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#1 FunnyFarmer

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Posted 20 August 2020 - 11:41 AM

I'm a first time grower and need a little advice about what is referred to as mushroom piss. I'm using the all in one bag (yea, yea, I know) and it's in the process of colonizing the substrate after mixing. Is it safe to slit the bottom of the bag about an inch (sterile precautions of course), cover it with micropore tape and let it drain? It's getting to the point where I'm concerned that it will drown itself in it's own piss. Thanks guys!



#2 TVCasualty

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Posted 20 August 2020 - 12:02 PM

A photo would help a lot. But in any case standing water (or metabolic fluid) is not good.

 

It's also uncommon to have a heavy metabolite problem before a substrate has finished colonizing, so it could mean the sub is too wet or is contaminated. Any off odors? If you have bacterial contamination the "aroma" won't be subtle.

 

Draining the excess fluid might be the way to go, but not if it's contaminated so that needs to be determined first.


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#3 PJammer24

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Posted 20 August 2020 - 03:57 PM

Metabolites in excess is typically an indication that it is bacterial... Metabolites, also known by laymen as "mushroom piss", has antibacterial properties and is released in larger amounts in an effort to fight off contaminates. It is hard to say without photos as Senior Casualty as already said but it does not sound all that promising.... If you are growing from spore solution directly into the bag, your odds of having bacterial issues or issues with other competitors is significantly higher than if you are working directly from a live culture and/or LC


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#4 TVCasualty

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 10:13 AM

I would go so far as to say that if the sub is not fully colonized and you're seeing grain that looks like it's underwater it's almost certainly contaminated. It will probably be surprisingly warm to the touch, too (noticeably higher than room temp).

 

My initial reply was a bit ambiguous about that. I should've been more clear that "not good" meant "almost certainly contaminated."


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#5 FunnyFarmer

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 10:36 AM

I was going to get a picture but dead battery, I'll have to wait for it to charge. Anyway I made a pair of cuts on the bottom of both bags and covered with micropore tape, laid down a paper towel diaper and elevated with a pair of dowels. This morning I changed the diapers and smelled them, no odor that I could detect then wiped their bottoms with alcohol before setting the bags back in the box. Neither bag seems to be abnormally warm. I'm thinking the piss made a tea from the substrate, that's why it's amber colored and probably stained the mycelium. Neither bag is ready for fruiting as they haven't been fully colonized yet, close but not quite. I'll post a pic when I can. Thanks guys!

 

FYI  As indicated I used all in one bags and inoculated with spore syringes.


Edited by FunnyFarmer, 21 August 2020 - 10:51 AM.


#6 FunG

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 11:11 AM

From my experience with metabolites is that they eventually evaporate and just leave the myc a discolored yellowish tint but still remain healthy for fruiting. Myc that's discolored from metabolites is different then mycelium that's yellow from being dead (overlay)

Seeing as you're using a all in one then I'd be a little more concerned about standing water in a bag with little evaporation occurring, it's a different story with tubs standing water eventually evaporates (unless the tub surface is like a swimming pool)

You did the right thing by draining it and I wouldn't be overly concerned if the myc has a tint to it from the metabolites but should be perfectly fine.

Edited by FunG, 21 August 2020 - 11:13 AM.


#7 PJammer24

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 12:47 PM

Metabolites in abundance are almost always an indication of contamination except in cases where the spawn has been left to sit on the shelf for a significant length of time... There are always metabolites being created due to the organisms metabolism but if it is starting to pool in the bag or jar, those are the reasons... Healthy spawn does not create significant amounts of metabolites in the short term or during the period when it would be considered healthy and prime... There is a reason why some jars create excess metabolites and others do not, it is not a random occurrence with healthy spawn as the previous post insinuates... Healthy spawn does not simply create more metabolites sometimes while at other times it does not as has been suggested above...

 

Older spawn will have metabolite buildup because it has been metabolizing the nutrients in the grain over a longer period of time and it has built up to the point that it is evident... The build up in older jars can also be attributed to bacteria in many cases, as it is in younger jars, since spawn left to sit is likely to become contaminated as the mycelium weakens and it begins to lose the battle with competitors...

 

Also, this isn't what this thread is about, but overlay does not typically occur with cubes, and if it does, it would be when using a casing layer... Casing layers are not necessary with cubes and overlay is a symptom of casing layers that is more common in strains requiring casing layers...

 

pooling metabolites is indicative of infection and I can say with some confidence that this is what you are dealing with even though I have not seen photos...



#8 FunnyFarmer

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 12:49 PM

Whew, glad I did the right thing. I was getting the feeling that if I let it go any longer I'd regret it.

 

Ecuador

DSC01498 (Small).JPG   DSC01499 (Small).JPG

 

B+

DSC01500 (Small).JPG   DSC01501 (Small).JPG

 

My apologies if this is the wrong thread, I'm still learning the ropes here and don't know where to post this kind of problem.


Edited by FunnyFarmer, 21 August 2020 - 01:02 PM.


#9 FunG

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 01:26 PM

Those bags do not look well at all funnyfarmer, in fact I'd lean more towards a bacteria contaminate being present in the substrate at this point now that I've seen the pictures.

What I was talking about is discoloration from metabolites when the bulk (and spawn) are otherwise healthy, produce metabolites (for unknown reasons) and drys up. Yours is producing metabolites because as mentioned by Tv casualty and pjammer your substrate is fighting something.

I should have waited to view the pics before I reassured you that they were ok. Those do not look ok and that looks to be dead mycelium more so then just simple discoloration from sitting in its metabolites.

Give it another week, if you dont see the mycelium recovering then they're defiantly toast.

A option if you have a garden is a outdoor burial but again by the looks of the bag the grain itself was fighting a bacteria infection prior to you mixing it....if it was just the bulk material then youd have a much more solidified chunk of mycelium, the colonization does not appear to be very healthy growth hence why I say the bacteria originated from improperly sterilized grain rather then bulk material.

Seems trivial but pin pointing the exact source is how you fix the problem in the future.

#10 FunnyFarmer

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 04:03 PM

I didn't want to take a chance so I'm pitching them and starting over. Learn from my mistakes but can't learn if you don't know what mistake you made... I still have one bag and using a new box for it.



#11 FunG

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 04:20 PM

So you're prepping the grains yourself?

I'd leave out the bulk material and just do straight grains in a bag then prep the bulk separately to mix in later. I'd think a all in one bag would have issues from inconsistent moisture throughout since the bulk holds alot more water then the grains and when sterilized the moisture is released which is probably over saturating the grains at my best guess. Kinda appears to be what happened with those two bags.

Good luck funnyfarmer
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#12 FunnyFarmer

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 05:27 PM

I had a pressure canner set to be delivered today but UPS screwed up and delivered to the wrong address. Won't be able to talk to them again until Monday.



#13 FunG

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 06:01 PM

So did you make up the grow bags or did someone else?

You're saying you dont have a PC but surley you wouldn't have attempted to steam sterilize a all in one grow bag....am I wrong to think that?

What kind of pressure cooker did you order?

And that sucks that it got sent to the wrong addy...that's probably one of those things you dont want getting reviewed by electronic records since my paranoia tells me they probably monitor the sales of them these days. Ah well, better luck come monday funnyfarmer. Everyday has its unique qwerks in this hobby as I keep finding out.

#14 FunnyFarmer

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 07:35 PM

The bags were bought already made up from an outfit in southern Ohio. The pressure canner is a 22qt T-fal with pressure gauge. I contacted the Ebay seller but he hasn't gotten back yet...

It sucks that I had two disappointments in one day.  I decided to pitch them cause colonization had pretty much stopped. I'm debating whether to put a pee hole in the bottom of the third bag as a preventative measure.



#15 FunG

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 08:26 PM

That sucks

That's what I have is a 22qt t-gal manufactured by mirro, no pressure gauge.

And the weight is not a jiggle weight like most PC's....the t-fal design is ment to hardly move and when it comes to over pressure it defiantly grabs attention cause the weight rises up on the outlet valve to vent steam and is rather loud and outright scary. Theres a little stopper that prevents the weight from shooting straight up off the valve....

My old mirro 22qt would just sway side to side when at 15psi and let out a gentle hiss....


You've been warned lol

Judging by the sounds of things that vendor is out of touch with reality as far as all in one grow bags are concerned....awesome concept but impossible to get the moisture content right without unbalacing the grain or the bulk material and that moisture issue is what's going to keep leading to bacteria outbreaks.

Someone awhile back posted about buying a all in one grow bag and had similar issues, I wonder if it was the same vendor.

#16 FunnyFarmer

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 09:04 PM

Thanks for the heads up about the T-fal, I knew it was not quite up to par with the other two (Mirro and Presto) but cost drove my decision. I was looking at a used 16 Qt Presto but a new T-fal seemed to be a better decision. If I would have had your info I would have gone with it instead. At this point I don't know what will happen with the delivery and the seller hasn't contacted me yet, I might have to move it up the ladder with Ebay.

 

Right from the get go the grain seemed slow to colonize, a month between inoculating the grain and mixing with substrate. It was about 4-5 days ago I noticed the juice. After pitching them I realized that the colonization had stopped. At this point I'm not sure which tek I'll move on to, the all in one seemed to be fool proof easy way to get into the hobby. I've been looking into the other tek's but the downside is the need for additional equipment that I don't have space or a clean location for. 

 

Thanks for the input and I'll keep it in mind with the delivery SNAFU.



#17 FunG

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 11:13 PM

No problem

Dont get me wrong, the t-fal is a excellent pressure cooker, right up to par with a mirro or presto..... just a different style of "rocker" or "jiggle weight" dont be intimidated by it, it's perfectly safe. If it ever were to become blocked then there are two fail safes included in the lid. The 1st is the red over pressure button that'll pop up to vent incase the main outlet becomes blocked, the 2nd is the gasket release on the lid itself (I've never had it come down to that)

You actually made a good pick for the cost. I payed 180cdn for mine out of a local mainstream franchise called Canadian tire.

As far as the bags are concerned I wonder myself if it's even possible to make a all in one grow bag because of the moisture imbalances like I was saying....surley the bulk material would have mass water evaporation and cause pooling water in the bottom of the bag this over saturating the grains which would already be at field capacity if soaked prior to loading the bag.

If you want full proof grain prep it's easy as soaking the grain in hot water for 6-8hours, draining, rinsing and loading into jars or bags..... if you soak there is no way to bugger the moisture content since the grains will only absorb as much water as they can retain.

When people try no soak preps (and theres very few that do have it nailed spot on) that's usually when problems arise from unbalanced moisture or not distributing it well enough after the PC cycle or having to much water. I prefer to soak, its just easier to get the right water content.

#18 FunnyFarmer

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 08:52 AM

Got some good news, the seller apparently made some kind of error during shipping prep. I went to the UPS website and managed to find the delivery summery, it also lists the weight of the item which was .10 Lb, a little on the light side for a pc. They'll ship on Monday or Tuesday, it'll only take a couple days to arrive.

 

In the meantime I've been trying to track down some organic rye berries locally but not having any luck, probably end up paying the shipping piper. I already have organic cow manure for substrate, just need to gather the other ingredients. Do you have any suggestions on how to prepare the substrate? I'll  probably use the cake layering method, substrate, colonized rye berries, substrate, berries etc. Unless someone has a better method...? I'm having to start from scratch so I'm open to other suggestions or a link. Thanks guys!

 

BTW is there a specific area where the different grow teks are discussed or are they scattered nilly willy all over the place? I used "grow tek" as a search term but came up empty.


Edited by FunnyFarmer, 22 August 2020 - 10:20 AM.


#19 FunG

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 10:43 AM

I'm not sure myself where the "grow logs" are located but they usually contain the best prep methods for bulk material like dung. Its pretty simple to explain however, just get a mesh laundry bag, measure out how many qt's/liters of dung you'll be spawning too, load the bag, and use either a tote or cooler, place that bag in, bring a large pot of water to a raging boil for 5minutes and then poor it in and place on the lid for 90minutes.

You may want to use some 10lb weights wrapped in a garbage bag to fully submerge the bag of dung to prevent it from floating but it usually doesnt make a difference.

And that's how you hot water pasteurize bulk material.

I would recommend against layering simply because mixing maximizes the inoculation points all throughout the substrate. I use wbs and can get a brick of coir fully run in 4-5days and fully consolidated by 7 using 5L worth of spawn. I have tried layering way back in the day and found that it's much slower to colonize.

Just my two cents on the methods.

Organic rye is a real s.o.b to find too, I'm in a major city and theres only two stores that sell it so dont expect it to be the easiest of finds.

#20 FunnyFarmer

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 11:50 AM

I would recommend against layering simply because mixing maximizes the inoculation points all throughout the substrate. I use wbs and can get a brick of coir fully run in 4-5days and fully consolidated by 7 using 5L worth of spawn. I have tried layering way back in the day and found that it's much slower to colonize.

 

 

I'll check the Youtube videos unless you can point me to a better step by step guide. Lowe's carries a bag of coir, not brick so saving on some labor. Thanks!

 

I opened one of the discarded bags, the bottom of the substrate was slimy but no odor but my sense of smell never has been very good. Once a friend held a highly scented bar of soap to my nose, I couldn't smell it.


Edited by FunnyFarmer, 22 August 2020 - 12:43 PM.





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