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UN-fanciest fruiting bin


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#1 RastaCat

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 03:36 PM

First of all i'd like to thank all of those who share their grow experiences on this site. This site has been very resourceful and answered many questions I've had that you can't get answers to elsewhere.  Hopefully this post will be of interest....

 

I've grown orchids for over 20 yrs.  I prefer to grow them in clay pots because they cause the growing media to dry out faster than plastic and orchids like their roots to dry out quickly so they can breathe.  After reading about fruiting bins and keeping the humidity high in them using foggers, misting a diagonal plate, using vermiculite or perlite in the bottom, etc.....i had this idea come to me (lightbulb right here)....

 

I  made seven 1/2 pint jars of brf cakes per the pf tek. Innoculated with B+ strain.  18 days later cakes ready for their happy birthday.  In large plastic bin i placed clay pots upside-down across the bottom. Then poured water in bottom of bin about an inch deep.  The cakes are placed on top of the upside down pots, keeping them away from the water in the bottom of the bin.  The theory was that the clay pots would absorb water from the bottom and evaporate it out into the air of the bin. Humidity will self-regulate on its own as only so much water can saturate air at a given temperature. I'm not sure what 'size' these pots are, i mean what they are called.  They have a 3" diameter at the bottom and 4 5/8" diameter across the top.  Plain clay pots.  You don't want to use any with glazed surfaces as they are basically sealed and will not absorb and give off water.

Here's a pic at 6 days: 06 days.JPG

 

If you look at the sides of the bin in this pic you will see the moisture on it. The lid of the bin had a fine mist look to it. There was never large amounts of condensation on the lid that would 'rain' down on the cakes. 

 

In this pic, and also in the one above (upper left cake) you can see how the mycelium grew down the sides of the pot. This did not happen on all pots.  I'm guessing there was some sort of food source on the side of this pot, though i cannot imagine what it would have been. I washed all these pots through the dishwasher and then sprayed with H2O2 prior to use. I made sure pots were dry and H2O2 was gone before cakes were placed on them. 10 days mycelium on clay pot.JPG

 

This pic thrown in just because i found interesting... at 10 days, same as pic above, crystalline looking spikes of mycelium were shooting out the top of the cake. NEATO! 10 days crystalline mycelium.JPG

 

At 10 days there were 8 pins. At 12 days, 62 pins. At 14 days, 109 pins and shrooms. 5 to 26 per cake.

 

Finally, two pics of the project at 16 days:  16 days side.JPG   16 days.JPG

 

There ya have it.  I've grown these out two other times with similar results.  i never spray these bins or provide any other water besides the 1 in of water that is in the bottom of the bin. I had also hoped that moisture would be wicked up into the cakes themselves and keep them hydrated but i don't believe this actually occurs after taking the cakes apart once spent. The only thing i do with the fruiting bin is fan fresh air in with the lid twice per day. Have not had any issues with contamination of the cakes. I welcome any questions, further ideas along these lines, or other input.  Would be interested in hearing if anyone else has any experience with this or something similar.   Thanks. 


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#2 TVCasualty

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 05:49 PM

Looks pretty good, though it's looking like they're developing overlay.

 

The mycelium that grows up into the air is often seen when rH levels are very high and the fresh air exchange is less than optimal. Genetics also play a role and some strains are much more prone to it than others but an increase in fresh air exchange can help minimize it. Rhizomorphic growth is the ideal to aim for, which looks like sharply-defined strands of string or rope rather than uniformly cottony/spongy looking growth. If a substrate gets covered with the cottony type of growth it tends to form an impervious surface and won't fruit and is why there are very few mushrooms growing from the sides of your cakes vs. the tops. If that happens and covers the whole cake you can often scratch up the surface (just the surface!) with a clean fork to get it to fruit. If intending to do a scratching I'll dunk 'em first to maximize their water content and therefore the yield.

 

Yours are getting enough fresh air at the moment to grow properly, which can be judged by the ratio of cap size to stem length, but more FAE (fresh air exchange) is better and constantly moving air currents are best (though very difficult to achieve, so we aim for the best compromise we can manage). When they're not getting enough FAE and the CO2 level gets too high you end up with small (sometimes comically-small) caps and very long stems.

 

And there didn't necessarily have to be any nutrients on the pot for the mycelium to grow over it. Sometimes it just does stuff like that. I've seen it on the sides of plastic trays that definitely lacked any nutrients to support growth.

 

Before I forget: Have you been dunking between flushes?

 

And once they're mostly finished you can often pull a few more out of otherwise "spent" cakes by busting them up and putting them in a tray (see the 2nd post): https://mycotopia.ne...-wet-towel-tek/

 

I usually do that after the third flush so I can cycle new material into my fruiting space since~70% of the total yield of a grow is harvested in the first two flushes. But an extra few dry ounces of magic mushrooms are worth the trouble of getting them which is why the Towel Tek is worth it (but probably wouldn't be for edibles).

 

 

And I can certainly appreciate the challenge that growing orchids presents, especially when the magic mushroom harvest is in! I was learning about the nuts and bolts of breeding them before economic realities forced my friend to bail on the orchid business. But while it lasted his greenhouse was a pretty cool place to trip when they were all in bloom...

 

https://mycotopia.ne...e-2#entry719379

 

 

And of course, welcome to Mycotopia!


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#3 RastaCat

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Posted 12 June 2020 - 07:06 PM

thanks for the input TV.  i looked around and don't see a 'glossary' on this site.  that would be very beneficial to have so i could look up terms/abbreviations and know what folks are talking about.  after enough reading one can usually figure it out.  but would be easier and faster with a glossary.

 

so....the 'overlay'  not sure if it's in or not in the non-existent glossary.  from the context of what you said this is the cottony looking stuff.  is this also mycelium, but of a different form from the rhizomorphic?  

 

you say it forms an impervious layer....impervious to what?  oxygen, water/humidity, the pins can't penetrate  through it (i hate it when my pin can't penetrate)?

 

i've accomplished two flushes by placing bin back in darkness after the first flush to give it a 'rest' for one week.  then bringing it back out. i dunked once and all the cakes turned bluish and nothing more happened with them till i threw them out in the yard and a week or two later saw a few rebels had emerged.  would the bluish color be some contaminant or could it be the same blue color you get from the stalk of a shroom that has been damaged? 

 

will definitely try some scratching to spur pinning and see what happens. appreciate all your information and advice.  i'm going to be going through lots of posts at this site and gleaning info from them.  good place for info and to spur other ideas.  will check out the two links you referenced.

 

so the use of pots and water is good for keeping humidity high, but maybe too good;  unless i can also pair it with more fresh air flow. i'll test this out next growth cycle.



#4 TVCasualty

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Posted 13 June 2020 - 10:15 AM

There used to be a glossary, but the new forum software the site uses ("new" as of years ago) doesn't have one, unfortunately.

 

Overlay is to mycelium what hard-pan, dried mud is to soil. Water will run right off it in beads, but it doesn't just die so I imagine it's getting oxygen through it. Since pins form on the surface (they don't poke through anything) it inhibits them by creating a uniformly sealed surface that I suspect is largely made of dead cells since it stops expanding after a certain point and won't allow new growth or pins to form on it unless it's scratched open to allow oxygen and humidity to contact living mycelium. But I'm not sure if that's what's really happening, it just seems logical based on observing and messing with it.

 

If cakes turn blue during a dunk it suggests the dunk was too long and they had begun to "drown" (which begins once they deplete the dissolved oxygen in the water). Or did you add something like hydrogen peroxide to the dunk water? If there's too much H2O2 in the water it will cause bluing as well. Bluing is oxidation caused by damage, either physical like from picking them or chemical (as from exposure to peroxide).

 

There's no need for any kind of rest period in darkness (or one without darkness for that matter). That's not a trigger for fruiting. To maximize yield you want to dunk cakes for 12 hours right after you harvest a flush, then put them back in the bin for the next one.

 

Don't go deep with the scratching; you're just trying to open up a very thin layer of matted mycelium that's probably only a few cells deep so if the fork makes a mark on it, it's probably going deep enough.


Edited by TVCasualty, 13 June 2020 - 10:16 AM.


#5 RastaCat

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Posted 13 June 2020 - 05:18 PM

H202 is a super-oxidizer.  i know better than to spray it on anything i dont want oxidized.  so its great for sterilizing jars, lids, bins, pots, etc.  then just wait for a while and all turns to water and oxygen.  single celled organisms cannot survive contact with H202.

 

I did dunks per something i read somewhere, i believe it was 6 hrs.  but dont quote me on that one. i've also had the blue cake after merely misting a cake....so this certainly didn't drown them.  do you know if cold-shocking psilocybe is advised?  does it spur fruiting as in other fungi? okay, just read the rest.....i'll try a 12 hr dunk the next time and see how that goes, with no dark rest period. appreciate the input.  wish others were contributing.....

 

maybe i could compile a glossary as i go through the site and find words/abbreviations i don't know or someone else might not know.  wouldn't be much work since i'm already going to be going through the site. then it would just have to be added to the site by someone in authority.  

 

has anyone tried like putting a computer fan on a bin/tub to draw air out of it and in from the opposite side through a membrane like they use in the bags for substrate?  or perhaps using a small aquarium pump to push air into the bin and through a glass or jar of water.  this would filter out stuff....just like a vacuum cleaner that has a water chamber instead of a bag to collect all the debris. it wouldn't create a 'breeze' in there but it would inject fresh air on a constant basis. thanks again for posting....



#6 TVCasualty

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Posted 13 June 2020 - 09:14 PM




do you know if cold-shocking psilocybe is advised? 

 

 

 

For cubensis, it's not advised. Same goes for all tropical species that I know of.

 

 


 

 

has anyone tried like putting a computer fan on a bin/tub to draw air out of it and in from the opposite side through a membrane like they use in the bags for substrate?  or perhaps using a small aquarium pump to push air into the bin and through a glass or jar of water.  this would filter out stuff....just like a vacuum cleaner that has a water chamber instead of a bag to collect all the debris. it wouldn't create a 'breeze' in there but it would inject fresh air on a constant basis. thanks again for posting....

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, there are probably at least a few dozen threads detailing the computer fan approach around here scattered between this subforum, the vaults, and the archives. They're found most easily through a search engine like duckduckgo, though the ones in the archives or vaults were selected to be there so are usually put together the best. A few have tried the aquarium stone setup in various ways but I don't recall anyone sticking with it so I'm guessing it wasn't worth the trouble.

 

I got great results using a bin with a towel over it so long as I always kept the towel wet: https://mycotopia.ne...-wet-towel-tek/


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#7 RastaCat

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Posted 14 June 2020 - 04:24 PM

finally got a moment to check out the links.  i already live in a clime with plenty of humidity outdoors so the wet towel wouldn't be of help i dont believe.  i do like the idea of breaking up the cakes.  i've had a few shrooms emerge after having thrown the cakes out in the yard, but didnt break them up.  i'm going to break up the next ones and just put them out in the shade and see if anything happens.  i would think in summer, when we have lots of thunderstorms happening nearly every afternoon, and the sprinkler going 3 times per week they would stay moist enough to stay viable without any further attention.  the wild ones grow without me tending them right? 

 

i'm like you....always trying to figure out the simplest, easiest and most efficient method to everything.  i've recently been working on a method for the pf tek where i dont have to cook the cakes in the pot of boiling water.  not sure it will ever work, but doesn't hurt to try.  attempting to use peroxide in the brf mix. waiting for the peroxide to fully do its thing prior to innoculating with spores.  first batch was a complete disaster with contamination.  second attempt was better but i got contamination just at the top of the cake near the lid.  it didnt look like the cakes were 'solid' either.  like i didn't add enough egg to the recipe.  just kidding,  but the cakes were crumbly instead of solid.  so i have a few other ideas  about this and will continue on.   i haven't searched this site yet to see if any others have fooled around with such a project.  so i'm going to get on that. 



#8 PJammer24

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Posted 15 June 2020 - 09:06 AM

I thought this was an anti-fascist fruiting bin for a moment...



#9 TVCasualty

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Posted 15 June 2020 - 09:58 AM

finally got a moment to check out the links.  i already live in a clime with plenty of humidity outdoors so the wet towel wouldn't be of help i dont believe.  i do like the idea of breaking up the cakes.  i've had a few shrooms emerge after having thrown the cakes out in the yard, but didnt break them up.  i'm going to break up the next ones and just put them out in the shade and see if anything happens.  i would think in summer, when we have lots of thunderstorms happening nearly every afternoon, and the sprinkler going 3 times per week they would stay moist enough to stay viable without any further attention.  the wild ones grow without me tending them right? 

 

i'm like you....always trying to figure out the simplest, easiest and most efficient method to everything.  i've recently been working on a method for the pf tek where i dont have to cook the cakes in the pot of boiling water.  not sure it will ever work, but doesn't hurt to try.  attempting to use peroxide in the brf mix. waiting for the peroxide to fully do its thing prior to innoculating with spores.  first batch was a complete disaster with contamination.  second attempt was better but i got contamination just at the top of the cake near the lid.  it didnt look like the cakes were 'solid' either.  like i didn't add enough egg to the recipe.  just kidding,  but the cakes were crumbly instead of solid.  so i have a few other ideas  about this and will continue on.   i haven't searched this site yet to see if any others have fooled around with such a project.  so i'm going to get on that. 

 

I live in a subtropical climate that is usually very humid all the time, but unless it's constantly 95% or higher you'd still need to keep the towel wet or else keep a very close eye on it to ensure the surface of your substrate isn't drying out too much.

 

Using peroxide to sterilize BRF jars will almost certainly be disappointing, and not cost effective in the long run (especially if it won't work, which is likely since no one else who has tried it has reported success prepping BRF jars with H2O2, and a few have tried).

 

I of course have to recommend buying a pressure cooker, which is by far the best tool for the job. They can be used for more than just mycology, so if you also put it to work with preserves/canning food or cooking meals quickly you'll save a lot of time (which equals money) and it will eventually pay for itself. So you won't regret buying one even if you quit growing fungi (I have four, lol).


Edited by TVCasualty, 15 June 2020 - 09:58 AM.

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#10 Arathu

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 01:52 PM

We also have four of them......pressure cookers...and mine are the biggest............... :bat:

 

My All American is work of art......I'm going to can mushrooms and deer stew along with veggies this year....

 

The ability to steam sterilize, and work aseptically in a clean air stream via laminar hood, opens the horizons of mycology work by a couple of orders of magnitude....at least.....

 

And for the record I still use the towel over tub and paper towel hanging inside sometimes too for humidification it works well. Burlap sacks over my blue barrels soaked down serve the same purpose.....

 

In fact you're the one that I got the idea from in the first place TV.....a large bath towel makes one hell of a water wick too....good tool....

 

Well worth studying current techniques and protocol simply because it works well....IMHO and IME

 

A


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#11 TVCasualty

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 06:18 PM

We also have four of them......pressure cookers...and mine are the biggest............... :bat:

 

AA 941's FTW!!

 

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#12 Juthro

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 10:56 PM

We also have four of them......pressure cookers...and mine are the biggest............... :bat:

 

Its not the size of the pressure cooker, its how you use it that matters.... :ohmy:

 

I've only got one canner, an AA921, but it cans a LOT of fish, caribou, beans, tomato sauce... ect, ect..... 

Though I should have some kind of backup, now that you make me think about it. Just incase  :tinfoil:


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#13 Arathu

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Posted 06 July 2020 - 04:56 AM

And they are OUT OF STOCK everywhere too (at least where I looked). AA says they won't ship until October........ :tinfoil: Wu-Flu and such.....

 

Maybe it's mushroom growers buying them all up.....

 

Time for some yard and garage sale activity....shit I need to go check on lids and rings.

 

By the way Nice cakes Rasta...Welcome to Topia!

 

A



#14 snottybrood

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 08:25 PM

RastaCat, I really like your reasoning. Sounds like the clay works similar to perlite, wicking moisture to the air. I guess the slab-like crystal structure allows more air exchange, while the perlite holds the water in deep pores. I have seen some posts suggesting volcanic clay in the fruiting chamber, with good results. I want to try a similar material. Zeolite, or Stalite. Which have some interesting properties, but no glass dust *chef kiss*. Would love to see you duplicate these results with a humidity monitor. Archives is what you need for Glossary https://mycotopia.ne...html?1007372688

 

TV, Bulk Neglect TEK in the archives uses peroxide :biggrin: I personally didn't want to add it because of the reasons you mentioned, but better sanitary than sorry? Also do you think RastaCat would get less overlay with crumbled cakes?



#15 TVCasualty

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 12:13 PM

 

TV, Bulk Neglect TEK in the archives uses peroxide :biggrin: I personally didn't want to add it because of the reasons you mentioned, but better sanitary than sorry? Also do you think RastaCat would get less overlay with crumbled cakes?

 

Not to sterilize the substrate, though.



#16 snottybrood

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 01:32 PM

 

 

TV, Bulk Neglect TEK in the archives uses peroxide :biggrin: I personally didn't want to add it because of the reasons you mentioned, but better sanitary than sorry? Also do you think RastaCat would get less overlay with crumbled cakes?

 

Not to sterilize the substrate, though.

 

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#17 TVCasualty

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Posted 04 September 2020 - 11:06 AM

I would not recommend that approach. It makes no sense to inject peroxide after PCing the grain. If that tek works, it works in spite of the peroxide, not because of it.

 

Not all of the archived threads consist of what most growers would consider "best practices."



#18 RastaCat

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 03:59 PM

been away from the board too long, busy with vacation, and life and such.  i had a pic i took a while back and wanted to post it and give credit where credit is due, and also to encourage others to grow some zombie shrooms. 

 

so during the last episode TVCasuality recommended cutting up spent cakes and possibly getting a few more shrooms to come up.  so i had cakes that were duds,  i have no idea why they didn't produce anything.  fully myceliated.  put in bin as i have many times before but no fruiting.  decided to cut up into 1/4ths.  these are the 1/2 pint brf cakes made just like the original recipe. nothing special. put some outside in the shade and here's some of the result: 

 

it was around 10 days after putting them out there this pic was taken. i have been harvesting a few here and there since.  the last one i got was 5 weeks after having first put them out there.  they get no attention from me.  sprinklers go 3x a week and any rain that we get, which is often in summer.  i'm in east central florida so plenty of rain and warmth. also, the cakes have all disintegrated and the last shroom i got came out of 'seemingly' nowhere, but obviously still living mycelium on some substrate.  next time i get some cow manure compost/ mulch i'm going to put down an inch or so on the ground where i'm putting these spent cakes.  perhaps i'll get further growth and fruitiing. wouldn't hurt to try.  so i want to thank TVC for the great idear!!!

 

also, thanks to snotty for the link to the glossary.  will bookmark that for future fast access. 

 

now some clarification about my intended use of H2O2.... my idea was, and still is, the use of it in producing brf cakes.  INSTEAD of cooking the cakes in boiling water for one hour as a pasteurization process, i had the idea to use H2O2 in the place of the water when making the cake.  the vermiculite and brown rice flour  is mixed with peroxide and placed in the jars.  the peroxide kills off any contaminating spores from the brf/vermiculite mix just like cooking in the boiling water does.  then wait long enough for the peroxide to have fully oxidized and broken down into water and oxygen.  once that has occurred the cake is safe for innoculation of PC spores and the process continues exactly like the original pf tek.  if you were to innoculate with spores prior to the peroxide breaking down the spores would just be oxidized and destroyed by the peroxide.

 

as TVC points out, there is no point in doing anything with peroxide if you've already used pressure cooker to pasteurize the growing medium.  my idea is en lieu of all this cooking.  either pressured or otherwise. 

 

my first shot at this produced nothing without mold.  second effort with a bit more carefullness added produced cakes that did indeed myceliate, but on the top of some of the cakes i had a few with mold.  i'm thinking, perhaps, placing a layer of vermiculite casing over the top of the cake and then the lid of the jar could very well prevent this mold on top.  i'm going to attempt this with my next experiment.  this vermiculite layer IS in the basic pf tek. not sure why i didnt do it with the ones i already made.  since mold was only on the top, it makes cents to me that the cake was contaminated LATE in the mycelial growth, and from the top of the jar.  had the peroxide not worked to clean the brf cake i would have had mold throughout the cake. or at least along all sides.

 

the one inch of water in the bin and clay pots to wick it into the atmosphere of the bin definitely works.  i read where perlite was used but many said it was 'messy'.  i guess the stuff was sticking to the cakes that were placed on it....or...perhaps mold was growing on the perlite.  so i figured clay pots and water would accomplish the same thing, but without any mess.  and it does....plenty of humidity without any sort of humidity enhancing mechanisms being built.  but if TVC is correct about the 'overlay' being caused by too much humidity and not enough air exchange, then maybe its TOO effective.  the water evaporates right off the surface of the water as well, so maybe the clay pot isn't necessary at all, maybe any sort of platform would be fine to keep the cakes out of the water. 

 

for my next experiment i'm going to put this clay pot bin out in the lanai where there is a ceiling fan.  i'm just going to leave the lid of the bin off entirely. there will be plenty of humidity and the fan will constantly be wafting fresh air into the bin.  humidity here is nearly always 80% or more.  inside the bin will be even higher with all that water in there. temps are not an issue here this time of year.  i will place cakes made traditionally and also peroxide cleansed cakes in the bin.  that way i have a control group with which to compare and ensure the spores were still good and all.

 

THIS is definitely not being presented as 'best practices'!!!  which is why i posted it in the MAD SCIENTIST section.  just experiments and results is what i'm sharing. and hoping others will chime in with other ideas or their experiences with similar projects.

 

i know pressure cooker works like a charm.  but i'm not growing for commercial porpoises.  seem to be getting way more than enough fruits just growing on 1/2 pt cakes.  i'm thinking on getting some full pint jars and making larger cakes and seeing if the production increases. i can't see why it wouldnt.  this would still allow the usual cooking in the regular pot on the stove.  i'm also wanting to grow some oyster mushrooms via this but with larger sized cakes. just got a syringe of yella oyster mycelia so this project is about to take off.  

 

 

 

 


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#19 RastaCat

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 04:21 PM

sorry,  not sure how i managed to post twice. can't see where i can delete one of them. 



#20 TVCasualty

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 01:13 PM

Nice!

 

And FWIW, it's not my idea. I'm just the one who happened to pass it along.

 

 

sorry,  not sure how i managed to post twice. can't see where i can delete one of them. 

 

I hid the duplicate post. Gotta be a mod to do that.






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