38 replies to this topic

[Oam]

Hi guys, I’m back on the wagon again with my work. I’ve stripped my pc of the faulty electrical and housing and we are rocking like new.
I have some GT, B+, and lions on popcorn tek at full colonization ready to be g2g transferred to the rest of my jars. I’ve also made some sawdust blocks for my LM. But I digress, I took some inner tissue and gill samples from a very blue dried mushroom that was gifted to a friend. It looked very similar to Azurescens. My first thought was to take a sample before the gift was consumed by my friend. I rehydrated the samples with DW and transferred them to agar. This was all done as sterile as possible. I know I should transfer this x3 times for cleanup but, I’ve never seen bluing in mycelium like this and it made me question if I really was lucky enough on my first shot? My other dish went south and was placed in wood chips in back just in case. I also made test LC’s for shits and giggles out of the water the gills rehydrated in and the other are tissue samples. Thanks for any help guys.



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Edited by Oam, 15 September 2020 - 11:27 AM.

[FunG]

Can I be the first to point out that popcorn doesnt need to be pc'd, its food grade and does not contain endospores like that found in rye, wbs, millet etc etc.

You can steam it in a pot like pf cakes and it'll be sterilized.

I just figure with a AA like you've got your time could be better invested in one of the alternative whole grains which are more nutricious then popcorn. After spending a year and a few months getting medicore results I switched back to wbs and the difference in net weight produced in the end is astronomical when compared to what the popcorn would yield per the same spawn ratios...

There was a debate in another thread where I posted the comparison photos but then again I used Ms but still I grew with popcorn enough times to know the average yield per liter was less then a oz dry when spawned to coir. TVCasualty said he had better results when spawning popcorn to a nutricious substrate like horse manure/straw and gympsum which I believe is what is needed for popcorn since like I said it's very medicore yielding on just coir but coir is non nutritious...

As for the blue mycelium, is it not just whispy myc on blue food dye? That's what it looks like to me.

Now to sit back and wait to read others comments about how wrong I am about something, I'll bet the first one will be about not having to PC popcorn at 15psi lol

Some of the best things were discovered by accident....just look at Albert Hoffman and lsd haha in this case its popcorn for folks without a pressure cooker.

[Oam]

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Sorry for the confusion [mention]FunG [/mention]. What you said is what I did to clarify. I even tossed one in the oven to try it out. That run was not popcorn in the pc. Thanks though. Now , as far as the dye and mycelium go I wasn’t sure because this is my first positive go with agar.

Edited by Oam, 15 September 2020 - 10:57 AM.

[TVCasualty]

Hi guys, I’m back on the wagon again with my work. I’ve stripped my pc of the faulty electrical and housing and we are rocking like new.&&0){for(var>)throw>

 

 

So was your PC originally a "sterilizer" model, with its own electric heating element and all the rest?

 

It would probably be worthwhile to fix it since there are some really nice advantages to having a much more expensive sterilizer model vs. the regular version.

 

And what's the story with that band of rust around it near the top? That's more than idle curiosity on my part since cast aluminum cookers are more easily subject to damage that potentially makes them dangerous because they're more brittle than steel cookers. 

 

FWIW, that spawn bag looks a lot more cottony than I like to see for cubes, so it could either be a contaminant or a problematic substrain since cottony mycelium doesn't fruit nearly as well as rhizomorphic growth (if it fruits at all). The growth in the jars looks a lot better in that respect, at least so long as all the black specs are something you added like coffee grounds and are not a contam.

 

 

If you took tissue samples from the gills of a dried mushroom then chances are you're mostly seeing growth from sprouted spores, not reanimated dry tissue. It could be a bit of both as well, however.

 

 

I was never concerned with the nutritional content of popcorn since I was just using it as a carrier for the mycelium to colonize straw with that gives me extremely consistent and reliable results. That said, when I toss a substrate after 2 or 3 flushes the kernels of corn are definitely depleted, and after 4 or 5 flushes they're just little desiccated husks.

 

 

 

Can I be the first to point out that popcorn doesnt need to be pc'd, its food grade and does not contain endospores like that found in rye, wbs, millet etc etc.

Now to sit back and wait to read others comments about how wrong I am about something, I'll bet the first one will be about not having to PC popcorn at 15psi lol
 

 

Sure, you can be the first to suggest that.

 

But doesn't it make you wonder why you're the first to suggest that when there are plenty of growers around who have been using popcorn for many years who don't suggest that?

 

There's a big difference between enjoying a run of good luck and making a habit of "best practices" for mycology. The difference becomes apparent when the luck runs out.

 

Some growers use organic, food-grade rye or millet, but they don't claim PCing is unnecessary. That's probably because endospores (as well as plain ol' spores) are ubiquitous in the environment and not specific to a type of grain (or grade of it).

 

So popcorn would only be free of contaminant fungal spores or bacterial endospores if it was grown, harvested, processed, packaged, transported, opened, AND used entirely within sterile environments and conditions. Which it isn't.

 

FWIW, my approach has been working very well for me consistently for a very long time. That is, every time I attempt to use popcorn for spawn with spores proven to be clean, I succeed. Which means my contamination rates for spawn jars and bags are less than 1%; most are 100% successful and I start to troubleshoot if more than one jar of BRF or jar/bag of popcorn contaminates.

[TVCasualty]

That jar in the water in the oven is going to be disappointing at best, and is potentially dangerous if the water all evaporates out of the dish. That risks heating up the ceramic dish too much, and when you take it out of the oven it may shatter depending on what you set it on.

 

You're not going to sterilize the corn that way, and you'll probably dry out the grain.

[Oam]

[mention]TVCasualty [/mention] the bags are Lion’s mane not cubes. The jars do have coffee. All jars came out about the same as far as moisture content go. Safety was a concern but I went with it. I’ll noc it up last and we shall see. The pc was a dental autoclave that’s an older model AA with an off brand label. It had electrical issues with an outer heating element. The outer ring on the pc are from the outer housing holding the pc and something spilled between each by the prior user and I’ve done my best to get it off. I’m stoked if the spores took. Thanks for the input guys.

Edited by Oam, 15 September 2020 - 11:23 AM.

[PJammer24]

Can I be the first to point out that popcorn doesnt need to be pc'd, its food grade and does not contain endospores like that found in rye, wbs, millet etc etc.

You can steam it in a pot like pf cakes and it'll be sterilized.

I just figure with a AA like you've got your time could be better invested in one of the alternative whole grains which are more nutricious then popcorn. After spending a year and a few months getting medicore results I switched back to wbs and the difference in net weight produced in the end is astronomical when compared to what the popcorn would yield per the same spawn ratios...

There was a debate in another thread where I posted the comparison photos but then again I used Ms but still I grew with popcorn enough times to know the average yield per liter was less then a oz dry when spawned to coir. TVCasualty said he had better results when spawning popcorn to a nutricious substrate like horse manure/straw and gympsum which I believe is what is needed for popcorn since like I said it's very medicore yielding on just coir but coir is non nutritious...

As for the blue mycelium, is it not just whispy myc on blue food dye? That's what it looks like to me.

Now to sit back and wait to read others comments about how wrong I am about something, I'll bet the first one will be about not having to PC popcorn at 15psi lol

Some of the best things were discovered by accident....just look at Albert Hoffman and lsd haha in this case its popcorn for folks without a pressure cooker.

This is not true regarding popcorn... Popcorn, like every other grain, gets exposed to the air and will thus need to be sterilized.

 

This is the first I have ever heard someone suggesting that popcorn should not be PC'd. You could potentially use fractional sterilization.

 

There are spores and endospores throughout our environment and to suggest that for some reason popcorn is impervious is ridiculous... Even if the popcorn packaging process was completely sterile, which it is not, the moment you expose the popcorn to the air in your house it is coming in contact with potential contaminates.

 

More great advice from our resident genius...

 

Edit:  Just realized that TV pretty much covered this... Right on the money as usual...

Edited by PJammer24, 15 September 2020 - 12:29 PM.

[Oam]

Got it, PC it all. I’m finding that there are a lot of cutthroat opinions on teks. I’m willing to try them all with an expected fail rate in some areas. The beautiful thing about it is that trial and error are my teacher with wise myco elders that correct and guide me along the way. I like to always begin when I start over with I know nothing.

[PJammer24]

Got it, PC it all. I’m finding that there are a lot of cutthroat opinions on teks. I’m willing to try them all with an expected fail rate in some areas. The beautiful thing about it is that trial and error are my teacher with wise myco elders that correct and guide me along the way. I like to always begin when I start over with I know nothing.

Most of the recorded teks are tried and true... Unfortunately, there are people who make comments where it is clear that they have not been based on a wealth of experience... Your best bet for advice is the guys who have been around for a while absorbing knowledge and gaining experience to where they are able to provide sound advice. There are a lot of the olde timers on here still doin their thing!

[TVCasualty]

[mention]TVCasualty [/mention] the bags are Lion’s mane not cubes. The jars do have coffee. All jars came out about the same as far as moisture content go. Safety was a concern but I went with it. I’ll noc it up last and we shall see. The pc was a dental autoclave that’s an older model AA with an off brand label. It had electrical issues with an outer heating element. The outer ring on the pc are from the outer housing holding the pc and something spilled between each by the prior user and I’ve done my best to get it off. I’m stoked if the spores took. Thanks for the input guys.

 

It looks pretty good for Lion's Mane, which is why I added the caveat "for cubes" since I didn't know what it was supposed to be.

 

Sounds like an aftermarket modification was used on an All American PC to make it sort of like a sterilizer; was there an insert basket and capillary tube included?

 

And the rust is only an aesthetic issue since it's not a contaminant and isn't going to affect the aluminum. I was just curious how it got there.

[Oam]

[mention]TVCasualty [/mention] the bags are Lion’s mane not cubes. The jars do have coffee. All jars came out about the same as far as moisture content go. Safety was a concern but I went with it. I’ll noc it up last and we shall see. The pc was a dental autoclave that’s an older model AA with an off brand label. It had electrical issues with an outer heating element. The outer ring on the pc are from the outer housing holding the pc and something spilled between each by the prior user and I’ve done my best to get it off. I’m stoked if the spores took. Thanks for the input guys.

It looks pretty good for Lion's Mane, which is why I added the caveat "for cubes" since I didn't know what it was supposed to be.

Sounds like an aftermarket modification was used on an All American PC to make it sort of like a sterilizer; was there an insert basket and capillary tube included?

And the rust is only an aesthetic issue since it's not a contaminant and isn't going to affect the aluminum. I was just curious how it got there.

Here is how it was originally [mention]TVCasualty [/mention].

Edited by Oam, 15 September 2020 - 01:50 PM.

[TVCasualty]

Well that's definitely an AA Sterilizer. Good score!

 

FWIW, you might want to buy a regulator weight for it instead of using the valve it came with (the round type made for AA PCs that lets you pick 5, 10, or 15 psi). You'll need the nozzle the weight sits on as well (the threads are the same as the valve).

 

This would free you from having to worry about how accurate the gauge is (you can also send in the gauge for calibration). If it hasn't been calibrated then it's probably not accurate. One of mine reads 11 psi when it's at 15 and another reads 18 when it's at 15. I know this because the weight is always accurate while the gauge may not be. The weight also ensures all the air is vented in case you start building the pressure before fully venting all the air (which is something you want to do).

 

The weight also gets really noisy when the heat is up too high, which warns you to turn it down without risking popping the rubber plug out. If the pressure gets too high when using the valve, and especially with an uncalibrated gauge, you risk getting the living shit scared out of you when the valve pops open and starts venting large volumes of VERY noisy steam until you close it again.

 

A downside to the weight is that it won't allow the PC to form a vacuum upon cooling, but then I've never used a sterilizer that did that so it's not essential.

 

The main advantage to running a sterilizer with integrated heating is that you can "set and forget" it, unlike a conventional PC.

[Oam]

I purchased it from eBay for $69. I replaced the lid and all the top components a few years ago with help from the forum. I’m perfectly content with watching the gauge. I’ve never been comfortable with set it and forget it methods with pc’s. This is coming from a prior surgical tech who ran large sterilizers (this does not mean I’m good at mycology by any means but it helps). I run my pressure up to 15 and release to zero and wait until I’m at 15 again and start my time.

Edited by Oam, 15 September 2020 - 02:28 PM.

[FunG]

Sorry to hijack this thread but if popcorn is steamed in a pot of boiling water it's for the purpose of sterilizing it of mold/viri/bacteria but not archane bacteria which is found in all commercial supplies of whole grains. If I remember this correctly archane bacteria is the oldest known bacteria on earth since its formation and is impossible to destroy even with a pressure cooker. The heat from a PC only renders it dormant but they still can become active given the elements of life, water, oxygen.

Popcorn does not contain archane bacteria.
You can steam it in a pot and it will be sterilized, I did it for a year straight. You cant tell me I'm crazy cause I was posting the results to the forum the entire time pjammer.

[Oam]

I’m having success thus far, so we’ll see [mention]FunG [/mention] . Popcorn/coffee via boil tek. I noc’d them up with LC’s on 8/18/20 with one shake a week ago. Left to right : Golden Teacher, Lion’s Mane, B+.

[TVCasualty]

I've never heard or read mention of Archaea in the context of growing fungi or mycology as being a special case or relevant to the specifics of any procedures (they're just "Archaea" now, not Archaeobacteria which is no longer applicable to the Domain). Got any links to studies about such organisms surviving autoclaving?

 

I guess it's time for someone else to try to replicate successful grows with popcorn using only a bowl of boiling water (since the popcorn inside a jar sitting in a bowl that has water in it won't be "steamed," it will be just be heated since there's no way for the steam to get inside the jar while it's sitting in an oven or on a stove).

[PJammer24]

Sorry to hijack this thread but if popcorn is steamed in a pot of boiling water it's for the purpose of sterilizing it of mold/viri/bacteria but not archane bacteria which is found in all commercial supplies of whole grains. If I remember this correctly archane bacteria is the oldest known bacteria on earth since its formation and is impossible to destroy even with a pressure cooker. The heat from a PC only renders it dormant but they still can become active given the elements of life, water, oxygen.

Popcorn does not contain archane bacteria.
You can steam it in a pot and it will be sterilized, I did it for a year straight. You cant tell me I'm crazy cause I was posting the results to the forum the entire time pjammer.

That still doesn't add up... The moment you open the bag of popcorn and expose it to the air, you are exposing it to everything in the environment where it would be exposed to bacteria, spores, and endospores of all types.

"steaming" as you call it is actually referred to as fractional sterilization when done properly... You may have a higher rate of success doing that with a human food grade product because it is cleaner but it is by no means a sure thing. To suggest that you "don't have to PC popcorn" is irresponsible. Yes, fractional sterilization can work but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't PC and that PCing isn't better... Suggesting that is all that one should be doing is poor advice.

Considering I’ve had spores survive a 90 min PC cook at 15psi with mold germinating before I inoculated many times, I can guarantee that you will get better results when using a PC rather than a hot water bath... Even when fractional sterilization is done properly, you are essentially letting the spores germinate and then killing them prior to colonization. Popcorn would likely be the best grain to use a hot water bath to sterilize but it is certainly not the most effective way to do it and will result in more contaminated jars.

Edited by PJammer24, 16 September 2020 - 07:35 PM.

[FunG]

By steaming I ment in a pot with boiling water and a lid covering the pot...like steaming lobster.

It worked everytime I accidently did it using my PC but not under pressure.... just steam in a pot.

I thought there was no difference in quality of grain produced from a manufacturer pjammer, didnt you say that yourself?

And also the bacteria class associated with archaea according to wikipedia was bacillus which was said to me to be what whole grains most commonly get when improperly pc'd and what gives off that foul smelling brown slime that looks like a wet grain up against the glass. So maybe I'm confused but I always called it "wetspot" maybe it's something else

Either way, it doesnt ever happen with popcorn so popcorn couldnt contain that specific bacteria. This is after a year of observations so more than several popcorn jars were made and prepared without them ever being under 15psi.

[coorsmikey]

You can steam it in a pot and it will be sterilized, I did it for a year straight. You cant tell me I'm crazy cause I was posting the results to the forum the entire time pjammer.

I do believe that steaming a pot for a year straight would technically fall under Sterile!  

I also think that its safe to say that there has been an established consensus that says if you extend that amount of time for Steaming or like Pj mentions even Fractional sterilization  that the odds are better for success. By simply implying that you can skip the process of using a PC in direct substitution for steaming can give folks that are new to this the impression that they can just steam without making any adjustments. Thats where the assumption of giving bad advise comes from. Even experience cultivators like PJ above can screw up a batch in the PC just like he mentioned, It happens more often with newbs especially as they don't know all the tricks to operate a brand new PC the most efficiently. Things like letting the air out before putting on the weight and starting the time or that you don't have to run the stove on high the whole run. Short cuts should be learned from experience rather than I told you so. Why not let others know the most effective way to succeed before telling them that if they are a lucky as you they can skip some really important steps in understanding how to not grow a bunch of nasties.

 

Another question..... FunG, doesn't the method you use for popcorn require soaking (germination of endospores) and then boiling the popcorn? Then drying the popcorn and running it though the PC? Wouldn't that fall under Fractional Sterilization? Maybe the PC I'm thinking of was not getting up to pressure when you were sharing your experiences on popcorn. Do you mind linking some of those posts during that year you were steaming the popcorn vs using the standard 90min @15 psi on the PC? I think those would be helpful to establish the point you're making. Especially the times you used if your PC was malfunctioning.

[FunG]

Not at all coorsmikey, what I was saying though was that popcorn does not have the same kind of bacterial endospores as every other whole grain.

That was my argument originally.

I mentioned that it may have to do with the fact that popcorn is a food grade product right out of the bag (after it's been popped or course)

So it must be processed in a way that removes bacterial endospores (if!) Popcorn even contains those same kind of endospores as whole grains like rye and wbs.

I'd be interested to know how a corn kernel is processed into popcorn seeing as you cant stick corn kernels into a microwave and expect them to pop....they process it in a way that makes it pop. And it's highly likely that during the process that the bacteria (if any) is rendered dormant or removed completely.
Here ya go, don't thank me, just trying to help!

[Direct Link]

Fractional sterilization from my understanding was steaming in intervals, 90minutes one day, 90minutes the next.

I never heard the term fractional sterilization when reading the original pf tek guide by fanaticus....he just said it was steaming the jars in boiling water more or less (for the lack of a better summary)

I'd have to dig threw my posts made during my time using popcorn and all I can say is that I was under the assumption the PC was malfunctioning when it wasnt, I just wasnt capping the valve properly with the weight so what I thought was a leaking pressure cooker was all fault on my end....that's how I came to the conclusion that after a year of error operating my pressure cooker without it ever being at 15psi that popcorn can be steamed in a pot just like pf cakes and it will sterilize it of mold spores and any easy to kill bacteria but not bacillus but that's ok since like I said, I never once seen a popcorn kernel produce "wetspot" bacteria.

The process i used was pretty generic

Fill the jars half way with popcorn
Add hot water from the tap
Let soak/hydrate until the popcorn expanded
Rinse, drain in a a colander
Reload the jars and steam for 90minutes

Often there would be pooling water in the bottom of the jar after steaming, while still hot I'd shake the popcorn jar and the water would reabsorb into the kernels while cooling....

I read that there are several different types of corn produced, sweetcorn is not popcorn. My bad, but the article from google says that popcorn is it's own plant much like psilocybes come in different mushrooms.. it also says that popcorn once harvested is taken to a processing facility but doesnt elaborate on the procedures once there but it also mentioned that popcorn would be left to dry for up to 12montha but doesnt say if its heat treated (which it probably is)

And another thing I wanted to mention is that not all whole grains would contain archaea bacteria such as bacillus cause brown rice doesnt require to be under 15psi either, it too can be steamed in a pot and be sterile.

I wouldn't even bother writing half of what I'm saying if it did not hold merit, no point in misleading people that's not how I get my jollies.

Edited by coorsmikey, 02 October 2020 - 08:19 PM.