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What the hell is going on with my tubs!?!?!?!?


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#61 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 September 2020 - 10:19 AM

I've had substrates that lacked a casing layer that ended up with a surface that was completely covered in a layer of impervious mycelium that took on a smooth, almost glossy appearance (which coincided with it no longer absorbing water). It seemed to be caused in most cases by over-incubation, and was fixed by scratching. The scratching often resulted in a very dense full canopy flush.

 

Do we call that "overlay" or something else, since there was often no casing layer? If it's overlay then I used to get it fairly often until I got better at growing, which involved better management of timing with regards to introducing fruiting conditions (and sometimes it would happen as a result of accidentally letting it dry out too much).


Edited by TVCasualty, 09 September 2020 - 10:20 AM.


#62 PJammer24

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Posted 09 September 2020 - 11:06 AM

i am starting to adapt my perspective slightly on this overlay issue... I did say that I was done commenting on it because I have been getting annoyed but now that someone has started a proper discussion, I am intrigued.

 

I don't know that I have ever seen overlay with cubes... But as TV touches on above, how are we defining overlay? I have seen what I believe was thicker myc due to genetics while using multi-spore... I attribute it to genetics since in the same conditions, I have not seen clones do the same. If genetically driven myc thickening is considered overlay than I need to rethink things... To me, overlay is a condition that troubles casing layers with strains that require them... Casing layers with cubes just become an extension of the substrate in many cases... Adding a casing layer of coir to a coir substrate is just more substrate in my mind.

 

It is exceedingly rare in my experience with cubes, at least when proper growth parameters are being maintained. I am not 100% sure maintaining vegetative growth parameters beyond what is prudent will not produce overlay or an "overlay like" scenario. Cubes don't require incubation if room temperature is maintained around 70f... No incubation is required...

 

I don't incubate, it opens the door to more problems than its worth... Apparently overlay may be one of them. Under normal/acceptable conditions, I don't know cubes to overlay. I also don't know cubes to stay in a vegetative state readily... In my experience, when the myc has colonized the available nutrient source, it fruits! Nearly all of my projects experience the same conditions from day1 until their last day where temperature and also light are concerned...

 

I have also seen people who have forgotten  about projects in a dark closet or under a bed only to find that it has fruited heavily when removed... Despite being in the dark... "fruiting conditions" is a term that can be misused just as easily as "overlay"...


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#63 FunG

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Posted 09 September 2020 - 12:40 PM

That appears to be the exact same growth that alphoehi and I were experiencing a little more severe then mine too...

I would have done a deep scratch to remove the surface mycelium that's dense and dormant and wished for the best.... I call the condition overlay but maybe others have never even seen it first hand.

If the conditions are not kept within a certain parameter p.cubensis will behave strangely and I know for a fact that having the r.h to high or to low as well as the temperatures being to high or low will cause p.cubensis to overlay. I've done over 100 small scale grows and have seen shit that most cultivators would develop instant PTSD from. I've never seen vert but alot of molds/bacteria/viruses and overlay as a result of mycelium either being deprived its growth parameters or by fighting off a competing organism. Those are things that cause it.

Vert also is only known to effect one known species of mushrooms and speculation on a handful of others...p.cubensis are not listed as a known species effected and that's what I knew the entire time I thought it had vert cause that's what everyone was saying....

The simple fact that the condition that I'm just out right claiming to be overlay exhibited the exact same characteristics of overlay outlined by pjammer in his posting so if it's not overlay and it's not anything I've seen before what do we want to label it?

Thick dense, water clogged, non fruiting mycelium...? Why not just accept it for what it is?

#64 Nicked

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Posted 09 September 2020 - 02:13 PM

So my NSS strain is a weird one. It consistently produces the same type of growth regardless if it's T4 from MS on agar or from a clone.
The mono in the Pic above I put a casing layer on shortly after the Pic was taken and once that casing was about 100% with the same marshmallowy type mycelium it pinned and gave out some pretty mushrooms but a very average flush. I can't really nail it down to conditions because as I had done last time I grew this strain out I had GT (and Texans this time round too) that exhibited completely normal colonization and fruiting and gave me great first flushes with absolutely no tomentose type growth. Pics of the side by side tubs below..

I am finding this discussion rather interesting and am wondering what I could do differently to try and retain the aggressive properties of the strain whilst not having the 'overlay' issues I'm experiencing... The fruits from this strain are rather pretty and potent too so am quite keen to cultivate it better (not trying to hijack your thread here FunG.. If you want I'd be happy to start my own one up)
5cb591778597ebe5ea10062f802a12ac.jpg15f5f0b63c1bc970bcabf8aa53789cec.jpgbb8d9362333896e6b6a4076b8cdcb4e5.jpg
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#65 PJammer24

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Posted 09 September 2020 - 03:30 PM

That appears to be the exact same growth that alphoehi and I were experiencing a little more severe then mine too...

I would have done a deep scratch to remove the surface mycelium that's dense and dormant and wished for the best.... I call the condition overlay but maybe others have never even seen it first hand.

If the conditions are not kept within a certain parameter p.cubensis will behave strangely and I know for a fact that having the r.h to high or to low as well as the temperatures being to high or low will cause p.cubensis to overlay. I've done over 100 small scale grows and have seen shit that most cultivators would develop instant PTSD from. I've never seen vert but alot of molds/bacteria/viruses and overlay as a result of mycelium either being deprived its growth parameters or by fighting off a competing organism. Those are things that cause it.

Vert also is only known to effect one known species of mushrooms and speculation on a handful of others...p.cubensis are not listed as a known species effected and that's what I knew the entire time I thought it had vert cause that's what everyone was saying....

The simple fact that the condition that I'm just out right claiming to be overlay exhibited the exact same characteristics of overlay outlined by pjammer in his posting so if it's not overlay and it's not anything I've seen before what do we want to label it?

Thick dense, water clogged, non fruiting mycelium...? Why not just accept it for what it is?

100 grows... wow, Impressive...

 

Why not accept it for what it is? Because more often then not, that isn't what it is. You throw the term around like it is common and it is not. You have claimed to have it in spawn jars and that simply is not a thing... One of the reasons people come to Topia rather than other sites is because it is easier to learn here and an effort is made to provide on point information, sound advice and insightful discussion. Repeatedly posting that you have overlay in multiple projects and in different stages will lead people to believe that they should be looking out for this when it shouldn't be much of a concern.

 

Certain genetic combinations will produce thicker mycelium. That doesn't necessarily mean it isn't going to fruit. Beginners will read these posts, have thick mycelium, and think they need to be running to the kitchen for a fork... It does not happen very often at all... I have seen some examples of that 1% but most of the time when I have seen people say they are suffering from overlay, what they are really suffering from is impatience and ignorance.

 

I have seen VERY thick mycelium fruit perfectly fine... Full colonization, consolidation, and a general thickening does not necessarily mean it is not going to fruit or that it can't absorb water, and that you have to go get a fork and sit down for a siesta scratch session...

 

With species that experience overlay, it can be avoided by maintaining proper atmospheric conditions. When cubes experience a thickening of the mycelium, i believe it to be most often genetic and unavoidable. That is the difference as I see it. Cubes are pretty forgiving and will fruit in a wide spectrum of conditions... With the atmospheric conditions playing such a small role where general fruiting is concerned, they do not typically get stuck in a vegetative state beyond what is necessary to colonize the available nutrient source. Once fully colonized, they fruit... 99% of the time, even if you are providing conditions favorable to vegetative growth, they will begin to fruit rather than overlay... For this reason, overlay doesn't really happen with cubes.  This is why I chalk mycelial mat type growth to genetics...

 

With strains that readily experience overlay, it can be avoided by adjusting conditions properly. If cubes are experiencing something similar and it is genetic, then it can not be avoided by adjusting conditions properly... It is a distinct difference in my mind.


Edited by PJammer24, 09 September 2020 - 03:56 PM.


#66 FunG

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 08:32 AM

Pjammer I've said right from the start that my conditions or growth parameters were wrong for every tub I had to discard.

The temps were to high

Like I said, probably above 90f and at times exceeding 100f....that and I tryed cutting a corner by not squeeze drying my bulk material after it was hot water bathed so it was over saturated (no pooling water) and knowing that with alphoehi's picture that was chalked up to excess water it would be very wise to think that the two problems play a role in development of overlay...

But it was in fact overlayed, it's not common but atleast people know that if it happens they can attempt to remove the water clogged dense mycelium with a sterilized fork and allow for recovery and still get a flush.

If I didnt scratch it with a sterilized fork it would have ended up like the tubs I threw out, just thick dormant mycelium that turns yellow after sitting there long enough.

I kept saying my environmental conditions were unfavorable for p.cubensis in just about every post I made too, so of someone new does read this then hopefully they understand that, if they get confused well fack me.....I'm typing in pretty plain english.

And no worries nicked, this is a perfect thread to discuss overlay in i just wish i had entitled the thread that but at the time I only speculated it was overlay then midway threw I knew for sure but also thought it could be vert, defiantly not vert. That's the primary thing here cause it eliminates it from the list of possibilities but I keep saying it that the overlay conditions pjammer outlined is exactly what was going on with my tubs.




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