the biggest in our history--bigger than the auto bailouts.  That money largely went to factory farms--the small farmer who raises sorghum and has a couple hundred acres received next to nothing, while other individuals with no corporate name and lobby other than the farmers' coop or extension service were left out of the bailout altogether.  As a result, more farms folded in 2019 than in any other year since the Depression--in the same year that farm bailouts quietly became the largest bailout in our country's history.

I have great hope in this new study at the University of Washington in which livestock are being fed grain infused with the right combination of mushrooms.  My family has switched from cattle to goats as they have gotten older, but have found that goats require much more medicine and more vaccinations than cattle.  I would like to help them, and  I would like to help the bees with that serum being used to save the colonies, too.  I live in roundup country but we have a ton of bees--they take over old farm houses and live in the walls.  We have great honey here but Africanized hybrids are taking hold, while the honeybee immune systems are weak from pesticide and fertilizer runoff everywhere.  I specialized in orchids and aquatic plants, but have switched to learning mycology because I could use the medicine myself, and I maybe could heal something else along the way--that is more beautiful than any orchid to me.  

I deeply appreciate the camaraderie in this journey.  Due to the need for secrecy for what I am currently growing, I cannot share my failures and (a few) accomplishments with most people.  I truly do believe that we can contribute a great deal to the maladies emerging from our world at this time.  It may sound lofty and inflated, but I know that I am not alone in this aspiration.  


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#97 August West

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 12:21 AM

 

 

...we all know that eating excessive amounts of meat and dairy hurts us.

 No we don't.

Okay, I suppose I should have phrased it this way: 'It is the universal consensus of all the worlds qualified medical community that consumption of excessive amounts of meat and dairy cause disease and shorten the lifespan.'

The world health organization says so, despite their absurdly strong meat industry ties the american medical association says so, the worlds most respected medical journals like the lancet and the JAMA say so, the only people who detract from that statement are scientists whos entire income comes from the meat industry and lay persons who don't want to stop eating meat with every single meal.

You're free to delude yourself if you like. But don't be shocked and dismayed if people notice :wink:

 

Ever heard of the Weston Price Foundation?

Indeed I have. And I have read the works of Weston Price. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other and the scientific community has even gone on record as saying so.

Weston Price was an admirable largely self taught researcher [he was a dentist] who, during the second industrial revolution, traveled the world and chronicled the health effects of people shifting from their native whole foods diet to a highly refined diet of unfortified foodstuffs dramatically deficient in key vitamins and minerals. It didn't matter if the native diet was heavily influenced by meat and dairy [along with far more vegetables and whole grains than most modern westerners consume] or semi-vegetarian, when people gave up that diet and moved to living on white unfortified flour, white sugar, and factory meats with almost no vegetables their health dramatically declined. This is not proof of meats healthfulness, its proof of unfortified junk foods inherent unhealthfulness. When Doctor Price concluded his research he instructed his family to adopt a whole foods semi-vegetarian diet for their health.

The Weston A. Price foundation is a mindless pro-meat american legislative lobby group based in washington DC set up by a fanatic and not at all based on science or the research of Weston Price.

 

Tale firmly between legs on the first part of your post, here.

 

I've tried hard over the years to not jump to conclusions and instead, ask questions to draw answers out where I am unsure of what someone means. I didn't do this here. Even though your words made it pretty clear, I admit I took the liberty of reading beyond your words. Probably just shy of 100% of the time I engage with someone who says, "eating too much meat...", they are vegetarians or vegans and mean simply, "eating meat...". I tend to take for granted that eating things to the exclusion of others is generally not the optimum means to health...which there is clearly more than one path towards.

 

As for the scientific appeals to authority, though I agree that "too much" meat and dairy may indeed be detrimental, defining what that looks like for each individual will change the equation. If there's a science that deserves skepticism, it's food science. Dietary "guidelines" laid down for the masses are sure to fail huge numbers of people.

 

As to Weston Price, I misspoke about which organization I was asking about. I'm talking about the Price-Pottinger Foundation, not Sally Fallon's group. That said, it's been some years since I visited either entity's literature but I found the former to be considerably more balanced in their approach. However, they're both "pro meat" and "pro dairy" for what' it's worth, as if either of those are inherently negative things.

 

As for this,

 

 I wonder if they are part of the lobbies that have pushed for our livestock to be sent to China to be processed, and then returned back frozen.

 

last I checked, both of those organizations are about as far away from being advocates of factory farming as it gets. If anything, Sally Fallon, at least, would be accused of being a zealot of grass fed, small-scale, organic farming.


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#98 ElrikEriksson

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 01:20 AM

In the spirit of full disclosure I am a strict vegetarian [vegan] but I'm not against other people eating meat, that's your choice not mine. I more or less became vegan by accident.
After watching one too many people die I more or less snapped, but I didn't want to do anything unreasoned so I gave myself 1 year to read medical books and research papers to figure out precisely why everyone I knew was dying, why I was sick, and how to fix it. I had absolutely no intention or inclination to go vegan. By the end of that year of research I was convinced that the fastest and most certain way to reverse existing cardiovascular disease was a radically healthy no-compromises whole foods vegan diet with lots of fresh cooked vegetables and an absurdly high natural fiber intake. Clinical research said it should work but I really had no idea what to expect since I didn't think my case was that advanced yet.
Over the course of the first 3 months alone I felt my body gain strength, stamina, and more vigor than I knew what to do with. I had never been a physical guy but I started running and lifting weights just because I suddenly could, and it oddly felt good. After 3 years every medical problem that had plagued me since my first memories was gone.
At this point, according to that year of research I did, I have no real doubt I could start consuming 5% of calories derived from natural meats without my body re-developing disease. At 10% I'm not sure if it would be an extremely slow return of cardiovascular disease, or a little faster, or none at all. I had to rely on epidemiological data for that range and that is vague. The point is right now I'm staying vegan purely because its what I'm now used to and I don't want to risk going too far and falling into bad habits eventually. I'm kind of all or nothing. Full on or full off. Other people who can manage shades of grey could do fine eating some meat.

On a total tangent, since there are people here who enjoyed Prices book 'Nutrition and Physical Degeneration', I just thought I'd point out another classic. One that is almost unknown outside of Finland and Sweden, 'In The Cauldron of Disease' by Are Waerland. It's off copyright and a legal free download. The book starts a little slow, at one point I was wondering if the whole book was about sleeping with the bedroom window open, but it develops into a fascinating snapshot of the outskirts of the second industrial revolution. Are was a nutball Finn that slept in the snow to enhance his vigor, he bemoaned the difficulty [in the 1920's] of finding 'real bread' outside of rural scandinavia and the degrading effect on peoples health of not consuming grain products rich in natural fiber [this was decades before Dr. Burkitt became the 'father of fiber'], Are gives interesting accounts of the ongoing scientific progress in the discovery of vitamins and stories of famines and tragedies that helped us discover details of nutrition, and he ruminated on the philosophy of health. Should we get sick and try to find a cure, or build a sturdy foundation of health?

Is the world to be a cauldron of disease, or are we going to be builders as our
forefathers were, building up health instead of pampering the doctors and breeding
disease?
Whom are we going to serve: Asklepios or Idun?

Asclepius is the greek god of curing the sick. He gets to the party late.
Iðunn is the norse goddess of youthful regeneration, cultivating health and long life while it is still there to be nourished.
Its a fun book for people into this kind of thing :smile:

This coronavirus shows us once again that we can not rely on Asklepios to give physicians the power to heal us of everything.
Live healthfully and let Iðunn give you the strength and vigor to resist disease to begin with!

Edited by ElrikEriksson, 24 February 2020 - 01:26 AM.

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#99 TVCasualty

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 01:52 AM


This coronavirus shows us once again that we can not rely on Asklepios to give physicians the power to heal us of everything.
Live healthfully and let Iðunn give you the strength and vigor to resist disease to begin with!

 

 

I'd forgotten that this was the pandemic thread until I got to that part. Nice segue back to the topic, lol.



#100 TVCasualty

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 02:01 PM

On Friday I read a news report about a decision to place some of the American coronavirus patients/evacuees from the cruise ship in a Federal facility in my state (in the next County over from where I live).

 

Yesterday I went to Home Despot and noticed that they were sold out of all bulk packs of dust masks. If shortages emerge and persist it will become a real problem for contractors since dust is no picnic, either.






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