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Cosmos and Psyche


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#1 Foxdogg

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Posted 23 March 2020 - 08:15 AM

Book by Richard Tarnas 

 

I can't remember what I've actually put up on this board (I write some big posts, get uncomfortable with what I'm sharing and delete - I know, I'm working on it), but I've spent most of my life as a hard(er) edged scientist, physicist and engineer. I've been quite successful in my career and thought I'd figured everything out, but definitely felt like I've been missing some pieces. Lately my personal hobby that dates back to childhood depending on how you look at it, has lead me on a crazy journey that has fundamentally changed me.

 

As a kid, I went to Catholic school, run by nuns. I wasn't a great kid, i'd break into the science lab or the library. I'd take books on Atlantis and the Loch Ness Monster, and I'd look at jarred fetuses, play with mercury etc.

 

As an adult, I've given up on Atlantis and all of that "what if" type exercises- there was a marked time in my life I decided it was bullshit and that fantastic things can't exist (sad day, in retrospect). I still do some weird things with science although I admit I wish I understood how to grow some plants better.

 

Anyway, I think my first period of enlightenment was around the 6th grade. I saw The Burbs with Tom Hanks and that chanting really freaked me out. I was in church and we were chanting or reciting a prayer and I realized that I was indoctrinated into an ideology without choice and I don't even know which other ones are out there and how they differ (not a dig on any religion, I just didn't understand or agree with my part in it at the time). I took a strong turn to a type of atheism, but in times of despair I'd still consider a god. I found this really interesting, but decided it was a primitive expression of thought from a simple part of my brain that hadn't evolved properly yet.

I know - those words...

 

Sometime in my comfortable adulthood, I eased up a bit. I decided that my god was Gaia - I actually don't know a lot about Gaia, I haven't sought out information, but I decided that my planet was my god, nature was my god - a force infinitely larger than me that had the ability to let me flourish or wipe me out like squashing a bug. I was, an continue to be grateful, I try to both honor and care for the planet and I'm amazed at its beauty and history and it's place in the cosmos. The words here are just to describe the discrepancy of size, my god at this state wasn't vengeful or mean-spirited, just all encompassing. 

 

So a few months ago, I listened to a radio interview with Graham Hancock. This guy is not a scientist, he's a journalist that dives deep into archeological record, points out discrepancies and dissonance between scientific communities and extrapolates really interesting information. If archeologists are right about X, that means Geologists are wrong about Y which means Z. And vice versa with some interesting implications for our history. Hancock's main theme is that there was a precursor civlization to what we know that left "fingerprints" across history which are responsible for very similar developments throughout the history of civilization through groups of people who were separated both chronologically and geographically.

 

I encourage everyone to check out his books. I've read several of them myself, I love them even when he gets out there sometimes. 

 

The main thing about Hancock is that I approached his work with childlike wonder and an open mind that I'm not sure I would have been able to do without breaking into the library when I was a kid to read about Atlantis. I opened my mind to what makes a civilization advanced and how advanced we are relatively. I discovered a lot of ideas that I'm still reading into including how the cosmos acts on us. If we're connected to the cosmos and the positions of the heavenly bodies has some type of relation to what happens on our small chunk of the universe, then we're actually connected to each other and everything around us. 

 

Hancock brought me to Tarnas - a professor who dove into Astrology to understand it and was startled by what he learned and how accurate the concepts are throughout history. This book is kind of an intellectual struggle for me, the concepts are deep and they're taking me a while to unpack and justify with my understanding of the world, but the concept is growing. We're all connected.

 

And if that's the case, then what is time and space? I believe it has to be connected too. By that I mean, we look at time as affected by gravity, but in some ways, we're still considering it to be linear. It seems to me that it's cyclical and bent back on itself.

 

I struggle for the words to describe some of my thoughts. With what Tarnas is talking about, things have to be looked at more in a complex archetypal way rather than from a perspective driving simplicity for the sake of definition. 

I think the universe is moving us in that direction too. Look at the strides being made in medicine now with things like Pysilocibin. The chemical structure is big and complex - so much that some scientists have taken a leap of faith in trying to understand it. If we continue to develop more impactful medicines for our minds and our bodies, and get away from the single molecule modus of medicine currently, it's like we're getting back to nature. Our society and our civilization might be getting back to what was already done in the amazon 2000 years ago.

 

I know I'm stretching on some of this, but I've not communicated these thought with anyone other than my wife. When you run in science circles, it's a bit taboo to do what I'm doing. Like I said, I'm still learning and unsure how to communicate some of these themes. I am looking forward to exploring more of them, finishing this book by Tarnas and seeing what else there is out there. 

 

I'm so happy I found this community where I can share such thoughts and learn how to explore them more. I'm sure what I'm doing isn't unique to the community here, but it is unique to me. It's one of the reasons why I'm so interested to have a psychedelic experience, I want to learn more, to understand my part. I have to say, during this period, I really started liking myself - I enjoy getting in my head now and wrestling with some ideas. I can say I never did that before like I did now. It's been a powerful personal journey. The thing that will really freak me out is that if I run my astrological chart and find out that this recent change of mine is related to an alignment promoting more creative thought and spiritual awakening. I haven't learned how to do that yet.  


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#2 Moonless

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Posted 23 March 2020 - 10:26 AM

Thanks for sharing Foxdogg. I think that changing the medical model is something many of us here at mycotopia can agree on, how to change it is still a debate. But I think that we all have a deep appreciation for what mushrooms can do for our bodymind.

 

Cosmo and Psyche sounds like a book I could get into as i've been reading some of Carl Jung's Red Book which has given more depth to his psychological theories. Astrology has always been a mythical/spiritual science and I would argue that it has been accurate for predictions, but it all depends on who does you're astrology and how you interpret it. One thing you might try is to combine mushrooms with cosmological events. I use cosign to run my astrology, but there are many online sites that can do it for you.

 

Best wishes


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#3 Foxdogg

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Posted 23 March 2020 - 10:53 AM

If you're reading Jung, you'll really appreciate this book - he's expanded a lot on Jung.


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#4 Moonless

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Posted 23 March 2020 - 11:55 AM

I must say that your post led me on a wikipedia background check of Tarnas. Seems he liked Jungs work. Now I want to apply to his Graduate program lol.



#5 Alder Logs

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Posted 23 March 2020 - 03:27 PM

I am afraid I might be even too far out for where you're at right now.   I have criticisms of Hancock for not being where I am, being still too educated for his own good.   The cosmos I inhabit is not the one any real scientist hangs in.  In the one I'm in (hypothetically, at least) the celestial spheres are all hollow, their masses greatly overestimated because of the germ of contagion that is the Law of Universal Gravitation, and I am out there on the quest to forget it and make us start over from all the way back there.  Newton was a smart guy, but he was wrong about that, and any branch of science that finds his equation for Force in its bases is diseased.  

 

I like to say, "I was lucky, I had learning disorders."  When I read about Atlantis from the Edgar Cayce readings, or about the Hollow Earth, those things could land without running into any programmed walls of impossibility.    I think Hancock should go back and read his Velikovsky again. 

 

So with that said, Foxdogg, pleased to make your acquaintance.


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#6 Foxdogg

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 06:31 AM

I want to mention that when I say I think that Hancock is out there, I'm meaning I believe he's taking logical leaps that I disagree with. I'm getting to the point where I believe nothing is impossible. Quantum mechanics has taught me that much. But he does a good job of explaining foundational concept and then building on them. When he gives 50% of the information I need to believe something like Papa New Guinean DNA in the amazon, I felt like he immediately said a precursor civilization relocated them there. And that they were left Ayauasca as a means to continue contact with that civilization. I love the idea, but that argument does nothing for me. It's like saying birds evolved from airplanes because they can both fly.

 

I recently learned more of hollow earth and while I can't intelligibly talk about it yet, it's interesting and I'll be looking into it. 

 

I just want to say that I'm relatively new to having these conversations and I hope my tone and verbage are not insulting. I come from a very staunch scientific community and it has been a personal quest now to open my mind to other possibilities. 

 

I'm loving this community and being able to share these ideas and discuss them without embarrassment and the last thing I want to do to anyone is offend. I want to fly my flag and check out all of your flags, too.

 

Now, I thought Hancock got a lot from Ignacious Donnelly. I'm going to have to look up some more of these people you mentioned. Thanks for your response.


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#7 swayambhu

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 09:27 AM

I have a friend who is really into Hancock and out of respect I have given him a certain amount of my attention, and I’m afraid I didn’t find anything to recommend the man or his works. He seems to basically just skim and rehash old counter culture esoterica classics, and he doesn’t seem to read them or any auxiliary material closely at all. He seems like a cynical dilettante to me, without much interest in his subject matter beyond how he can spin money from it. That’s not to say his works don’t contain interesting material, it’s just that it’s unoriginal.
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#8 Alder Logs

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 11:15 AM

...I hope my tone and verbiage are not insulting.

I think they're fine.  But then, I am crazier than a shit house rat, scientifically speaking.

 

 

I come from a very staunch scientific community and it has been a personal quest now to open my mind to other possibilities.

 

And for that, you get my highest marks.  You name a handicap that few overcome. 

 

In the spirit of full disclosure, my credentials: Hs.D.   This is the degree I awarded myself in my forties.  It stands for: "High School Dropout." I came up with it when I self published a little booklet on alternative explanation of what is called, "gravity."   My thinking then was in a kind of blind feeling my way about, knowing something was wrong with the whole of a science and physics that really had no answers to actions at distance.  The issue seemed to be very deep in the theory, and was reaching everywhere.  Could it have been so deep as to be beyond suspicion?  I think so.

 

Quantum realities fry brains, yes?  They brought brilliant minds to have to chop the physical creation in two, because while the rules that seemed to apply walking down the street, would not apply when we took the pill that makes us small.  Alice put it well.  "Curiouser and curiouser."   The thing is, there's this universal law that wouldn't go with us when we took that particular pill.  That law says that every bit of matter has an attractive force for every other bit of matter.  The scientists even saw matter where none existed, even believing that they themselves were the matter they could measure, and not more.  They became materialists, and could not have been better named. 

 

But, what if it isn't mass that magically attracts other mass?  Because of Newton's error, we essentially used a cannonball to weigh the Earth and all the celestial spheres.  Because of what we knew of the cannonball, we believed we knew the Earth, and by projections, the cosmos.   We then looked at the masses involved in the microcosm and said, "No, there's not enough mass to matter.  Let's invent some other forces, because the Law of Universal Gravitation demands it."   So, because of the error here in the macrocosm, we infected the theory of the microcosm that was doing everything in its power to show us we had a problem in our theory. 

 

So, until we start to consider that Newton's guess about the source of the power, the action at distance, that has us stuck to the surface of Earth is not correct, and with that, our guesses about what it means for the cosmos we see from a distance, the microcosm we work so diligently to magnify, in hopes of knowing their dynamics and origins, we will just keep getting wronger and wronger.  

 

Or, they're all right and just having a bad patch of anomalous readings that they will get over any day now.   The sooner they unify the forces they believe in, the sooner they can shut me up.

 

So, I hope we have some fun here, tripping balls at all the cosmic levels. 


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#9 Guy1298

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 03:45 PM

I came from a very scientific background myself. I loved physics in high school, went to a good college, first pursuing chemical engineering, then Math and Chemistry. During this time, I fell head first into a weekly mushroom habit. 

 

For me, the confidence and closed-mindedness I had picked up from my background and personality made mushroom-use difficult. It took a long time to breakdown preconceptions, to create a sense of spirit and God, to generate feelings of loving-kindness... and ultimately to give up knowing. I'm much more satisfied now than I was when I thought I knew what things were. I've since really given up on Math, Chemistry, and Physics. It's not for me to care. But, seems my job gets me thinking about computers and algorithms and stuff. It's cool enough. 

 

Fear is great when you think you know the world, and come to directly find out you don't. 


Edited by Guy1298, 24 March 2020 - 05:04 PM.

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#10 Alder Logs

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 03:49 PM

Hi, Guy!  Look at me, wouldja, I'm playin' cosmology again. 

 

Hey, this is important shit, I tell ya.   I'll put my foot pounds up against anyone's Newton meters!


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#11 Foxdogg

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Posted 25 March 2020 - 07:45 AM

I have a friend who is really into Hancock and out of respect I have given him a certain amount of my attention, and I’m afraid I didn’t find anything to recommend the man or his works. He seems to basically just skim and rehash old counter culture esoterica classics, and he doesn’t seem to read them or any auxiliary material closely at all. He seems like a cynical dilettante to me, without much interest in his subject matter beyond how he can spin money from it. That’s not to say his works don’t contain interesting material, it’s just that it’s unoriginal.

 

Hancock is a journalist - a writer, but he's got an amazing way understand and absorb information and then put together the story and keep me on the edge of my seat. If it's not news for you, I can understand it being underwhelming and flashy. For someone like me, he provided the foundation I needed to build interest and to search out specific information myself. What has been so surprising to me is that once I started my own "research" how much information was actually out there on, in most cases, historically significant... "anomalies". It's for those reasons that I have a great amount of respect and appreciation for his work. 


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#12 Foxdogg

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Posted 25 March 2020 - 08:50 AM

 

...I hope my tone and verbiage are not insulting.

I think they're fine. But then, I am crazier than a shit house rat, scientifically speaking.

I come from a very staunch scientific community and it has been a personal quest now to open my mind to other possibilities.


And for that, you get my highest marks. You name a handicap that few overcome.

In the spirit of full disclosure, my credentials: Hs.D. This is the degree I awarded myself in my forties. It stands for: "High School Dropout." I came up with it when I self published a little booklet on alternative explanation of what is called, "gravity." My thinking then was in a kind of blind feeling my way about, knowing something was wrong with the whole of a science and physics that really had no answers to actions at distance. The issue seemed to be very deep in the theory, and was reaching everywhere. Could it have been so deep as to be beyond suspicion? I think so.

Quantum realities fry brains, yes? They brought brilliant minds to have to chop the physical creation in two, because while the rules that seemed to apply walking down the street, would not apply when we took the pill that makes us small. Alice put it well. "Curiouser and curiouser." The thing is, there's this universal law that wouldn't go with us when we took that particular pill. That law says that every bit of matter has an attractive force for every other bit of matter. The scientists even saw matter where none existed, even believing that they themselves were the matter they could measure, and not more. They became materialists, and could not have been better named.

But, what if it isn't mass that magically attracts other mass? Because of Newton's error, we essentially used a cannonball to weigh the Earth and all the celestial spheres. Because of what we knew of the cannonball, we believed we knew the Earth, and by projections, the cosmos. We then looked at the masses involved in the microcosm and said, "No, there's not enough mass to matter. Let's invent some other forces, because the Law of Universal Gravitation demands it." So, because of the error here in the macrocosm, we infected the theory of the microcosm that was doing everything in its power to show us we had a problem in our theory.

So, until we start to consider that Newton's guess about the source of the power, the action at distance, that has us stuck to the surface of Earth is not correct, and with that, our guesses about what it means for the cosmos we see from a distance, the microcosm we work so diligently to magnify, in hopes of knowing their dynamics and origins, we will just keep getting wronger and wronger.

Or, they're all right and just having a bad patch of anomalous readings that they will get over any day now. The sooner they unify the forces they believe in, the sooner they can shut me up.

So, I hope we have some fun here, tripping balls at all the cosmic levels.

There's a lot to unpack here and forgive me for not breaking this up by quotes, I'm still getting used to the board code.

First - thanks sincerely for your compliment. I am honestly a happier person than where I was before I started my personal quest, I believe I'm a better person, and it's made me a lot more open to other people on whatever part of their own quest. I sometimes get a bit uncomfortable opening up, but this community is amazingly encouraging. So thanks again.

Next - about 12 years ago I moved from an expert position in my career to a mentor position, I mean, not officially, it's just how my responsibilities went. I was working with scientists, engineers and computer programmers doing some really advanced stuff. I started becoming very aware of egos and would start stocking my lab with lower and lower people on ladder until I started hitting undergraduate college students and training them. It was the most productive my group had ever been in my career. I realized to look for personalities not education, someone had to have the tools to innovate on their own thoughts, the patience to seek out information, and the fortitude to make corrections on themselves, the sense of adventure to take on things that were bigger than them. To put it simply, and lightly (for I can expand this a lot), it changed my opinion on what moves thought. Also, I learned that the vast majority of published academic papers are suspect, and I say that with my scientist/engineer hat on. And academics would agree, because their first check is who wrote a paper and what school it came from before they even start to get critical about the material.

Now, I notice your avatar looks like Vishnu in front of the Hindu symbol of peace. What you said is interesting, since I believe Bhagavad-Gita mentions something about man emerging from the ground. Now this is actually another theme on my list to explore since this is a recurring principle that is mentioned in the histories of a lot of ancient peoples, even the Indigenous peoples of the Americas. I was thinking it was because ancient remains are so commonly found in the deepest caves, which I always assumed were just used as shelter. Regardless, it's something In interested in continuing to research.

Ancient Hindu are so interesting to me. I was actually planning to move to Southern India right before this pandemic hit. My plans are put on hold temporarily, but it is on the books. I am looking at this as an opportunity for tremendous personal growth and I'm interested in studying the Bhagavad-Gita. I visited some temples on my last trip and was stunned by what I saw and what I felt. I'm excited to get back.

You also touch on unifying a theory of physics - this is an ugly field to me and one I can't speak too much about yet. If you have an material to share, I'm in the middle of some other readings that I intend to finish first, but I'd be interested in the reference.


Edited by Foxdogg, 25 March 2020 - 08:53 AM.

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#13 Alder Logs

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Posted 25 March 2020 - 10:22 AM

My main issues with Hancock are about his taking disparate undeniable evidences of catastrophes and bundling them to his preferred date.  It's a date range where something obviously happened, but he pushes back lots of huge things that happened later, like it's been hunky dory since that time.  Anyway, if you read Velikovsky's Worlds In Collision and Earth In Upheaval, you would have something to think about in relation to Hancock.  V. had lots more titles if you find what you read should not be completely dismissed as the work of a crackpot shrink who wandered outside his cubicle into someone else's real science (much of which, he was far ahead of the curve in changes to come).

 

As for anything on a unified theory, I am forced to say I can't point to much out there in the literature, and I'm not well read anyway.  I usually have to present it in a form that is the universe, according to me.   I'm way out there, having chosen to kick Newton in the teeth.  It's not a decorous thing to do, especially by an uneducated upstart.  I could not have come to my lines of thought if I had been a good student, because to be a real scientist, I would have to be a true believer in the Law!  So, I go about building my case, and to those real scientists, I will remain just another fool for them to suffer, or not.   There are few scientists I would love to have some sit-down time with, and that's not likely to happen, but Nassim Haramein might be one of these. 

 

My avatar pic is Shiva's kid, Ganesha, the elephant headed god, said to remove obstacles.   For some reason, he just repeatedly popped up until I started wondering about him.   Something happened a bit over five years ago that changed my perspective on what I had held as my identity.  It was one of those all things made new kind of wake-ups.  Following soon on the heels of that, I started listening to a guy in Y'ube videos, often speaking from Southern India back then, from the stompin' grounds of Ramana Maharshi, at the base of the mountain, Arunachala.  The guy I was listening to was the devotee of a devotee of Ramana, and the shtick was something along the lines of Advaita Vedanta, which I thought I'd never heard of, but realized later that in my twenties I had picked some of it up in some of Alan Watts' simpler books.  Those were books that were somewhat pivotal to me when I had just gotten out of the navy in 1968. 

 

Now, at 73, I've never been to India, and don't really travel, not for a long time, anyway.  But with all the water that's passed under the bridge, in all the little things in the play within my current expression of What Is, as this human experience, there's this crazy idea that I might build a vimana craft, such as were described in the ancient Indian literature like the Ramayana (a text I particularly like).  But that's just for fun.   The really important stuff is in just being, and not so much being something.   You put this thread in the right place. 

 

Ganesha makes a couple appearances in this little video that I especially love:

 

[Direct Link]


Edited by Alder Logs, 25 March 2020 - 01:19 PM.

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#14 Alder Logs

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Posted 27 March 2020 - 10:43 AM

Geez, I think I killed this thread. 


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#15 DarkNchildlike

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Posted 27 March 2020 - 06:26 PM

This thread has been one of the more superior reads. It has tooth. Thanks for giving me more things to contemplate.


Love,
Dark

#16 Foxdogg

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Posted 30 March 2020 - 10:46 AM

Geez, I think I killed this thread. 

 

Ha, no you didn't. I actually wanted to look a few things up before I responded (I haven't yet) - but I do want to thank you for the detailed responses full of things I can look into. Irritated I messed up Ganesha and Vishnu. 


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#17 Alder Logs

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Posted 30 March 2020 - 11:45 AM

Well come on, man, we only have until the end of the world!






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