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Do B+ and/or GT prefer Black Cow Manure Casing Mix to? Some of my favorite times...


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#1 Redrock35

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Posted 14 July 2020 - 08:34 PM

 were creeping from cow patty to cow patty, thump thump pick... all the while avoiding a ansy farmer with a shotgun... so the story goes. We were enthusiasts catching waves in Flagler Bch and drinkin fresh brewed shroom tea.

Fast forward and now I'm a amateur fungi hobbyist here, and back 30 ought years ago, along with the guys I hunted for fresh dung to partake of nature's perfect answer to the universe and more. I usually couldn't wait to get them back to the house to wash em off, so I would carry a quart of water to "freshen them up" and start my trip out in the field. Back to the question though, I'm about to colonize my second bulk batch of Golden Teacher and what will be my first batch of B+ and I'm having trouble figuring out which of the two strains would most benefit from black cow manure casing mix that I already have on hand and need to use. So many notes but nothing on dung substrate by strain. Any help at all would make my day.



#2 HrVanker

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Posted 14 July 2020 - 10:44 PM

When I first started researching the hobby, I recall some spore places mentioning that the original specimen was found on dung, grass, compost, etc. Slyly indicating the type of medium in which they grow best.

Now, the prevailing idea seems to be: "a cube[ensis] is a cub[ensis]." They are all very similar, grow about the same in similar environments, and have similar ranges of potency.

Casing layers typically don't contain manure in my experience. They are usually coir/verm mixes to retain moisture and provide a barrier between the outside world and the nutrient rich substrate. They also aren't required, but they do serve a purpose.

If you want to use black kow, just add it to your sub. I recently used a 1:1:1 mix of verm:coir:black kow, and pulled 36g dry from the first flush. It's not a massive haul, but I'm not complaining. I would look into Damions Tek for pasteurization

#3 Redrock35

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 09:15 AM

Thanks for the info, I now think that it would work well for either, but I would stil like to know which strain would benefit most from manure. This is what it contains, 5 pound bag of our new Black Cow Manure Casing comes fully hydrated, vacuum sealed and includes the following:
Organic grain fed ultra composted bovine (cow) manure
Coir (Coco Coir brand)
Vermiculite
Spring water
PH stabilizers/buffers including Gypsum, hydrated lime
Special mineral blend (Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium Bicarbonate

Verses

A combination of Coco Coir, Vermiculite, Hydrated Lime, Gypsum, ph buffers, ph stabilizers, mineral water and a few other choice ingredients

Curiosity has got me, I would go nuts if I jam this up

When I first started researching the hobby, I recall some spore places mentioning that the original specimen was found on dung, grass, compost, etc. Slyly indicating the type of medium in which they grow best.
Now, the prevailing idea seems to be: "a cube[ensis] is a cub[ensis]." They are all very similar, grow about the same in similar environments, and have similar ranges of potency.
Casing layers typically don't contain manure in my experience. They are usually coir/verm mixes to retain moisture and provide a barrier between the outside world and the nutrient rich substrate. They also aren't required, but they do serve a purpose.
If you want to use black kow, just add it to your sub. I recently used a 1:1:1 mix of verm:coir:black kow, and pulled 36g dry from the first flush. It's not a massive haul, but I'm not complaining. I would look into Damions Tek for pasteurization



#4 PJammer24

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 09:34 AM

I prefer to use non-nutritious mixes if I am going to do  a casing...

 

By casing do you mean substrate? Using manure in your mix will be beneficial for any cube. Black cow can get a little muddy. You many want to increase the amount of coir or straw you are using slightly and/or the amount of vermiculite in the mix...

 

By adding a black cow based casing layer, you are really just adding an addiitional layer of substrate to the top. The myc is going to colonize it similarly to any other substrate. If you are trying to use a casing layer, you can use verm on its own, coir/verm potentially, or peat with a little bit of oyster shell (gyp may be adequate)... You don't want the casing layer to be a nutrient source. It is used to maintain a stable micro-climate that promotes pinning... If you use the manure compost in your casing, it will just be colonized in the same manner as everything else...

 

I almost never use a casing layer with cubes when doing bulk substrates. I have added one when running PE in an attempt to avoid mutant blobs, but even then I did not see significantly different results.... There may have actually been fewer blobs in the ones I did without the casing layer... I think the blobs with PE are caused by either too much water in the substrate or by it being overly nutritious. This theory is based on the differences between my subs that returned fewer blobs and the ones that were blob central... I used less verm and less hpoo in the ones that performed best,...


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#5 Redrock35

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Posted 15 July 2020 - 09:47 PM

I prefer to use non-nutritious mixes if I am going to do  a casing...

 

By casing do you mean substrate? Using manure in your mix will be beneficial for any cube. Black cow can get a little muddy. You many want to increase the amount of coir or straw you are using slightly and/or the amount of vermiculite in the mix...

 

By adding a black cow based casing layer, you are really just adding an addiitional layer of substrate to the top. The myc is going to colonize it similarly to any other substrate. If you are trying to use a casing layer, you can use verm on its own, coir/verm potentially, or peat with a little bit of oyster shell (gyp may be adequate)... You don't want the casing layer to be a nutrient source. It is used to maintain a stable micro-climate that promotes pinning... If you use the manure compost in your casing, it will just be colonized in the same manner as everything else...

 

I almost never use a casing layer with cubes when doing bulk substrates. I have added one when running PE in an attempt to avoid mutant blobs, but even then I did not see significantly different results.... There may have actually been fewer blobs in the ones I did without the casing layer... I think the blobs with PE are caused by either too much water in the substrate or by it being overly nutritious. This theory is based on the differences between my subs that returned fewer blobs and the ones that were blob central... I used less verm and less hpoo in the ones that performed best,...

Thanks for that info, I did a little more digging around and see that it is also used to "supersize" bulk grows but it's more susceptible to mold. I'm guessing there are other drawbacks, does the "supersizing" really make that big of a difference in the size of the harvest vs the chance of crapping out with a serious mold outbreak for a novice like myself? What the biggest single threat to mold breakouts? 

 

So if I'm using a vacuum packed non-nutritious pre-made casing mix as my substrate, the use of a vacuum packed nutritious pre-made casing mix should only be used as a additional layer on top, without making the top layer(s) thicker than usual? 

When you say you almost never use a casing layer with cubes, I think I may misunderstand the difference between casing and substrate.

 Is it odd that I've learnt most of what's allowed me to have a several successes from the grow kit company I have bought all of my supplies from? And is it stranger still that I've started to learn what will allow me to continue to have successes starting here as a new member. Especially with the goodwill that I've been met with, I really appreciate everyone passing on their skills and knowledge... above all, thank you for your patience. PS that blobing thing that you spoke about, I thought it was something I did that caused my APE to do that, but now I feel a bit better knowing it happens to everyone and I didnt just screw it up. I must say though, out of all my successes, none were particularly potent, 9gms of air dried powdered GT barely did what 4gms did when I was 20 something in a cow field. Bad spores? Can growth methods change that?



#6 Redrock35

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 07:48 AM

Quote: PJammer24

I almost never use a casing layer with cubes when doing bulk substrates. I have added one when running PE in an attempt to avoid mutant blobs, but even then I did not see significantly different results.... There may have actually been fewer blobs in the ones I did without the casing layer... I think the blobs with PE are caused by either too much water in the substrate or by it being overly nutritious. This theory is based on the differences between my subs that returned fewer blobs and the ones that were blob central

I had the same thing happen, likely at a smaller magnitude .

#7 ElPirana

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 08:36 AM

It does seem like there may be some confusion in the vocabulary being used. Substrate is the base material that the mycelium is growing into, which includes nutrients. This would commonly include a grain spawn mixed into coco coir, composted manure, etc. The casing is a thin layer of non-nutritious material that is used to cover the fully colonized substrate to provide moisture and assist in fruiting. Casings are often made from peat, vermiculite, and sometimes other supplements.

The replies you’ve received here are right, use the manure in the substrate but not in the casing layer.
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#8 PJammer24

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 10:40 AM

 

I prefer to use non-nutritious mixes if I am going to do  a casing...

 

By casing do you mean substrate? Using manure in your mix will be beneficial for any cube. Black cow can get a little muddy. You many want to increase the amount of coir or straw you are using slightly and/or the amount of vermiculite in the mix...

 

By adding a black cow based casing layer, you are really just adding an addiitional layer of substrate to the top. The myc is going to colonize it similarly to any other substrate. If you are trying to use a casing layer, you can use verm on its own, coir/verm potentially, or peat with a little bit of oyster shell (gyp may be adequate)... You don't want the casing layer to be a nutrient source. It is used to maintain a stable micro-climate that promotes pinning... If you use the manure compost in your casing, it will just be colonized in the same manner as everything else...

 

I almost never use a casing layer with cubes when doing bulk substrates. I have added one when running PE in an attempt to avoid mutant blobs, but even then I did not see significantly different results.... There may have actually been fewer blobs in the ones I did without the casing layer... I think the blobs with PE are caused by either too much water in the substrate or by it being overly nutritious. This theory is based on the differences between my subs that returned fewer blobs and the ones that were blob central... I used less verm and less hpoo in the ones that performed best,...

Thanks for that info, I did a little more digging around and see that it is also used to "supersize" bulk grows but it's more susceptible to mold. I'm guessing there are other drawbacks, does the "supersizing" really make that big of a difference in the size of the harvest vs the chance of crapping out with a serious mold outbreak for a novice like myself? What the biggest single threat to mold breakouts? 

 

So if I'm using a vacuum packed non-nutritious pre-made casing mix as my substrate, the use of a vacuum packed nutritious pre-made casing mix should only be used as a additional layer on top, without making the top layer(s) thicker than usual? 

When you say you almost never use a casing layer with cubes, I think I may misunderstand the difference between casing and substrate.

 Is it odd that I've learnt most of what's allowed me to have a several successes from the grow kit company I have bought all of my supplies from? And is it stranger still that I've started to learn what will allow me to continue to have successes starting here as a new member. Especially with the goodwill that I've been met with, I really appreciate everyone passing on their skills and knowledge... above all, thank you for your patience. PS that blobing thing that you spoke about, I thought it was something I did that caused my APE to do that, but now I feel a bit better knowing it happens to everyone and I didnt just screw it up. I must say though, out of all my successes, none were particularly potent, 9gms of air dried powdered GT barely did what 4gms did when I was 20 something in a cow field. Bad spores? Can growth methods change that?

 

You should be mixing your spawn with a nutritious substrate. It makes no sense to have a non-nutritious substrate but a nutritious casing layer. The previous comment explains the difference between casing and substrate. You will get better results using a nutritious substrate and a non-nutritious casing layer than vice-versa...

 

Do a little bit of reading on the differences between substrate and casing layer. It seems you don't fully grasp the differences as of yet.

 

When you are using bulk substrate for cubensis, casing layers are not typically needed... When you are growing directly from grain, you will want it to be cased since the grain does not adequately hold water... Cased grain methods are pretty old school and you don't see people doing this often these days due to there being more reliable methods. If you are trying to "supersize" your grow, I would using more spawn in your mix opposed to trying to add nutrients with the casing layer or making your substrate more nutritious. Using more substrate will allow you to have enough nutrition for later flushes but won't do much to increase fruit size or yield per flush. If you are looking to get more yield from your space, you will have better luck having new bags/tubs/etc... ready to replace the old ones after 2-3 flushes rather than trying to maximize each individual bag/tub/etc...


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#9 Redrock35

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 11:23 AM

Quote: PJammer24

I almost never use a casing layer with cubes when doing bulk substrates. I have added one when running PE in an attempt to avoid mutant blobs, but even then I did not see significantly different results.... There may have actually been fewer blobs in the ones I did without the casing layer... I think the blobs with PE are caused by either too much water in the substrate or by it being overly nutritious. This theory is based on the differences between my subs that returned fewer blobs and the ones that were blob central

I had the same thing happen, likely at a smaller magnitude .

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#10 PJammer24

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 11:50 AM

Quote: PJammer24

I almost never use a casing layer with cubes when doing bulk substrates. I have added one when running PE in an attempt to avoid mutant blobs, but even then I did not see significantly different results.... There may have actually been fewer blobs in the ones I did without the casing layer... I think the blobs with PE are caused by either too much water in the substrate or by it being overly nutritious. This theory is based on the differences between my subs that returned fewer blobs and the ones that were blob central

I had the same thing happen, likely at a smaller magnitude .

Those are PF tek opposed to bulk substrate. I am not a PF guru, however, the vermiculite you roll the cakes in is a casing layer. You will want to do a casing layer any time you are using PF tek... The brown rice flower is essentially just a powdered grain so it is similar to growing in a cased grain method which requires the use of a casing layer for acceptable results. Bulk subtrates, when you mix a jar of grain spawn with a semi-nutritious substrate (ie. hpoo/coir/verm; straw; hpoo/straw/verm; etc...) a casing layer is not needed. The substrate provides adequate water content and helps to maintain adequate humidity at the substrates surface to promote fruiting... Growing with PF tek is a different beast entirely than what I have been discussing and from my understanding will almost always give you better results when applying a casing layer of verm than if you exclude the verm all together.


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#11 Redrock35

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 10:09 PM

Ok, I was a bit confused there for a minute, but I'm back on the right page again. I had picked out a pre-made black cow manure casing came fully hydrated, vacuum sealed, [/font][/color]organic grain fed ultra composted cow manure, coir, vermiculite, spring water, PH stabilizers/buffers including gypsum, hydrated lime with a mineral blend (Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium Bicarbonate) to start one of my upcoming bulk grow. Now I'm not so sure why I did other than reminiscing from when I first discovered fungi in a cow pasture. I've been watching tube videos on making my own casing mix and finally understand the difference between casing and substrate.(it's a wonder that I had successes without being completely sure in the first place) Although my first go at a bulk grow went incredibly well, it was likely because I followed the included directions to somewhat of a degree. Thanks again for you help, I have a little better understanding of what I doing now. I'm thinking maybe buying poured agar was a little too advanced and optimistic at this point though.

Quote: PJammer24

I almost never use a casing layer with cubes when doing bulk substrates. I have added one when running PE in an attempt to avoid mutant blobs, but even then I did not see significantly different results.... There may have actually been fewer blobs in the ones I did without the casing layer... I think the blobs with PE are caused by either too much water in the substrate or by it being overly nutritious. This theory is based on the differences between my subs that returned fewer blobs and the ones that were blob central

I had the same thing happen, likely at a smaller magnitude .

Those are PF tek opposed to bulk substrate. I am not a PF guru, however, the vermiculite you roll the cakes in is a casing layer. You will want to do a casing layer any time you are using PF tek... The brown rice flower is essentially just a powdered grain so it is similar to growing in a cased grain method which requires the use of a casing layer for acceptable results. Bulk subtrates, when you mix a jar of grain spawn with a semi-nutritious substrate (ie. hpoo/coir/verm; straw; hpoo/straw/verm; etc...) a casing layer is not needed. The substrate provides adequate water content and helps to maintain adequate humidity at the substrates surface to promote fruiting... Growing with PF tek is a different beast entirely than what I have been discussing and from my understanding will almost always give you better results when applying a casing layer of verm than if you exclude the verm all together.


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Edited by Redrock35, 17 July 2020 - 01:21 AM.


#12 FunG

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 08:24 AM

It does seem like there may be some confusion in the vocabulary being used. Substrate is the base material that the mycelium is growing into, which includes nutrients. This would commonly include a grain spawn mixed into coco coir, composted manure, etc. The casing is a thin layer of non-nutritious material that is used to cover the fully colonized substrate to provide moisture and assist in fruiting. Casings are often made from peat, vermiculite, and sometimes other supplements.

The replies you’ve received here are right, use the manure in the substrate but not in the casing layer.


I didnt read the last bit but elpirana unscrewed the primary issue you were having by explaining the difference to you. Bulk material is cowmanure/straw/verm/coir added benefits are the gypsum (gypsum improves yields as well acts as a ph buffer) but anyways

Your original question, do b+ pr gt do better on which substrate....

P.cubensis do best on horse manure although elephant manure (where obtainable) is the superior or the manures...so unless you can hit up a circus (which shouldn't be housing elephants cause that's crual and inhumain) but unless you can do that then you're only option is to order it.....that's if you want the premo shit
Pun intended har har

Otherwise find a horse or someone with horses and go dig up the white gold.....nothing other then elephant dung can compete with a p.cubensis grown off horse manure that be b+, gt, gwm, sa, Texas, pe etc et..


The only reason I use coir for my grows is because it's less of a (ew) thing if someone were to think they ate a mushroom grown off horse manure then when they find out ita grown off coir the mushrooms become popular again

I call it marketing tactics but that's illegal and FunG enjoys his time here so that's exactly what I'm not doing!
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#13 Redrock35

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 09:10 AM

Thanks for that, maybe I should of asked the question a bit more to the point, but I was worried to mention brand names and the fact that I have 35 pounds of pre-mixed casing, which come in 5 lb bags. Two of which are Mid*est's Black Cow Manure Casing Mix - 5 lbs, the other Five are Midw*st's Select Bulk Casing Mix - 5 pounds and I need to use every bit of it for the amount of colonized substrate that is ready to go. I need 10lbs for the B+ and 25lb for the Golden Teacher.So naturally I thought 10lbs of black cow manure mix would be convenient for the B+ but was trying to assess any risk or problems with using a manure mix that I wasn't aware of that would potentially ruin my grow. If I have overstepped with the brand name, please make me aware and I will fix it. Should I wait for more to be casing delivered or is the risk low enough to use what I got?

 

It does seem like there may be some confusion in the vocabulary being used. Substrate is the base material that the mycelium is growing into, which includes nutrients. This would commonly include a grain spawn mixed into coco coir, composted manure, etc. The casing is a thin layer of non-nutritious material that is used to cover the fully colonized substrate to provide moisture and assist in fruiting. Casings are often made from peat, vermiculite, and sometimes other supplements.

The replies you’ve received here are right, use the manure in the substrate but not in the casing layer.


I didnt read the last bit but elpirana unscrewed the primary issue you were having by explaining the difference to you. Bulk material is cowmanure/straw/verm/coir added benefits are the gypsum (gypsum improves yields as well acts as a ph buffer) but anyways

Your original question, do b+ pr gt do better on which substrate....

P.cubensis do best on horse manure although elephant manure (where obtainable) is the superior or the manures...so unless you can hit up a circus (which shouldn't be housing elephants cause that's crual and inhumain) but unless you can do that then you're only option is to order it.....that's if you want the premo shit
Pun intended har har

Otherwise find a horse or someone with horses and go dig up the white gold.....nothing other then elephant dung can compete with a p.cubensis grown off horse manure that be b+, gt, gwm, sa, Texas, pe etc et..


The only reason I use coir for my grows is because it's less of a (ew) thing if someone were to think they ate a mushroom grown off horse manure then when they find out ita grown off coir the mushrooms become popular again

I call it marketing tactics but that's illegal and FunG enjoys his time here so that's exactly what I'm not doing!

 



#14 FunG

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Posted 17 July 2020 - 09:55 AM

I'm not to sure how it works when spawning by weight rather then ratio.

I use ratios, my weight formula is all but forgotten but I'm sure another residential know it all will fill in the blanks for me.

But if I had to guess

We would need to know how much spawn weight you have....if they're only 3pound bags (one of each) then 25lbs is a very low ratio to be spawning at...

Just give us the weight of the substrate bags (your spawn) not the bulk substrate.

And someone (probably not me) will calculate out how much bulk casing to use with the amount of spawn available to you.

#15 FunG

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Posted 18 July 2020 - 06:25 AM

Why did I call it bulk casing?

Sorry to clear up the confusion I ment to say "bulk material" I cant edit the previous post.

#16 Redrock35

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Posted 18 July 2020 - 10:45 AM

I'm not to sure how it works when spawning by weight rather then ratio.

I use ratios, my weight formula is all but forgotten but I'm sure another residential know it all will fill in the blanks for me.

But if I had to guess

We would need to know how much spawn weight you have....if they're only 3pound bags (one of each) then 25lbs is a very low ratio to be spawning at...

Just give us the weight of the substrate bags (your spawn) not the bulk substrate.

And someone (probably not me) will calculate out how much bulk casing to use with the amount of spawn available to you.

I have the calculations down, no problem, my question is should I use the Black Cow Manure Casing "bulk material"comes fully hydrated, vacuum sealed and includes the following:

Organic grain fed ultra composted bovine (cow) manure
Coir (Coco Coir brand)
Vermiculite
Spring water
PH stabilizers/buffers including Gypsum, hydrated lime
Special mineral blend (Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium Bicarbonate
 
 That I have On Hand
 
Or
 
The exact same thing minus the manure?
 
 the fact that I have 35 pounds of pre-mixed casing, which come in 5 lb bags. Two of which are Mid*est's Black Cow Manure Casing Mix - 5 lbs, the other Five are Midw*st's Select Bulk Casing Mix - 5 pounds and I need to use every bit of it for the amount of colonized substrate that is ready to go.


#17 Mycol

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Posted 18 July 2020 - 11:01 AM

Minus the manure .

Casings shouldn’t have much nutrient value to them . Manure has nutrients so omit manure .
Personally my casing is 1 quart coarse verm, 2 quarts seed starter mix, and 2 cups crushed oyster shells . I saw a significant improvement when I incorporated oyster shells .

Mix those ingredients well
Add water to field capacity or SLIGHTLY under and PC for 90 minutes.
Let cool overnight
Apply the casing about 1/4 inch over your colonized sub .

Also I sift my verm so the fine particles get left out .
i think (my opinion) it would stifle air flow to the sub which is critical .

Edited by Mycol, 18 July 2020 - 12:02 PM.

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#18 Redrock35

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Posted 18 July 2020 - 11:16 AM

Minus the manure .

Casings shouldn’t have much nutrient value to them . Manure has nutrients so omit manure .
Personally my casing is 1 quart coarse verm, 2 quarts seed starter mix, and 2 cups crushed oyster shells . I saw a significant improvement when I incorporated oyster shells .

Mix those ingredients well
Add water to field capacity or SLIGHTLY under and PC for 90 minutes.

Seed starter mix, what is that exactly?



#19 Mycol

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Posted 18 July 2020 - 12:06 PM

Jiffy makes it . But it’s made from peat moss, and verm and some ph adjusters in it . You can find it at any hardware store or garden center or online .

You can make a casing from scratch with peat verm lime and oyster shells too . The seed starter is just a little shortcut .

I’ve seen people case with just coarse verm that has water added to it too but I’ve never done that .
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#20 PJammer24

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Posted 19 July 2020 - 09:13 AM

The biggest benefit, from my perspective, of adding PH buffers like oyster shells is that it helps to stave of contamination... Our lovelies like to grow in a neutral environment when acidity is considered.. Them most common anaerobic competitors prefer acidic substrates... As your mycelium breaks down the nutrients in the substrate, the substrate gradually becomes more acidic.. By adding the oyster shells as  a PH  buffer, the substrate will remain more alkaline over a longer period of time, allowing your minions to do their thing!


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