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The Pandemic Thread


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#1841 shiftingshadows

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 12:24 AM

@ Severian

 

I'm glad you're young and healthy live off the grid & grow your own food. It sounds wonderful. And I agree The mega cities are an enormous folly.

 

However it is expected (assuming global warming is survived for awhile) that shortly the majority of humans will be living in cities.

 

To be a bit picky, as regards your independence from tech (based on science), that we are forced to assume works, I wonder 

if you were born in a hospital

if your mother had a doctor

if you make your own clothes

if you buy or bought seed and tools for gardening

if over your life time you have driven a car, or been in a car, plane, bus, or train

if in your life you have bought food from a store that was not grown locally

if you always earned money totally independently of tech in any form

if all your friends & folks you interact with are independent of tech

If you generate your own electric power

if you burn kerosene or use a diesel generator or well pump

if you read books

wonder how you got your education

 

I don't think it is possible, unless one goes where there are tribes in the wilderness, that already know how to live off the land, that a person born into "civilization", can totally live without some connection to the technological world, which is based on centuries of scientific investigation, experimental results, and engineering applications.

 

If one flies in a plane one simply trusts, but as TV said in other cases a 2nd and 3rd opinion may be smart.

But I think the idea that all science is somehow suspect, is poorly thought out.

Something as simple as wearing glasses, shows how dependent we all are. We may not wear glasses, but its a good bet most of us have friends who do. Just as glasses are easily overlooked, so are the various forms of birth control.

 

The world has changed a lot in just 100 years.  Not that long ago there were fur traders and explorers, not living tribally, that knew how to live off the land, here in North America and Canada, but you can bet your bottom dollar they all had guns, lots of bullets, knives, and if trappers, steel traps, just for starters.

 

.   The need for dental work and other medical emergencies, brings many into town that would prefer to stay in the country. And lastly even if one grows ones own food, most seed was selected, bred or hybridized according to scientific principles for centuries, and often in societies that were totally dependent on tech.

.   I'm sure a lot of us don't like a lot of it, especially obviously those in Flint Michigan or those who lived near Fuckashima, for example, but there are also positive sides to experimentation and a skeptical & open mind. I'm glad I don't live in a time when witches are burned, along with heretics, by believers blinded by 'faith', dogmatism, and dualistic 'thinking'.


Edited by shiftingshadows, 20 September 2021 - 03:03 AM.

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#1842 Severian

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 01:07 PM

First, shiftingshadows, I'm very much appreciating the dialogue; inspiring me to put my writing hat on. 

 

I also feel like it's hijacking this thread a bit so I made a new one 

 

https://mycotopia.ne...-a-science-hat/

 

 

I need to reiterate that I don't think all science is suspect. I don't think I've ever actually said that; though I can see how I may have given that idea. 

 

I'm all, ALL for science; especially the citizen led kind; like the kind we are all contributing to here on mycotopia! (well, you all more than me at the moment, havent figured out how to beat constant 80 degree temps and humidity that makes mold explode the minute one blinks....) 

 

and there are of course PLENTY of solid researchers out there working with the right mentality. I get into all of this in the thread I posted above. 

 

As to your questions as to connection with the larger society

 

Yes, to nearly all of them.

 

But just because that was the way we DID do things, doesnt mean it's the way we MUST continue to do things. It also illuminates the world-view I express in the link above, that alot of the things you mention, are directly linked to the 'advances of civilization' and not in fact benefits at all. (Consider for a moment, that the eyes actually have the ability to improve themselves, though optometrists claim otherwise(I've done it, no longer need glasses) or that a western diet leads directly to cavities; see the work of Weston A Price 'Nutrition and physical degeneration"- comparing dental health of pre-civilized peoples in the 1930s to that of western man. There was no need for a dentist in these societies. Which says something)

 

And, you are absolutely right. It's certainly not the answer to say ' We must stop using all technology tomorrow." The idea is absurd. 

 

But then again, consider the metaphor I used of being lost, and returning to a landmark you knew and continuing on from there.

 

Any 'Forward motion" for us, should we decide to move in a less -globalized-factory-technology direction, means proceeding in a step-by-step way; 

 

Gradually learning how to be more independant of a globalized supply chain. Gradually becoming more familiar with our neighboors, with our immediate environment, 

 

And, the very cool thing about this is the more of us move in this direction, the more we can specialize..

 

I mean, aren't microbrews in a different universe all together than say, bud light? 

 

 

 

I will applaud allopathic medicine and the modern medical industry for it's the knowledge of surgery and it's ability to work in instances of acute trauma. I certainly would not ask to go to a reiki healer or even an herbalist if I'd just been in a terrible car crash. 

 

 

 

 

 

but there are also positive sides to experimentation and a skeptical & open mind. I'm glad I don't live in a time when witches are burned, along with heretics, by believers blinded by 'faith', dogmatism, and dualistic 'thinking'.

 

 

The fact is, that while witches aren't being burnt; 'Alternative Medical Practictioners' are, in many cases prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license.

 

Jump over to my other threadddddddddddddddddddddd


Edited by Severian, 20 September 2021 - 01:15 PM.


#1843 shiftingshadows

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 03:45 PM

"The fact is, that while witches aren't being burnt; 'Alternative Medical Practictioners' are..."

 

Yes Albert Mosséri, ( "a giant in the Natural Hygiene movement," )  is an example who was persecuted in France, (but not burnt).

 

there is more of a reply in your new thread



#1844 Tenderfoot

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 11:16 AM

[Direct Link]

 

"Let the games begin!"

https://www.dailymai...g-Covid-19.html

 

Chinese whistleblower claims first COVID outbreak was INTENTIONAL and happened in October 2019 at Military World Games in Wuhan - two months before China notified the world about virus
  • Defector Wei Jingsheng said virus may have first spread at military tournament
  • Reports emerged in October 2019 athletes at event fell ill with mystery sickness
  • Mr Jingsheng alleged China deliberately spread virus during Military Games 
  • He claims he took his concerns to senior figures in the US gov but was ignore


#1845 Juthro

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 12:21 PM

I think it's worth noting that even Wikipedia acknowledges that The Daily Mail is an unreliable source, and barred them as source of reference for their online encyclopedia back in like 2014, or 2015 IIRC.

 


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#1846 Cuboid

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 01:37 PM

I think it's worth noting that even Wikipedia acknowledges that The Daily Mail is an unreliable source, and barred them as source of reference for their online encyclopedia back in like 2014, or 2015 IIRC.

I am literally embarrassed to come from the same country that spawned the Daily Mail - it is so full of shit I can't bare it. Not that any of the tabloids are a lot better. And I'm not too sure about most broadsheet newspapers here either. Basically, I think all 'news' papers are shite. /rant


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#1847 Juthro

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 01:45 PM

 

I think it's worth noting that even Wikipedia acknowledges that The Daily Mail is an unreliable source, and barred them as source of reference for their online encyclopedia back in like 2014, or 2015 IIRC.

I am literally embarrassed to come from the same country that spawned the Daily Mail - it is so full of shit I can't bare it. Not that any of the tabloids are a lot better. And I'm not too sure about most broadsheet newspapers here either. Basically, I think all 'news' papers are shite. /rant

 

 

True that, brother :)    They all lie, at least part of the time. 


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#1848 Severian

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 04:36 PM

though, at this point, wikipedia is also not a reliable source. 

 

So if an unreliable source, says another source is unreliable

 

thats like a double negative right?

 

so actually daily mail IS a reliable source  :tinfoil:


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#1849 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 05:41 PM

..... and Snopes, LOL!

I miss Wiki leaks info dumps!

Here is something from Reuters, suggesting the Wuhan strain may have been in China at least as early as Oct 2019. Coincidentally, this is the same time frame as the Military World Games in Wuhan mentioned above.

https://www.reuters....udy-2021-06-25/

#1850 Juthro

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 06:30 PM

..... and Snopes, LOL!

I miss Wiki leaks info dumps!

Here is something from Reuters, suggesting the Wuhan strain may have been in China at least as early as Oct 2019. Coincidentally, this is the same time frame as the Military World Games in Wuhan mentioned above.

https://www.reuters....udy-2021-06-25/

 
The word that stands out the most to me in this post is, "Coincidentally".

 

I'm not saying China is innocent, but I'm not willing to call them guilty without proof.  I'll continue to reserve my judgment until some definitive facts come to light, until then it's all just speculation.



#1851 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 07:34 PM

Perhaps history is repeating itself?

https://usatoday30.u...-security_x.htm

Politico is questionable, this is from Josh Rogin's book and if true might offer some incite?

https://www.politico...-excerpt-474322

"If there was a smoking gun, the CCP [Communist Party of China] buried it along with anyone who would dare speak up about it,” one U.S. official told me. “We’ll probably never be able to prove it one way or the other, which was Beijing’s goal all along.”

#1852 Juthro

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 10:51 PM

I understand your argument, but let's be honest, if put in the same situation there isn't a major government on earth that wouldn't do the same thing China is doing, stonewalling.   Also, it's not like this is new behavior from China, they have a long history of state secrecy.

 

So again, I'm not saying they are innocent, but to convince me they are guilty I need more then what I've been shown so far.  I personally think that the effort to lay blame would be better spent on getting people vaccinated, there will be plenty of time to lay blame later, but that's just my opinion.

 

 

 



#1853 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 01:52 AM

With the level of corruption in places like China, the UN and DC, I don't believe guilt or blame will ever be determined. If so, it'll be the jantor's fault, who will be promptly executed.

As we talk about 3rd rounds of shots (maybe more?) and shots for younger groups, Africa is still being left behind. I believe Africa has over 25 million cases of AIDS, many of them children.

"Africa's slow vaccination rate has been largely hinged on global vaccine inequality as wealthier countries in the West stockpile more Covid shots than they need.

Ghebreyesus described the global distribution of vaccines as "unjust" while expressing worry that Africa was at higher risk of being overrun by the pandemic due to vaccine shortages.

"All regions are at risk, but none more so than Africa... Many African countries have prepared well to roll out vaccines, but the vaccines have not arrived," he said. "This is a very serious problem if we're going to take action against this pandemic and end it."

 https://www.cnn.com/...intl/index.html
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#1854 Juthro

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 01:42 PM

I agree, Africa needs the worlds support to help work through this, I'm all for it.  We here in the west don't need to stockpile, we need for the masses to vaccinate, and to do so worldwide.

 

Here in Alaska our hospitals are so overran with COVID patients that heart attack, stroke victims, car accident victims, ect..., are unable to get the sometimes life saving treatment they need.   It would be a really bad time to slip on some ice and break your leg (not that there is ever a good time), or to cut a finger off with the table saw.   

 

We just had to spend a shit ton of money to recruit 500 health care workers from the lower 48, fly them up here, and house them, just to keep our health care system above water.  All this, and we've got plenty of vaccine on hand.  There are clinics all over the state that you can go to, and get your shot with no lines, and no money required.

 

IMO those that haven't been vaccinated by choice, and then get sick with COVID don't deserve priority medical care.  As harsh as it sounds I think they made their choices, and should have to live, and die with them.   Their choices should not be affecting the outcome of someone else's time of need.  If they consciously declined to receive a vaccine when offered, then in my opinion they bought their ticket, and they should take their ride.   May god show them mercy.



#1855 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 03:47 PM

 
IMO those that haven't been vaccinated by choice, and then get sick with COVID don't deserve priority medical care.  As harsh as it sounds I think they made their choices, and should have to live, and die with them.   Their choices should not be affecting the outcome of someone else's time of need.  If they consciously declined to receive a vaccine when offered, then in my opinion they bought their ticket, and they should take their ride.   May god show them mercy.


Couldn't we take your thinking and apply it to other choices? People that choose to live in areas that are prone to natural disasters like fire, flood or hurricanes, should be refused health services or any care after a natural disaster happens again, they knew it was coming! (not really) If you choose to live in an area that has a natural disaster more than 1 every 5 years then may FSM show indifference to you. The government can purchase the lands at a steep discount and build them some fine public housing, I think land is cheap in ND.

I'm certainly not trying to deny your personal experiences or passions. Some data is showing a strong natural immunity may be more effective than Covid shots, especially if it requires boosters every 6 months, forever. I respect that you are an intelligent individual doing what you feel is best for your family, I'd like to think the same about myself.

IF the vaccine is truly lifesaving then first world privilege is on full display as the majority of vaccinated people are "wealthy" with lighter skin tones. Even in our own country, until the Federal mandate, the majority were lighter skinned and well to do. In the beginning it was about protecting the vulnerable, Africa has millions of vulnerable humans desperate for help. Here in the first world, every citizen with very few exceptions must get it regardless of need, effectiveness and side effects and not just once but multiple shots.

I wonder if they are asking the healthcare workers coming up there to be vaccinated? There are stories of nurses and other health care workers quitting or getting fired rather than receive COVID shots.

Good luck my friend!
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#1856 Juthro

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 05:09 PM

Yeah...  I'm not really getting the parallel to those that live in disaster prone areas with those that refuse to become vaccinated.  I'm trying not to bicker, but to me it's apples, and pickup trucks.   Two completely different subjects.

 

You say a natural immunity may be stronger then the vaccinations, and that may well be true, I dont argue that.   But, a majority of those with serious cases requiring hospitalization, and ventilators don't have either.   

 

If I choose to live inside an area that is prone to natural disasters ( and I do), I accept the risks involved.  Me taking those risks doesn't tie up  emergency rooms that may be needed to save the victim of a car accident, or of a stroke.  I expect no FEMA troops to be inconvenienced to death after the next big earthquake on my behalf.  I know I'm on my own, and I have prepared to best of my ability.

 

As far a racial, and global equality.  I'm all for it, it's a shitty world out there.  I try to do what I can to make it better every day, but I am just me.  So, now we're back to the serenity prayer.  I will not feel guilt about the way things are that are not in my control.  I might feel disgust, pity, or even a bit sick to my stomach, but I wont feel guilt.  

 

 


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#1857 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 23 September 2021 - 06:58 PM

I certainly don't want to bicker either, I enjoy honest conversations and appreciate your point of view.

In the post above, you talk about people making choices between vaccinations or not. People living in disaster areas make the choice to live there, even though there are safer places to live. The science data shows the potential for injury, loss of life, loss of resources, etc choosing to live in these areas. The risk of getting sick from lack of vaccine doesn't tie up ERs, the actual disease or symptoms are the cause. I'd suggest an actual natural disaster would certainly crash an ER and people with normal injuries would suffer too. Perhaps hospitals should not be built in areas prone to natural disaster since a destroyed hospital would be a major loss. After a natural disaster, while you may be on your own, in other places, first responders, citizen volunteers and others come to help those in need before FEMA shows up. These people should not have to go through this but people refuse to vacate these very dangerous areas. People made the choice to put their lives in danger knowing the potential risks associated with their decisions. (tongue firmly in cheek)

Corporations with over 100 employees should force their employees to live somewhere safer or be terminated. Life insurance and medical insurance should cancel coverage of anyone choosing to live in these zones. Frankly, if they still refuse to move, we should keep their children as wards of the state and send the parents on trains to ND so they may start building the new public housing.

A few song lyrics from "The Meek"

"The creator has shown us a better way.
So why must I and I fight each other?
With unity and love for your brother,
There's always a better way."

"In due season, each will pay
According to the works that
They have done on Earth today.
So I and I, we shall live in truth.
His Majesty, His Majesty
Has shown us a better day."

"And he should be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water
That bringeth forth fruit in it's due season.
Nor shall his leaves wither,
Nor shall his locks wither,
Nor shall he be smitten by the sun of the day,
And nor shall he be smitten by the moon of the night.
But be prosperous in the way that he goes,
In the way of our lord JAH! RASTAFARI!
The only way..."

-Bad Brains

Edited by YoshiTrainer, 23 September 2021 - 07:00 PM.

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#1858 TVCasualty

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 08:05 AM

In the post above, you talk about people making choices between vaccinations or not. People living in disaster areas make the choice to live there, even though there are safer places to live.
 

 

Often they don't actually choose to live in such places. A recurring example is the people living in places (such as the Gulf coast) who would be all about evacuating from an incoming hurricane, but can't even get out of town for a week.

 

The deadliest and most costly natural disaster is drought. That's a tricky disaster to move away from since there's no telling where one will happen next.

 

Refusing to get vaccinated in a pandemic seems analogous to actively inviting a disaster to show up and hang out for a while. We generally don't have that kind of influence over a disaster. Not to take advantage of that opportunity seems self-defeating.

 

But at the same time everybody dies, all species go extinct eventually, and shit happens. So long as life exists it's probably going to live within a constantly unfolding series of disasters and all we can really do about it is asses probabilities and act accordingly, then re-asses them often and change as needed since today's safe place is tomorrows impact crater.


Edited by TVCasualty, 24 September 2021 - 08:09 AM.


#1859 Severian

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 01:32 PM

 

In the post above, you talk about people making choices between vaccinations or not. People living in disaster areas make the choice to live there, even though there are safer places to live.
 

 

The deadliest and most costly natural disaster is drought. That's a tricky disaster to move away from since there's no telling where one will happen next.

 

Refusing to get vaccinated in a pandemic seems analogous to actively inviting a disaster to show up and hang out for a while. We generally don't have that kind of influence over a disaster. Not to take advantage of that opportunity seems self-defeating.

''

 

 

mmmm; I don't agree on the drought front; at least,  in regards to the west coast of the US; it's pretty clear the direction things are headed in- ie: less water. States fighting over water rights, rivers and resovoirs drying up-  Cities like Las Vegas built in the middle of the desert? 

 

Certainly it's not on the timeframe of a pandemic; but if anyone is looking more at the mid-term future; it doesn't express very good long term planning skills to attempt to settle-down permanently in say, Bakersfield or Needles....

 

Though, given the way things look to be heading politically one could make a similiar argument for those folks who are living in big cities and reliant on a centralized supply chain to stock their local grocery stores with consumables....

 

We've already seen the toilet paper game

 

Plus a number of natural disasters have shown quite clearly how unprepared major urban areas are for natural disasters-  people killing each other over gas and such....

 

It's definitely less visible than choosing not to get vaccinated in a pandemic

But I think it is a viable analog of choosing to stay (at least if one has the financial capability to choose) in an urban environment given the current political/environmental climate 


Edited by Severian, 24 September 2021 - 01:34 PM.


#1860 TVCasualty

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Posted 24 September 2021 - 04:08 PM

 

 

In the post above, you talk about people making choices between vaccinations or not. People living in disaster areas make the choice to live there, even though there are safer places to live.

 
The deadliest and most costly natural disaster is drought. That's a tricky disaster to move away from since there's no telling where one will happen next.
 
Refusing to get vaccinated in a pandemic seems analogous to actively inviting a disaster to show up and hang out for a while. We generally don't have that kind of influence over a disaster. Not to take advantage of that opportunity seems self-defeating.

 

''
 
 
mmmm; I don't agree on the drought front; at least,  in regards to the west coast of the US; it's pretty clear the direction things are headed in- ie: less water. States fighting over water rights, rivers and resovoirs drying up-  Cities like Las Vegas built in the middle of the desert? 
 
Certainly it's not on the timeframe of a pandemic; but if anyone is looking more at the mid-term future; it doesn't express very good long term planning skills to attempt to settle-down permanently in say, Bakersfield or Needles....
 
Though, given the way things look to be heading politically one could make a similiar argument for those folks who are living in big cities and reliant on a centralized supply chain to stock their local grocery stores with consumables....
 
We've already seen the toilet paper game
 
Plus a number of natural disasters have shown quite clearly how unprepared major urban areas are for natural disasters-  people killing each other over gas and such....
 
It's definitely less visible than choosing not to get vaccinated in a pandemic
But I think it is a viable analog of choosing to stay (at least if one has the financial capability to choose) in an urban environment given the current political/environmental climate

 


 
Atlanta was very close to running dry only a few years ago, when the climate was even less changed:

Atlanta Shudders at Prospect of Empty Faucets
 
Drought-Stricken South Facing Tough Choices
 
Georgia Once Prayed For Rain, Now Plans For Drought

Atlanta and Miami are on the list:
5 U.S. Cities That Potentially Could Run Out of Water
 
Needing Water, Georgia Stirs Up a 200-Year-Old Dispute With Its Northern Neighbor

 

I imagine one of the main issues in places where there's normally plenty of water is that all so-called "fresh" water is dirty/contaminated. The rivers might be flowing but we we haven't been able to drink untreated river, stream, or even creek water safely anywhere in decades (people do anyway and there are ways to maximize the probability of finding open water that's safe to drink untreated).

 

It's going to be awkward when the hordes of American refugees from the Southwest head to the Southeast only to find the same problem (maybe; it might be massively flooded by then, which is no picnic either). And when I lived off-grid in the boonies it only took 3 years before civilization caught up to us and started washing out the stars with light from big new shiny gas stations (this was in the '90s). Point being that there's nowhere to hide from the beast, and if everyone tried then what little is left of the wilderness and wild-ish areas would be wiped out in short order. 

 

It appears to me that we're all in this together.


Edited by TVCasualty, 24 September 2021 - 04:10 PM.

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