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Contamination issues - looking for assistance and guidance.


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#1 2Ape2

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 02:52 PM

I'm looking for any input anyone is willing to give.  This is my first go at this and I'm learning a lot.  If you look at my current results you can probably immediately tell how much of a new guy I am.  Bear with me.

 

Agar is a standard MEA recipe with 5g potato flakes added, no dye, PC'd for 40 min.  I used a SAB for all of these. I wiped everything down with 91% ISO but am told 70% is better.  I will use that moving forward.  I purchased a syringe from a sponsor.  First run was 5/29 and second run was 6/9.  Initially my temp control was terrible - ranging from 64-86F.  I've fixed that problem; pretty steady at 80F now.  I did not use the syringe needle on the 5/29 run and had control issues, getting way more liquid out than I wanted.  I used the needle for the 6/9 run and had much better control.  Flame sterilized between plates - loop and needle.  From what I see, the bacterial contamination follows the liquid.  They are just absolutely UGLY.  I had no mycelial growth until the temperature issue was fixed then a couple of plates from both the 5/29 and 6/9 germinated at the same time - almost appearing to grow from under the bacterial cultures.  Here are pictures for evidence of what I'm seeing here.

 

This one has me baffled (well, they all do).  You can see it follows where my loop drew the liquid.  The pink hue has me thinking some sort of fungal contamination.  The rest just appears bacterial.  No signs of anything mycelial - mold or target fungi.

 

104762385_268957544180355_8375027055003456554_n.jpg

 

This one had a small patch of white mycelium.  Impossible for me to tell if it is target species, white mold, or something else.  104485772_262720361722578_2480496752409398233_n.jpg

 

These two are the same plate, obiously.  The first just shows a bright white patch of mycelium germinated from the end of where the smear started.  In the SAB (closer look) it appeared like the target species versus white mold.  It could also be a pin mold.  I transfered it today to a fresh plate to see what happens.  The second picture is with the lid off to show the bacteria on the smear pattern.  I was hopeful the fanned out area by each end of the Z would develop mycelium.  It hasn't so far.     104952272_270295970698317_4309943241635969316_n.jpg 104701345_663255674224319_3243966652245855485_n.jpg

 

I just can't figure out where the hole in my technique is or why it would appear it stuck to just where the liquid touched.  They syringe was kept in the refrigerator, wrapped.  I wiped it all down with 91% ISO before using it on both occasions.  I flame sterilized the needle and the loop between each plate as well - again, I didn't use the needle on the 5/29 run and ended up with way to much liquid.   Any input would be greatly appreciated.  While I expect to carry the contamination over, I did my best to isolate some of the mycelium in a couple of the plates and transferred each to a fresh plate.  We will see what happens next.   An upside, I'm enjoying the learning process and trying to sort out where things are derailing.


Edited by coorsmikey, 21 June 2020 - 04:50 PM.
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#2 Myc

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 03:12 PM

Those plates all appear to be contaminated. I don't see any fungal mycelium present.

 

Did you keep any control plates poured from the batch that you're experimenting with?

If not. In the future, save one or two plates as controls. If they stay blank - it's an indicator that your plates are clean.

 

Contamination follows the streaking. --- This is useful information.

Now you can back up and review your loop sterilization technique. You'll also need to re-examine your needle sterilization technique.

And you'll want to re-consider removal of the needle between inoculations. I just tend to leave the needle attached to the syringe after successful, aseptic installation. Give it a little squirt and then flame sterilize for subsequent inoculations.

 

By removing the needle - you may have contaminated your solution in the syringe. -- Depending upon how you handled it.


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#3 sandman

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 03:55 PM

Im not sure where the loop comes in to play here...did you squirt the spores on to the plate and then streak that puddle with a loop? If so that is not nevesarry just get the smallest little drop on the center of a plate, tilt it around,  and leave it alone.

 

It would seem that your inoculant is contaminated with bacteria. Bad spore syringe or maybe you contaminated it by swirling it around with the loop or something. But probably just bad syringes.


Edited by sandman, 21 June 2020 - 03:56 PM.

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#4 FunG

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 03:56 PM

Sounds to me like you received a dirty syringe.

I skip agar and just do 1 single ms grain jar, skip the shake after inoculating and wait for germination. If the syringe is clean then all points of contact the solution makes in the grain jar will germinate cleanly....saves a huge hassle from agar....which in your case you could have benefited from doing some test runs with the plates prior to inoculating that way you could have better pinpointed where the contamination is entering from.

Also, when I do any kind of agar work (I use a glovebox, sabs are stupid cause they're not airtight) I wrap my tools in tinfoil and sterilize them for 20minutes at 15psi then when ready place them inside the glovebox and open from within, the trick to avoid cross contamination is to have more then one razor, one for clean growth and one for dirty plates.... I just use exacto blades in place of a scalpal so I cant speak for you on how to go about that but it's what works for me.

Defiantly you need to get rings with gloves attached to the sab and turn it into a glovebox is my highest recommendation, to many people have problems with molds and bacteria while working in sabs just because some people have had success with then the bottom line is they're not airtight, air currents can pass threw into them....
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#5 sandman

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 04:23 PM

Disregard that advice to turn your sab into a glovebox that is ludicrous. Gloved boxes dramatically reduce your movement and comfort and don't add any benefit. Practically everyone out in the OMC is using a SAB just fine so you can't say they are stupid or don't work. What old fashioned advice! Gloves suck your hands will be soaking wet inside of those after 20 minutes of working. What a nightmare.


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#6 FunG

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 04:49 PM

I never noticed my hands becoming wet with sweat while working and I dont disagree with them sucking for movement and getting them on and off is the real s.o.b but I wont ever begin sterile work in a box that has two holes wide enough for the arms to pass threw, immediately after its uncorked to begin work is when it's no longer a sterile environment. I see very few people using properly constructed gloveboxs these days but also see that contamination is alive and well in sab users grows.

#7 2Ape2

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 05:04 PM

Plates are definitely contaminated...  I may have confused something, I didn't take the needle off in between plates but I did flame sterilize both the loop and the needle between plates.  I did not use a needle attached to the syringe in the 5/29 run but I did wipe everything down well with ISO.  Just the same, it could be one source of the contamination.  By flame sterilize I held the loop in the flame until it was red hot.  It was red hot up approximately an inch.  The needle followed the same basic procedure, getting it red hot a little over 1/2 way up the needle before the plastic.

 

Putting just a drop in the center is a good idea.  Smearing comes in from other literature and a throwback from college biology days.  

 

I didn't keep any control plates but I had some extra I'd stored in the fridge since 5/29.  No contamination noticed out of the fridge but we will see soon.  I used 4 today and each received a transfer.  If contam shows up elsewhere on the plate then I'll see the issue, for sure.

 

SAB vs Glovebox - before I decided which way to go I read up on the pros-cons of each.  I think each have a benefit.  I decided on a SAB but will keep the contam issue in mind moving forward.  Based on how my contamination looks I don't think it has anything to do with airborne contamination.  However, I don't know enough to be sure so that's why I'm here.  I need to look at all angles and learn.  

 

It is possible for bacteria and molds to survive flame sterilization when it gets red hot?  Again, I'm new but it just doesn't seem possible.

 

 

Thank you and I remain open to any and all input.  


Edited by 2Ape2, 21 June 2020 - 05:04 PM.


#8 FunG

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 06:01 PM

After taking a better look at your pictures I dont notice any salvageable myc in either plate but loads of contamination that's for sure.... I'd blame the syringe, sucks when a vendor syringe is the culprit but if it was anything else youd have clean myc and very little contamination given you followed the process to a science. Everywhere the spore solution made contact with the agar is where the contaminates are heaviest....that's why I say syringe.

#9 p2p

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Posted 21 June 2020 - 08:49 PM

Most of the time, with this type of contam, it is the syringe that would be the cause. I have experienced this multiple times and the only solution is to use an antibiotic to deal with the bacterial contam in order to see any mycelium growing.

 

Of course, if you have access to a new syringe, it would be easier to just start fresh.

However, if this culture is important, antibiotic from a tetracycline family can help.



#10 PJammer24

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 08:47 AM

I never noticed my hands becoming wet with sweat while working and I dont disagree with them sucking for movement and getting them on and off is the real s.o.b but I wont ever begin sterile work in a box that has two holes wide enough for the arms to pass threw, immediately after its uncorked to begin work is when it's no longer a sterile environment. I see very few people using properly constructed gloveboxs these days but also see that contamination is alive and well in sab users grows.

I get 90% success rate or better using a SAB... If you give it 30 min for the spores to settle and you don't have the HVAC running in your house, windows open, or fans running, SABs work great for sterile work... If the air is still, the spores drop out of the air and you can have great success rates using a SAB... Glove boxes are completely unnecessary and a pain to work with...

 

You give some of the most ridiculous advice... It's pretty clear that a lot of what you suggest has come from posts made by inexperienced people and not from your own experience... Have you ever had experience using a SAB? You would know that what you posted simply isn't true...

 

You may wanna wait until you actually know what you are talking about prior to running around giving people shitty advice... I'm not usually a dick, but you have started to become a bit of a forum joke between some long term members who are getting annoyed by you giving shitty advice to people who are too inexperienced to realize it...



#11 2Ape2

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 06:04 PM

Check this out...  So, I pulled a total of three samples from two separate plates.  This was 4 days ago.  Two of those clearly brought bacteria over with them; but, one of them is looking quite promising.  I'm going to call it beginners luck and the jury is still out but it looks promising to me.

 

One of the bacterial plates that had some mycelium - it didn't look like mold to me so I figured I might as well try.  I pulled some mycelium off the very edge of the plate.  That one is still growing mycelium but definitely brought over bacteria with it.  The second transfer from this plate - you can see where I pulled it from.  The second picture is the to-date results of that spot.  

 

This one.png

 

105484634_401840670703265_9149702719912810648_n.jpg



#12 sandman

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 08:02 PM

I dunno about that man that transfer plate doesnt look super good it's hard to say for sure but it kinda doesn't really look right. The og plate is a lovecraftian nightmare man I dont really see any good mycelium on that ,,, def need to start some fresh spores dont count on that being anything


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#13 FunG

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 04:44 AM

I never noticed my hands becoming wet with sweat while working and I dont disagree with them sucking for movement and getting them on and off is the real s.o.b but I wont ever begin sterile work in a box that has two holes wide enough for the arms to pass threw, immediately after its uncorked to begin work is when it's no longer a sterile environment. I see very few people using properly constructed gloveboxs these days but also see that contamination is alive and well in sab users grows.

I get 90% success rate or better using a SAB... If you give it 30 min for the spores to settle and you don't have the HVAC running in your house, windows open, or fans running, SABs work great for sterile work... If the air is still, the spores drop out of the air and you can have great success rates using a SAB... Glove boxes are completely unnecessary and a pain to work with...

You give some of the most ridiculous advice... It's pretty clear that a lot of what you suggest has come from posts made by inexperienced people and not from your own experience... Have you ever had experience using a SAB? You would know that what you posted simply isn't true...

You may wanna wait until you actually know what you are talking about prior to running around giving people shitty advice... I'm not usually a dick, but you have started to become a bit of a forum joke between some long term members who are getting annoyed by you giving shitty advice to people who are too inexperienced to realize it...

Wow, I'm hurt. Wheres stonnerkidd? Pretty sure he just finished a nice grow I advised him on.

And I'm pretty darn certain I've posted enough p.cubensis grows the short time I've been a member to prove my credability unlike yourself pjammer...or others. Hell, I just hauled a little over a lb of gwm this past week, I'm not using shoeboxes and cakes.

You didnt know that cubes overlay
You once said psilocin was present in mushrooms when it is in fact a chemical conversion that happens after ingestion of a psilocybe....

And I'll say it again proudly, sabs blow for sterile work.... a glovebox however much of a pain in the ass it is to work in has a guaranteed 100% success rate. Sabs are fairly new before it was juat gloveboxs. Most the "new" stuff is bs....if you open up a culture dish in a sab with arm openings you're going to be causing a air current just sticking your arms threw let alone what passes back and forth between the arm openings.

Anyways, I've had to many people with sabs ask why their shit is contaminated and that's why...

And I'm also finding out that some private smaller spore vendors are selling on reddit and other sites and they suck at making spore prints/syringes and that's leading everyone to believe that syringes all contain contams, sound familiar pjammer?

If you're going to disrespect a devote of p.cubensis know what you're talking about.

Sabs suck

That is all
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#14 Uncle G

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 05:38 AM

. Glove boxes are completely unnecessary and a pain to work with...

 

You give some of the most ridiculous advice... It's pretty clear that a lot of what you suggest has come from posts made by inexperienced people and not from your own experience... Have you ever had experience using a SAB? You would know that what you posted simply isn't true...

 

You may wanna wait until you actually know what you are talking about prior to running around giving people shitty advice... I'm not usually a dick, but you have started to become a bit of a forum joke between some long term members who are getting annoyed by you giving shitty advice to people who are too inexperienced to realize it.

 

I would love to have a flowhood and lab but I also like to proof you dont have to have a bunch of equipment to do any of this.  One thing I learned back in the day that anytime I had to say I am sorry I am being a dick on here.  I was saying something I should not say.  I use a glove box just because it was quick and easy to build.  I think its all good experience.  I can use a piece a plastic and yahoo bottle pull shit off that most cant pull off.  I think that is experience and not lack of.  

 

There is not a substitute for confidence and good steady movement in this hobby.  

 

Edit:  I am not going to remit the above but PJ said sorry to FunG.   My late friend Eastwood and whose spirit is still here with us.  Told me one night when I had been being ass.  Hey this is "suppose to be fun".  He is and will always be correct on that. 


Edited by Uncle G, 25 June 2020 - 06:07 AM.

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#15 Uncle G

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 05:48 AM

 

 

I never noticed my hands becoming wet with sweat while working and I dont disagree with them sucking for movement and getting them on and off is the real s.o.b but I wont ever begin sterile work in a box that has two holes wide enough for the arms to pass threw, immediately after its uncorked to begin work is when it's no longer a sterile environment. I see very few people using properly constructed gloveboxs these days but also see that contamination is alive and well in sab users grows.

I get 90% success rate or better using a SAB... If you give it 30 min for the spores to settle and you don't have the HVAC running in your house, windows open, or fans running, SABs work great for sterile work... If the air is still, the spores drop out of the air and you can have great success rates using a SAB... Glove boxes are completely unnecessary and a pain to work with...

You give some of the most ridiculous advice... It's pretty clear that a lot of what you suggest has come from posts made by inexperienced people and not from your own experience... Have you ever had experience using a SAB? You would know that what you posted simply isn't true...

You may wanna wait until you actually know what you are talking about prior to running around giving people shitty advice... I'm not usually a dick, but you have started to become a bit of a forum joke between some long term members who are getting annoyed by you giving shitty advice to people who are too inexperienced to realize it...

Wow, I'm hurt. Wheres stonnerkidd? Pretty sure he just finished a nice grow I advised him on.

And I'm pretty darn certain I've posted enough p.cubensis grows the short time I've been a member to prove my credability unlike yourself pjammer...or others. Hell, I just hauled a little over a lb of gwm this past week, I'm not using shoeboxes and cakes.

You didnt know that cubes overlay
You once said psilocin was present in mushrooms when it is in fact a chemical conversion that happens after ingestion of a psilocybe....

And I'll say it again proudly, sabs blow for sterile work.... a glovebox however much of a pain in the ass it is to work in has a guaranteed 100% success rate. Sabs are fairly new before it was juat gloveboxs. Most the "new" stuff is bs....if you open up a culture dish in a sab with arm openings you're going to be causing a air current just sticking your arms threw let alone what passes back and forth between the arm openings.

Anyways, I've had to many people with sabs ask why their shit is contaminated and that's why...

And I'm also finding out that some private smaller spore vendors are selling on reddit and other sites and they suck at making spore prints/syringes and that's leading everyone to believe that syringes all contain contams, sound familiar pjammer?

If you're going to disrespect a devote of p.cubensis know what you're talking about.

Sabs suck

That is all

 

 

Yeah you know arrogance is high in this hobby and our founder knew it well.  But at the end of the day we are all just punks that started off in our closets.  

 

Very humble thing started all of this.  It was a card board box, a syringe and piece paper.  Then we grew past the fish tanks, splash guards, and cakes. Most people on here now haven't ever made a print jar.  

 

Its all good experience.  And for what it is worth.  I kept my AC on so my hands didnt get sweaty. 

 

Good Vibes Punks and have good Thursday.  Get ready for 4th!!!  Its right around the corner.  



#16 sandman

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 09:21 AM

 


You once said psilocin was present in mushrooms when it is in fact a chemical conversion that happens after ingestion of a psilocybe....

 

This is totally easily verifiable wrong. "The concentrations of psilocin and psilocybin, as determined by high-performance liquid chromatography, are in the range of 0.14–0.42% and 0.37–1.30% (dry weight) in the whole mushroom, 0.17–0.78% and 0.44–1.35% in the cap, and 0.09 and 0.30%/0.05–1.27% in the stem, respectively."  that is on the wikipedia page of cubensis which I am sure is a conspiracy against you. Wait it's not https://www.research...hrooms_in_Japan

 

Im having some formatting trouble so bear with me lol

 

"A glovebox is a 100% chance of success" 

 

Yoooooooooooooooooooo wtf? This is not true. 

 

While I do agree with the sentiment that we should be nicer to each other you say some really problematic things funG. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. But when you have unwarranted confidence and refuse to acknowledge your mistakes that is trouble. PJ may have been out of line but he wouldn't have called you out if you did not have this overconfidence in being wrong that he has noticed often enough. He definitely could have put it a bit softer.


Edited by sandman, 25 June 2020 - 09:47 AM.


#17 FunG

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 09:55 AM

Point out the problematic things I say.

Substrates with a nitrogen supplement produce stronger mushrooms (cannot verify) but not a problem.

And coffee grounds can be used in a substrate.

Sabs suck because they're not airtight

I didnt know my opinion was going to razzle anyone and I still call bs on the psilocin research. Psilocin is the by product of psilocybe it's what our bodies convert psilocybin into or else it would be on the controlled drugs and substance act if found in the tissue, instead it's just psilocybe.

I dont trust "new" information on p.cubensis

I might as well try dunking my fully colonized grains again hahaha *facepalm* that thread ruined more peoples grows then anything I've seen before and is a prime example of why I dont trust people that dont post "their" pictures or if they do, authenticate them some how. No stealing images and posting them. And besides if you followed the cultivation picture of the day thread you'd see that I'm quite experienced with p.cubensis to to call me inexperienced is a total oxymoron.

That's all I'm saying.

#18 sandman

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 10:02 AM

 It's most often a waste of time to try to change someones mind when they prove themselves to be delusional and self aggrandizing. I never said you weren't experienced with cubes I just said many of the things you say are wrong. I'm sorry that you were unable to figure out how to use a SAB but they do not suck it is simply a skill you could or would not develop. I linked a scientific study that shows the amounts of something you said only exists as a metabolite of our body and you double down that is called delusion. I've been in some real low places in life myself and it makes it easier to recognize these traits. Seek some help, talk to someone that cares about you. What is really wrong friend. It's going to be ok. Nothing else you said in that last part  I have any particular issue with though not sure where you were going there. Just relax man it's fine. I wish you the best. I'm sure you are a fine grower I have respect for all of us who dare to tangle with the magic. Lets all get back on track at being good at that stuff and not so egotistical.  Ego will be the death of us all, and the whole point of mushrooms is to dissolve that problematic ego for me. Often stray from the path myself have to strive to be better.

 

Lets get this thread off you and back on the OP and his contamination problems now. Show us how that agar is looking now?


Edited by sandman, 25 June 2020 - 10:35 AM.


#19 2Ape2

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 09:44 AM

 

Lets get this thread off you and back on the OP and his contamination problems now. Show us how that agar is looking now?

 

I appreciate the debate.  I looked into both glove box tek and SAB tek and made my choice.  I'm new to this but have enough miles on the body to understand the pros-cons of each.  SAB is all I need for what I am looking to accomplish.  Maybe when I open my gourmet mushroom op I'll go glove box.  That is a ways down the road, if ever.

 

Back to the topic.  Here are some updated pictures - all SUCK as far as quality of picture,  I apologize for that.  Here are my thoughts.  First, the G1 plates are all gnarly,and that is possibly a mild understatement.  I've accepted the fact that the syringe was just that dirty.  Lesson there - I'd read they could be dirty but I underestimated how dirty.  I am absolutely fascinated by a few things.  I didn't include pictures of all my G1 plates but I included one that had the Z pattern on it.  Originally the Z appeared strictly bacteria.  In truth, I believe now the spores were waiting their chance under the bacteria.  If you look at it now mycelium has nearly completely taken over the same Z pattern.  Of course, the bacteria is still there, just mixed in with the base of the mycelium.  So, now I understand why some of the bacterial colonies appeared yellow with a brighter yellow central area - it was spores hanging out, planning their attack.  Lesson here:  Don't give up.  Wait and watch.  What you can't see in the pic is there is two distinct areas fanning out from each end of the Z and they are begging to merge.  I suspect that is mycelium beginning to form.  Target species?  I think so (am hopeful) but I won't know for awhile.  Next is my one T1 plate that doesn't show any signs of bacterial growth.  After comparing a lot of mold and target species mycelium pictures I am convinced this is tomentose target species.  I read one discussion on how genetics and high nutrient content can contribute to tomentose growth.  Seems plausible and I know my recipe resulted in a higher than needed nutrient contact.  500 ml water, 7 mg agar-agar, 5 mg LME (dry), 5 mg potato flakes.  Call it a new guy didn't really understand why he was doing what he was doing decision to add the potato flakes.  Lesson:  When you are new and don't know what you're doing, follow the recipe.  Anther picture shows a hazy closeup of another T1 plate.  I pulled this mycelium off the same plate as the tomentose growth plate.  I actually pulled two small pieces off and this one has the broadest margins.  The second has a small margin but brought a lot of bacteria over with it.  Additionally, I rough handled this plate during transfer and it clearly introduced additional bacterial.  The final pictures are my back up plan and they are looking happy.  I hope to get some spore prints for future work.

 

At the end of the day I most likely will throw several of the G1 plates and hold on to the plate with the Z pattern to see what happens with the margin and experiment with transferring mycelium over that is known to be contaminated.  I am enjoying the learning process.  

 

T1 - Apparent clean transfer - Tomentose growth.  The weird lines and spots are vapor collecting on the inside of the plate.   The area I have them incubating is held steady at 79-80.  The room I photographed was less than 70 and they began fogging up almost immediately.  Again my apologies for the terrible pictures.

tomentose.jpg

 

Just 4 of my plates both G1 and T1 pictured

plates.jpg

 

When i say gnarly, I mean it is truly gnarly looking.  It is ugly but fascinating the mycelium has emerged after being buried under a bacterial colony that followed the exact same pattern.  

105591015_207890560365239_4189521972913634575_n.jpg

 

This is a T1 plate from the same plate that gave me the tomentose growth.  Just showing there is an expanding margin that, up close, look like mycelium.  Time will tell.  There is actually a second transfer, about the same size, on the same plate that brought over a lot of bacteria and I managed to introduce further bacteria, unintentionally of course.  

105305886_275178996885851_4946598814841614590_n.jpg

 

Another T1 plate off a different G1 plate than the above transfers.  The mycelium is trying but it is surrounded by bacteria.  I may try to clean it up just to see what happen.  The mycelium is growing up versus outward, I assume to try to find nutrients away from the bacteria.

blob.png
 

 

Plan B is looking good.  These were injected with the same syringe that had created the above plates.  Again, probably just a new guy not really know what he is doing decision but I made 5 pint jars and 1 half pint jar.  All look happy.  These three are the farthest alone.  I'm guessing two more weeks until some get moved into fruiting chamber.  From there I hope to get some spore prints and some clones.  

106247571_263648191630671_1014923545818394595_n.jpg


Edited by 2Ape2, 26 June 2020 - 09:53 AM.


#20 sandman

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 12:10 PM

None of the agar growth is good mushroom mycylium that will lead to a clean transfer, I'm really sorry to inform you that is all contamination. There is nothing there. Stop stop he's already dead :( 

 

I think the actual agar itself may be bacterial based on the look and the other jars that were shot. It has that really opaque and  kinda grainy look. Is that just the pics? It may have been incorrectly sterilized or gotten bacterial during the pour or cool down. Usually agar is very "crisp" and transparent. The entire plate even the uncolonized parts look grey and sad like a russian alley or something. 






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