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Panaeolus Questions


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#1 Akari

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Posted 14 July 2020 - 05:13 PM

So, I've been doing some extensive research on Pans. And I have a few questions. I hear they're harder to grow. Maybe I don't understand a few things. And for my notes... 
 
1. What exactly makes them harder to grow?
2. I couldn't find if there's a difference in incubation temp, is there one?
3. Can Pans be spawned on any grain like cubes?
4. In the fruiting chamber, what are the differences in perimeters?
5. And while we're at it. What exactly are the humidity perimeters for cubes? Do they vary strain to strain?


#2 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 11:09 AM

Hello Akari, I still have soon much to learn about Pans (and many other things). I can at least offer you my experience as a noob to Pans.

1. If you are a confident cube grower and have some agar ability, I don't think they are that much harder than cubes.

2. There is a difference because cubes seem to handle a wider range of temps. I think 78F is the sweet spot for Pans?

3. From experience, they can handle oat, barley, millet and grass seed, I'd imagine it could handle others?

4. I think this is the most difficult part for me. In my hot/dry environment, maintaining humidity while have good FAE and surface evaporation takes a little work.

5. Many cubes can fruit in vitro which has to be close to 100% humidity. Not sure the low end but you can squeak out some deformed mushies with pretty low humidity.

Give Pans a try, they aren't that much harder and beautiful little fruits to watch grow.

Good luck!
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#3 Akari

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 01:42 PM

Thanks for the info.


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#4 mushit

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 02:44 PM

Akari, search for Waylit's Pan Cyan Tek.

It is a great way to learn about Pans.


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#5 Akari

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 04:24 PM

That's actually the one I'm following.


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#6 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 04:39 PM

Peace Frog has some great grows too!

More great reading

https://mycotopia.ne...lus-cyanescens/

https://mycotopia.ne...58-joc-pan-tek/
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#7 Jrotten

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 07:07 PM

I find pans to contaminate much easier than cubes. I have tried to rush them repeatedly and they contaminate before fruiting every time.
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#8 Akari

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 06:30 PM

So...

You can knock up a jar of substrate?
 
Why can't you do this with cubes? Anybody know why?


#9 rockyfungus

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 10:15 PM

Are you asking if you can make a substrate like waylits for cubes and have them fruit all in one container?

 

My understanding of Pans is you need to do more agar work to find a faster colonizer.

I tried isolating from a MS, couldn't find vigorous enough growth. The few that took to grain didn't care for my dry climate.

I have some prints that I'm eager to check out, but need to dial in my humidity & evaporation.


Edited by rockyfungus, 01 August 2020 - 10:17 PM.


#10 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 10:23 PM

Most of my grows are knocked up quart jars of sub with a little grain mixed in, including cubes.

#11 rockyfungus

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Posted 01 August 2020 - 10:26 PM

Currently printing/cloning from baby jar grain and sub. Gives a few decent fruits, just playing around with 4 different locations/species right now.


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#12 Jrotten

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 12:04 AM

I’ve knocked up a jar of substrate+grain with a vendor syringe and 1/3 jars did produce but I use the word “produce” lightly. What is common is creating an LC using a clean live culture to inject STERILE sub+ grain. It can definitely be done for cubes as well, but I would need a reason to make the effort. Sterilizing sub bags takes 2-4 hours in the PC and requires an impulse sealer.

Pans are just more finicky. They have thinner myc, they won’t bore through a dense sub like a cube will, the subs are almost always going to be manure and straw which can be a little trickier to get hydrated properly, and pans are picky about water! Perfect cultures sometimes just seem to fizzle out for no reason more often than cubes.

What makes them more difficult is they are just less forgiving at each stage. At the same time they are FAST if everything else is dialed in. I’ll leave fruiting to someone with more experienced, but for me, I’ve found that getting to the FC is where the difficulty lies. I never followed a substrate recipe for a cube, I just ballparked it. After failing with pans repeatedly I broke out the scale and really took the time to build a sub and honestly it was a little surprising what that texture turned out to be compared to cubes where equal parts of coir, verm, and kow with the extra water squeezed out was all it took. The pan substrate is ~65% water by weight, but still very fluffy.

Last but not least cubes will fruit in a contaminated jar you forgot about for 3 months. Pans don’t want 100% RH, they want fresh air, evaporation from a thin casing, but the casing needs to stay wet and the pins don’t like being misted.

Pans are like a high maintenace girlfriend. They may be better in every way except you may rather just spend Saturday night watching TV with a red headed cube in sweatpants if you don’t want to make the effort! LMFAO

Edited by Jrotten, 02 August 2020 - 12:08 AM.

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#13 Akari

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 11:50 AM

I’ve knocked up a jar of substrate+grain with a vendor syringe and 1/3 jars did produce but I use the word “produce” lightly. What is common is creating an LC using a clean live culture to inject STERILE sub+ grain. It can definitely be done for cubes as well, but I would need a reason to make the effort. Sterilizing sub bags takes 2-4 hours in the PC and requires an impulse sealer.

Pans are just more finicky. They have thinner myc, they won’t bore through a dense sub like a cube will, the subs are almost always going to be manure and straw which can be a little trickier to get hydrated properly, and pans are picky about water! Perfect cultures sometimes just seem to fizzle out for no reason more often than cubes.

What makes them more difficult is they are just less forgiving at each stage. At the same time they are FAST if everything else is dialed in. I’ll leave fruiting to someone with more experienced, but for me, I’ve found that getting to the FC is where the difficulty lies. I never followed a substrate recipe for a cube, I just ballparked it. After failing with pans repeatedly I broke out the scale and really took the time to build a sub and honestly it was a little surprising what that texture turned out to be compared to cubes where equal parts of coir, verm, and kow with the extra water squeezed out was all it took. The pan substrate is ~65% water by weight, but still very fluffy.

Last but not least cubes will fruit in a contaminated jar you forgot about for 3 months. Pans don’t want 100% RH, they want fresh air, evaporation from a thin casing, but the casing needs to stay wet and the pins don’t like being misted.

Pans are like a high maintenace girlfriend. They may be better in every way except you may rather just spend Saturday night watching TV with a red headed cube in sweatpants if you don’t want to make the effort! LMFAO

I found this very helpful.

 

I wanna do it.

 

So, it sounds llike the jars thing is wack. So I should do a bulk substrate?


Edited by Akari, 02 August 2020 - 11:53 AM.


#14 Alpoehi

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 12:27 PM

I did a MS inoculation in a jar. Took a while to grow but the whole jar colonized. Actually I did that to check a syringe I purchased. And furthermore, to ckeck a mixture of grains I composed.
I didn't expect anything and got good results.
So I made two more jars without inocucating them and mixed them with the inoculated one in a growbag. I will not use straw or manure on that grow.
Pans are easy to handle once the equillibrium is right.
It's my firsr grow of Pans and I don't expect anything from it. Just to share here.

#15 Jrotten

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 12:37 PM

I wouldn't say it's wack.  I would say it's a method that can work depending on your needs and abilities.  I was told to follow directions when I started with pans and I did not and the small nuances that make all the difference were lost on me because cubes are just more forgiving.  I would follow some directions.  I would offer these as good directions though there are others and I don't mean any disrespect to those growers at all.

 

https://mycotopia.ne...s-pan-cyan-tek/ this is old and trusted and a lot of people start here.  < jars

https://mycotopia.ne...lus-cyanescens/ I'm doing this with small modifications.  < bags

https://mycotopia.ne...58-joc-pan-tek/ next level from Dr Frankenstein using more traditional methods.

 

There's a lot of great grows from a lot of talented growers, but I think those 3 cover a lot of ground really well and I think I have them listed in a reasonable order starting from the most basic to the most advanced.


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#16 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 01:16 PM

Here is a pick of sub and grain in the same jar, it gets a shake after I add the agar. Ive used the same sub/grain mix on cube, pan, mexicana and caerulescens so far. Once the jar is colonized, it gets broken up and put in a 5 cup container. There it sits for a week then gets cased and put in FC. Now that I have clones, I can make LC and direct inject into 5 cup containers full of sterile sub/grains or bags of sterile sub w/some grains mixed in. Jars definitely have a purpose for me.

https://mycotopia.ne...60#entry1459799
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#17 Jrotten

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Posted 02 August 2020 - 04:27 PM

That is exactly how I did my spores to sub+grain but my grain was on top to speed germination. From there I did the same, shake, colonize, tray, recover, case and fruit.

It’s not far from what I’m doing now with bags and LC which I just put to trays yesterday. I would like to be able to direct inoculate the final container like Yoshi is describing.
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#18 PJammer24

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 12:52 PM

I find pans to contaminate much easier than cubes. I have tried to rush them repeatedly and they contaminate before fruiting every time.

you can attempt using a higher spawn ration if this continues to happen... More spawn = faster colonization... That and finding faster colonizing genetics would also help.


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#19 Jrotten

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 04:41 PM

 

I find pans to contaminate much easier than cubes. I have tried to rush them repeatedly and they contaminate before fruiting every time.

you can attempt using a higher spawn ration if this continues to happen... More spawn = faster colonization... That and finding faster colonizing genetics would also help.

Absolutely agree. What I have found to date with many failures to educate me:

1. Genetics are everything with pans. Until I got spores that would germinate on agar my pan growing was a crap shoot with loaded dice. Because they contaminate speed matters.

2. If you wonder “is that 100% colonized?" it’s not. Pan myc is wispy, but when it’s 100% it’s pretty obvious. 90% has failed every time and the reason I was trying to work with 90% is because my genetics and often my sub just weren’t worth a damn. Spawning heavy to save bad genetics just offered more grain to contaminate faster.

3. A heavy spawn rate with a weak slow culture won’t help. It can help environmental contamination issues because they move so incredibly fast, but if your problem is a weak and slow culture or a sub that’s just not right, especially too wet or too dense (usually they are the same thing) then it’s going to fail.

4. It’s faster to start with agar and find a fast healthy culture and transfer that than anything else you are reliably going to do as a new grower and probably an advanced one. Cubes you can go syringe>grain>bulk and it’s probably the fastest thing you can do from spore. It has not worked that way for me from vendor syringes with pans.

These pictures aren’t to show how good I am because I really suck with pans. I’m not an expert, but following Asura’s outline and paying attention to his and Jake’s sub recipes this is how fast things can go with pans

This bag is just straw, horse poo, and verm. It was inoculated via liquid culture 9 days ago.
The tray was crumbled and set to trays to recover yesterday.
The plate is a T1 exactly 7 days old and the germ plate was streaked 2-3 days before that from a print I took of my only successful little pan cambo (Sandoze) grow.

Any of these may go to shit, but I think it’s worthwhile to point out why it’s a better strategy to toss slow questionable things out when it comes to pans. They are just really very fast if you take the time to select for speed and health. I just can’t stress that about pans enough.

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Edited by Jrotten, 03 August 2020 - 05:00 PM.

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#20 rockyfungus

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 08:13 PM

So I got some pan cyans from a reputable vendor and spent a year isolating. It was always just this half-ass slow growing myc that never really colonized faster or a wider area of the agar. I'm going to have to dip into my wild coast pans.

The member I traded spores with made such nice packaging, that I'm reluctant to open it


Edited by rockyfungus, 03 August 2020 - 08:14 PM.





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