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What's True?


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#1 Guy1298

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 12:35 AM

With regard to psychedelics, I've been unimpressed with some of the people I've met to be honest. Well, down in Peru, it's a big sales gig. Many of the Peruvians feed people lies to sell the "genuine" experience... every person you meet seems to have a shaman. It's understandable since its big money in a poor country.

 

On the other end of things, I happened across a notable foreign (american) ayahuasquero on my travels. For good reason, I won't mention his name. It's hard to describe, but I guess it wasn't what I expected. Yet, he's a guy that was friends with Terence McKenna, his brother, etc. There are big egos in that world, for sure. I've met gradations of people. I've met a woman who gave everything away to leave for Peru, worked as a facilitator. She spoke like a teacher and spoke of seeing angels. But I found her later emotionally destroyed by certain circumstances. I met another man, an ayahuasquero, who had really taken a turn. When I first met him he was clear and alert, within a few years, when I found him again he'd completely changed and seemed destroyed by circumstances. He was on heavy anti-anxiety meds. He seemed to act as if he knew so much, regurgitating some ego-dropping bs, but seemed susceptible to really simple forms of relational delusion. By that, I mean, he was angry and tended to target certain people for, sometimes, no good reason. Competitive as well. There was much more too. It's hard to sum up. 

 

It's not just psychedelics either. First Buddhist monastery I came across, the monks spent the greater part of the day, held up in their rooms playing video games. And again, the monks seem fairly underdeveloped as human beings. I often just refer to one of them as an asshole. I'll tell you guys a story. One of these monks would piss in water bottles while he played video games, then for some reason, he'd throw them out into the tall grass. He did this so many times that there were probably 100 bottles out there. Me and a friend cleaned them up. I'm thinking to myself... wtf? This was a relatively senior monk there too.

 

Now, let's consider something else. I'm often pretty skeptical. Having seen just this much of the psychedelic and buddhist community... then I move into meeting the people that saw the romantic ideas and attempted to live them. So, all those modern psychedelic healers and mindfulness teachers. When I come into contact with them, I just find myself thinking, you've got it wrong. I greatly suspect that they tricked themselves into not seeing what's obvious. They wanted to become "teachers" and "healers"... they wanted to be important, so they blinded themselves. Then, they can self-lovingly say, "I trained with so-and-so," of course, so-and-so was ... an abusive alcoholic! For example.

I don't know, but you get my drift? 

I said it before, but I think it's written into the story of my life. I take the story seriously enough, but I've got an inkling that it's BS. I found piss-poor monks for the same reason I was born into a family with an alcoholic father and an abused mother, a family of many more alcoholics and drug-users which would slowly kill themselves as I traversed my twenties. I found broken ayahuasqueros because I was meant to. Perhaps I sought it out. Or more likely, I don't trust anyone that isn't sitting in their own shit. 

So... what will reveal the answer? What's the truth? 

I took a big dose of mushrooms many years ago. I remember I picked up the phone and dialed 911. I was totally delusional at the time. I heard a voice on the other end. I spoke to him... Then, I noticed that it was me that was on the other end. The next day, I checked my phone and realized I hadn't dialed 911 at all. Hah. 

There's a great mystery. I'm playing by its rules. 


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#2 Guy1298

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 10:19 AM

I took some blue lotus last night. That stuff is interesting. Nothing like mushrooms, of course, very auto-pilot, and only a shallow euphoria to speak of. Enjoy the rant... maybe. :). 

 

I think I dreamt that I was in a vampire movie. Eventually, I was dreaming I was at some concert and weighing and eating oddly shaped pills. I took them for MDMA or something. Having never taken them, I was pretty excited. I woke up, shortly after.

 

I'm thinking to myself, it's time for a hike... But, first I'ma gonna eat breakfast. Maybe mushrooms. Maybe not. 

 

 

I actually think this thread doesn't represent my mindset. It was momentary, looking back, being surprised, and slightly angry. In a world where it's possible that a person might be found living out his days miserably, hatefully, it's possible that all of this is to. The same bad habits infect every spiritual endeavor...

 

What's wrong with it? I guess it's important to not be deceived. What's true? My opinion is more that deception is woven into sight itself, it's contained in the objects, it's contained in the subjects. And my opinion resides in that same deception. 


Edited by Guy1298, 20 June 2020 - 11:20 AM.

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#3 Alder Logs

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 12:09 PM

 

The same bad habits infect every spiritual endeavor...

 

So fuck the endeavor (or the endeavorer).  There is always being.  Not always bright and shining, but it has few demands that we should be something.  God's own cruise control.  


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#4 ElPirana

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 12:30 PM

There’s spiritual bypassing, all kinds of bypassing. How many people will actually look closely at themselves? To look at what feels bad, what feels fearful? It’s easier to play a game, the spiritual game, the psychedelic game, the shaman & healer game, every game imaginable, so as not to look at that part of yourself.
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#5 Myc

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 01:31 PM

When seeking answers always remember that the Truth cannot be told.

 

The Tao which can be told is not the Tao.

 

You can only live the Truth. It cannot be told.

Telling the Truth blinds both the teller and the listener - thereby placing both on a slippery slope.


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#6 Guy1298

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 05:11 PM

Thanks for the advice, all of you. 


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#7 clumsy

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Posted 20 June 2020 - 10:33 PM

It all BS because there is no self: https://stevestankev...-self-illusion/https://youtu.be/ZIDWcWn21gghttps://youtu.be/fajfkO_X0l0https://qr.ae/T3nExohttps://youtu.be/mthDxnFXs9k?t=14m51s.


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#8 GORF

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 01:52 PM

We are stardust.

Dont understand it, but I like it. A lot!
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#9 Coopdog

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 03:08 PM

Guy1298 I think I have seen you grow one hell of a lot since you first came here. You are honest and straightforward. You have done the inner work to find what reality is there for us to realize, and seen that it can't be grasped and kept, and moved on into another mindspace. Not many people will put in that much honest effort and your observations of people who did not are true, and maybe they have found what they are capable of, which is different for every single one of us. Most of those monks were probably born into it or nearly so, so that getting an xbox and a few games is like their own higher level experience compared to the quiet reclusiveness of their lives. Maybe it is their own form of escape past all the mindfulness and bullshit of THEIR world and we all have different ideas of what is important to us. We all need that escapism. Some people find it inside themselves, some find it in Call of Duty. It is ALL subjective.


Edited by Coopdog, 21 June 2020 - 03:08 PM.

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#10 Guy1298

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Posted 03 July 2020 - 05:43 PM

The desire to up the dose on my mushroom trips has come again. I'm thinking this time, with my dad gone, and life sort of flailing about in a meaningless sort of way (not necessarily a bad way though), I'm ready to take a greater dose... for what reason? I guess I'd like to see what mushrooms really have to offer, when you don't hold back, and perhaps when you cease to be one that can hold anything back. 

 

I've mentioned it a few times that despite having done large doses early on, the mushrooms didn't quite work on me back then, so I really don't think I know what a large dose can do. And because of how much fear I experienced back then, I was made very careful from there on. There were those low-dose experiences with long pre-meditations in darkness that led me to temporary body dissolution and "enlightened" insight of sorts. But, I think I'm looking to be blown away. There were also my ayahuasca trips. I definitely feel safer with ayahuasca. But, I think it's important for me to return to mushrooms in full earnestness, the same that had me taking those large doses as a youngster... I've come along way since then. 

 

No hurry though. I've got work to do on myself before I do it... I'll give it between 3 months and a year. 



#11 TVCasualty

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 11:52 AM

The first post of this thread reminded me of some Leonard Cohen lyrics:
 
I heard of a saint who had loved you
So I studied all night in his school
He taught that the duty of lovers
Is to tarnish the golden rule
And just when I was sure that his teachings were pure
He went and drowned himself in the pool
His body is gone

yeah but back here on the lawn
His spirit continues to drool
 
 
Asking "What's true?" is an incomplete question IMO.

 

Inquiries into 'truth' need to establish a well-defined context within which any answers we might uncover would be meaningful.
 
Physical truth seems to be an emergent property of the frame of reference of one's perception.
 
Political truth seems to be an emergent property of the dynamics of power and culture.
 
Spiritual truth seem to be an emergent property of awareness and intent.
 
So by changing our (or someone else's) frame of reference, culture, social status, awareness, or intent we can change what we (or they) determine to be true. This doesn't mean that "truth" doesn't exist, just that it exists in the same sort of way that "society" exists, which is to say it's a thing made of other things and so can be changed by changing the things it emerges from.
 
 

I actually think this thread doesn't represent my mindset. It was momentary, looking back, being surprised, and slightly angry. In a world where it's possible that a person might be found living out his days miserably, hatefully, it's possible that all of this is to. The same bad habits infect every spiritual endeavor...

What's wrong with it? I guess it's important to not be deceived. What's true? My opinion is more that deception is woven into sight itself, it's contained in the objects, it's contained in the subjects. And my opinion resides in that same deception.

 

 

It's not that deception is woven into perception (IMO), it's that perception is always an act of interpretation, and the interpretation of what we perceive takes place before we consciously perceive it.

 

What determines how we interpret our perceptions emerges from what we perceive, what we fail to perceive, our social context, our awareness, our intent, and our memories (which to me are basically a chronicle of how all those variables were specified by us in the past; what we "used to think" but can still remember). Those variables can change considerably, sometimes in mere seconds. Which means truth can change that fast, too. That's not to say that all truths are subjective, just that we can build different structures of arguably-objective truth depending on the building blocks we choose to incorporate (e.g., "figures don't lie but liars figure"). In this view there are no fundamental facts underlying the foundation of reality that act as ultimate, irreducible quanta of "Truth" and that the concept of truth is undefined until it emerges from our specifying a context to observe and discuss it in.

 

That said, deception is still a thing that exists, too. But I think of it as something else that involves a deliberate intent to propagate false stimuli intended to induce specific interpretations that benefit the deceiver. From this angle, self-deception appears to be a phenomenon where the unconscious part of our brain that's doing the interpreting sends our conscious awareness false interpretations of our perceptions because we're perceiving things that are hard or impossible to reconcile with our conscious intent. That's pretty much what the "Dunning-Kruger Effect" describes; the benefit to the self-deceiver is not becoming aware of their own incompetence, which tends to be a rather unpleasant thing to be aware of.

 

I also suspect that one of the most subtle and effective means of deceiving others involves the deceiver disingenuously invoking multiple contexts simultaneously in a discussion. One way to tell this is happening when someone walks back something they expressed with the comment that they were "just kidding!" or being sarcastic. It's probably also essential to successfully "gaslighting" people.

 

Of course, writing all of this out doesn't mean any of it is true. But from where I'm sitting right now it appears to be. I might be sitting somewhere else tomorrow, or possibly in a few minutes.

 

 

 

When it comes to going on high-dose psychedelic journeys, have you considered cactus/mescaline?

 

I strongly recommend whole cactus over extracted mesc, and 50 grams of powdered cactus skins that I think were San Pedro gave me everything that the psychedelic experience has to offer and did so without any issues other than a slight bit of reflexive fear in the face of the sheer intensity of what I was experiencing. But it went away quickly as I settled in to flying through the Hubble Ultra Deep Field in my comfy chair at Warp 11 for about ten hours straight (with the whole thing lasting 14 hours, after which I felt spent but ecstatic; I didn't even experience any nausea at all).


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#12 Guy1298

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 09:48 PM

What's immediately experienced is true enough, as it is. Logic is a device to figure truth from truth, but not to determine what's true to begin with. What's true is what is. And what is, well, if it's determined that what is can be something else... then what's true is not what is, but what is (over there and then). So, what is, but not only over there and then, but both over here and there and now and then?

 

That's my response to what you wrote. Heh. Not a direct response though. 

 

I've tried cactus a few times. But, at the moment, I think I've got something between me and the mushroom that needs to be sorted.


Edited by Guy1298, 04 July 2020 - 09:49 PM.

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#13 TVCasualty

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 09:16 AM

What we interpret as reality does seem to get Strange Loopy pretty fast (in the Hofstadter sense). Here I am, thinking. And here I am, thinking about thinking. And here I am, being aware of thinking about thinking. And here I am, being aware of being aware of thinking about thinking. It's amazing we ever find the time to have a novel experience with all this going on all the time. Or most of the time for most people, I guess.

 

Before I read any of his stuff I thought of consciousness as a phenomenon similar to two mirrors facing each other where one is the world and the other is our perception of it. It's amazing what insights can be gained by simply opening up your medicine cabinet in your bathroom while on mushrooms; it's reflection-turtles all the way in...

 

I couldn't tell you which one begins the cascade of recursive reflections that we interpret as "consciousness," though (which came first, the mirror ...or the mirror?). And one of the mirrors is angled just a bit off from facing the other one directly, which is how novelty slips into the back-and-forth between the manifest world and our awareness of it. So maybe consciousness is mostly a function of strange-loopy mirrors reflecting each other with a dash of Chaos/Novelty added to keep it interesting and to make self-awareness possible? "Novelty" can be interpreted in this context most broadly as information we lacked previously, which we had to learn in order to become aware of.

 

The self couldn't know it existed without there also being an awareness of a world that is not the self, which seems to be where novelty fits in since the existence of novelty proves that there's more going on that what we're aware of, which in turns suggests the existence of an external world (to the dismay of solipsists, I reckon). If we get this delicate balance right we can begin to construct truth-structures out of whatever arbitrary aspects of reality we choose to incorporate into it. We can verify them as such by noting if they "work" for others, too (meaning reproducible results/conclusions). For example, the fact that airplanes are reliably capable of actual flight suggests that the truth-structures we've built concerning aerodynamics and wing designs are accurate even if we don't really understand the underlying physics of lift, which nobody does yet.

 

It gets even stranger when we consider that the "other" mirror (the one that equates to "the world") is ultimately a projection of the Self that reflects it. So it seems that our only real connection to an external, objective world is through the slight opening created by consciousness not being a direct reflection of the world. We can only see the endless reflections of two mirrors facing each other by peeking in from the side; if they were reflecting each other perfectly then there would be no way "in" to perceive the phenomenon.

 

But if that opening gets too large or too small then I suspect it results in what would be perceived by others as mental illness, with the specific form of it depending on whether someone is "living inside their head" (meaning little to no contact with consensus reality, probably resulting in symptoms like catatonia) or reacting without introspection to nothing but novelty (living "outside" their head all the time, like an animal relying entirely on instinct and reflex and probably resulting in symptoms like extreme paranoia). Or something like that; this is a work in progress.

 

If nothing else, thinking about this "stuff" is as good a way to pass the time 'til we die and maybe finally find out what's "really" going on as any.


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