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PF Jars/Monotub: timing question


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#1 Robinsparrow

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 08:17 AM

I'm working on my 3rd attempt at growing Albino A+ spores using the PF tek and then transferring to Monotub with Coco Coir substrate. Right now, I have 10 jars that have been incubating about 3 weeks at 70-80 degrees and they are all at different colonization points: 1 jar has been fully colonized for a few days, 4 about 3/4, 1 about 1/2, 2 just started, and 1: 0! There's no sign of contamination. What do I do with these babies? My instructions say I need 6-7 jars per fruiting chamber.

Any advice for me?



#2 FunG

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 09:24 AM

From my experience using cakes as spawn always sucked, I did unproven tests using ms but the results were on average with the final yield whether it was cakes fruited as cakes or cakes spawned to a substrate. They still produced the same final weight or close to it.

Something is wrong with the jars that have no active mycelium and maybe something is up with the ones with slower growth....or it could be that you didnt sparse out the spore solution evenly enough.

Cakes have a low spawn ratio something like 1:2 so per each 250ml cake you could spawn to 500ml coco coir but finally shredded you could go higher just dont expect amazing results like I previously mentioned.
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#3 PJammer24

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 09:54 AM

If you intend to use these jars as spawn rather than fruiting directly from the cake, here is what I would do...

 

I would take the jars that appear to be fully colonized, I would give them an extra week to make sure the interior has colonized since often it is the last section to do so...

 

After waiting that week, I would put the fully colonized jars in the fridge until the others have caught up. Putting them in the fridge will stall growth while the others finish colonizing. When the last jar has colonized, you can pull the others out of the fridge and use them...

 

With your coco coir... You don't need to pasteurize as thoroughly because there is limited additional nutrients in the coir. I would just do a bucket tek or use a cooler to pasteurize with boiling water...

1. Put coir in a pillow case that is porous, like jersey knit... I use mesh laundry bags that you can pick up at Wallyworld for under $3.

2. Put the bag of a coir in a bucket or cooler.

3. Pour boiling water over the bag of coir.

4. Cover the cooler or bucket so the heat is retained as long as possible.

5. Let the bag of coir sit in the water until cooled.

6. Pour off the water and hang the bag to let it drain. I let mine drain 10-12 hours, usually over night.

7. After draining, the coir should be at field capacity and ready to mix with your spawn.


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#4 PJammer24

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 11:27 AM

From my experience using cakes as spawn always sucked, I did unproven tests using ms but the results were on average with the final yield whether it was cakes fruited as cakes or cakes spawned to a substrate. They still produced the same final weight or close to it.

Something is wrong with the jars that have no active mycelium and maybe something is up with the ones with slower growth....or it could be that you didnt sparse out the spore solution evenly enough.

Cakes have a low spawn ratio something like 1:2 so per each 250ml cake you could spawn to 500ml coco coir but finally shredded you could go higher just dont expect amazing results like I previously mentioned.

The reason one jar colonizes more quickly than another from MS is typically genetic. You could put a million spores in one jar and two spores in another and if those two spores result in more aggressive genetics, it will colonize more quickly... The odds of getting aggressive genetics may be increased with more spores but is certainly not a given.

 

PF tek is notorious for slow colonization. 3 weeks is not long enough for me to start suspecting something is wrong as you have suggested.


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#5 Robinsparrow

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 01:18 PM

Thanks so much for the explicit instructions, PJammer24! This was exactly what I needed.



#6 happytimes

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 05:57 AM

I'm having the same problem with my jars. 2 appear to be nearly done and the other 4 are all different. It's been 3 weeks. I obviously have no patience. They just don't appear to be growing. There must be a way to speed up the process? Total newbee question, but what if you let the base of the jars sit in warm water? I have one of those
Sous Vide Cookers. What's the ideal temperature for GT spores mixed in Vermiculite, water & Brown rice flower?
I was also contemplating burning the needle, waiting for it to cool and then giving the contents a stir through the holes in the lid. Would this help?

#7 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 08:58 AM

I'm having the same problem with my jars. 2 appear to be nearly done and the other 4 are all different. It's been 3 weeks. I obviously have no patience. They just don't appear to be growing. There must be a way to speed up the process? Total newbee question, but what if you let the base of the jars sit in warm water? I have one of those
Sous Vide Cookers. What's the ideal temperature for GT spores mixed in Vermiculite, water & Brown rice flower?
I was also contemplating burning the needle, waiting for it to cool and then giving the contents a stir through the holes in the lid. Would this help?

 

Don't try to stir the contents of BRF jars, and don't set them in warm water.

 

It's not clear what's causing your varying growth rates but it's certain that those two things won't help.

 

IMO the ideal temp to incubate and fruit in is ~75℉ (~24℃).

 

Oh, and welcome!


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#8 PJammer24

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 09:32 AM

Hey!! fyi, if you have a jar that appears to be fully colonized while the others still have a ways to go, I would give it 7 days after appears fully colonized to make sure it has colonized completely through the center and then I would throw it in the refrigerator until the others are ready. You can stall a jar for months in the fridge with no issues. There is a window where your spawn will be most healthy, most aggressive, and most likely to colonize your substrate prior to contamination. If you let a fully colonized jar sit around for too long, you will bypass the point where it is prime. By throwing it in the fridge, you can maintain it at its most vigorous and will have better results.

 

I would suggest being patient rather than trying to increase the temperatures to encourage faster growth. In theory, warmer temps will encourage faster growth but those increased temps also encourage contaminates. You are much more likely to contaminate when you artificially increase the temps than if you colonize at room temperature. It may take a few more days but you will have more consistent results long term...

 

You also need to keep in mind that if the room's ambient temperature is 75f then the temp at the jar's center is closer to 78f+... The mycelium's metabolic process produces heat. If you want an idea of how warm the spawn is at its center, add a few degrees to the room's temperature... I don't know exactly how much warmer it is within the spawn jar but I suspect it is 3-5 degrees Fahrenheit...

 

 

I have asked this question before and expressed my disdain but I don't recall ever getting a response... Does it bother anyone else that mycelium is not a recognized word on this mushroom related forum?? How can this not be in the sites vocabulary... At least once a week this really irks me... lol


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#9 PJammer24

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 09:34 AM

 

I'm having the same problem with my jars. 2 appear to be nearly done and the other 4 are all different. It's been 3 weeks. I obviously have no patience. They just don't appear to be growing. There must be a way to speed up the process? Total newbee question, but what if you let the base of the jars sit in warm water? I have one of those
Sous Vide Cookers. What's the ideal temperature for GT spores mixed in Vermiculite, water & Brown rice flower?
I was also contemplating burning the needle, waiting for it to cool and then giving the contents a stir through the holes in the lid. Would this help?

 

Don't try to stir the contents of BRF jars, and don't set them in warm water.

 

It's not clear what's causing your varying growth rates but it's certain that those two things won't help.

 

IMO the ideal temp to incubate and fruit in is ~75℉ (~24℃).

 

Oh, and welcome!

 

Hey TV, correct me if I am wrong but I suspect the varying growth rates are due to multi-spore being used... Each one of the holes received different spores and different genetic combinations... Some of the genetics are simply more aggressive than the rest and all you can really do is stay the course and let them do their thing...



#10 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 October 2020 - 10:23 AM

Could be. But that's not been the case for me though I also make my own syringes with so many spores in them (I use one large print per 60cc syringe) that every inoculation point contains a roughly equal number of spores so long as I inject enough to ensure the spore solution makes it all the way to the bottom of the jar (this is easier done than said). With a typical vendor syringe the spore load is relatively light so different injection points can have widely varying numbers of spores which then might result in widely varying colonization rates.

 

I'm not sure about this but I strongly suspect that competing strains don't really "compete" until one overwhelms the rest so much as they merge via anastomosis and eventually undergo karyogamy (fuse their nuclei), forming a single strain/phenotype. That would explain why injecting more spores results in faster colonization than injecting fewer spores even if a multispore jar is ultimately dominated by a single strain (which is an assumption on my part as I've not seen any actual evidence that a multispore culture eventually resolves into a single, dominant strain). With my spore syringes being so dense, each jar has hundreds of millions of monokaryons sprouting that are probably quickly forming tens of millions of dikaryotic strains at each inoculation point, and getting them all sorted into one dominant strain by the time the cake is ready to birth seems unlikely.

 

Fungal genetics are probably much more complicated than they seem, and they seem really fucking complicated. Everything I wrote here may be completely wrong.

 

One thing I've always been curious about is what's going on genetically when I get a few flushes from a run of multispore BRF cakes then bust them all up and combine them into a tray to squeeze another flush or two from them; each jar began as a multispore culture, and then all the jars were combined into one tray where all the busted-up chunks fuse into a single colony that is essentially a new multispore (or multi-colony, rather) culture that manages to fruit again. I've never had a multispore grow fail to fruit and have never been disappointed by the yields or potency.

 

Incidentally, those are some of the reasons why I haven't bothered with isolates in years.

 

But this is all getting way too far into advanced/hypothetical territory that doesn't really help anyone master the basics of BRF jars. Anyone reading this who is at that stage that should disregard this reply as it only unnecessarily complicates things.


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#11 coorsmikey

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Posted 10 October 2020 - 10:44 AM

Traditional jars of grain spawn has some advantages over using BRF cakes. especially if one is in a hurry. Grain spawn can be inoculated the same way as BRF but when partially colonized, the jars can be shaken to distribute the mycelium more evenly, thus having multiple jars ready at the same time. Plus grain spawn on average can be ready in less than two weeks. 

I get that the OP has picked a tek cuz if sounds easy and fool proof. Probably because of the materials all ready on hand played a factor as well when deciding to move to bulk grows. So I am really just pointing out that there are other ways that are easier and more efficient  for just a few more dollars that require the same skill set. 


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#12 FunG

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Posted 10 October 2020 - 02:40 PM

If OP wanted to play with bulk he/she'd have better results steam sterilizing popcorn as spawn since I know that works better then pfcakes.

OEM has a thread going on it right now.

#13 happytimes

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Posted 12 October 2020 - 04:48 AM

Thank you everyone who responded. I will let the front runniners cool off in the fridge while they wait for the stragglers to fully innoculate.

 

Next time I think I will try making grain spawn so I can shake them along to speed up the process. Thank you coorsmikey for the advice.

 

FunG mentions mentions sterilizing popcorn. Any chance you could elaborate further on this method, or past a link to a video or article showing me how to do this? Once it's innoculated does it go into a fruiting chamber as a cake, or do you need to mix it in with a substrate. Links or advice on this would be extremely appreciated.



#14 Auhron

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 05:35 AM

I have asked this question before and expressed my disdain but I don't recall ever getting a response... Does it bother anyone else that mycelium is not a recognized word on this mushroom related forum?? How can this not be in the sites vocabulary... At least once a week this really irks me... lol

 

Right click the word while in the text editor for your post and add the word to your dictionary. That will eliminate that squiggly line telling you it's not right. It's not a "site vocabulary" issue, but it did bother me so I corrected it the first time I saw it.


Edited by Auhron, 18 October 2020 - 06:53 AM.

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#15 coorsmikey

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 10:46 AM

 

I have asked this question before and expressed my disdain but I don't recall ever getting a response... Does it bother anyone else that mycelium is not a recognized word on this mushroom related forum?? How can this not be in the sites vocabulary... At least once a week this really irks me... lol

 

Right click the word while in the text editor for your post and add the word to your dictionary. That will eliminate that squiggly line telling you it's not right. It's not a "site vocabulary" issue, but it did bother me so I corrected it the first time I saw it.

 

I believe it needs corrected in your browser PJammer.

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