24 replies to this topic

[Oam]

I’ve learned a lot from you guys so far with the discussions. I did my g2g transfer of B+,GT, and a wedge of agar from the isolated mushroom sample I took. My Lion’s Mane jar is tight as a tick and may require a sterile spoon so I left it for tomorrow. The OVEN jar wasn’t looking good (as expected) so I 86’d it due to the wet spots I saw. I never did anything with the jar so it wasn’t a loss. Thanks again.

Edited by Oam, 21 September 2020 - 09:18 AM.

[TVCasualty]

This discussion is starting to seem really weird to me, like an argument for the sake of argument.

 

It's conceivable that we can get away with half-assing the sterilization step for a particular grain (and I would describe Fractional Sterilization as half-assing the sterilization step), though I've not seen anyone else replicate such an approach successfully yet. It would be interesting to try steaming a popcorn jar and letting it seal like canning preserves. Then set it on a shelf at room temp and observe it for a few weeks. If it never contaminates then it was truly "sterilized." I've done this by accident in the past when I PC'd grain jars that sealed I intended to use later. I didn't get around to it and after a month the jars still showed no sign of anything growing, which suggests they were truly sterilized.

 

 

There's a reason why the concept of "best practices" exists, and for growing fungi on whole grain using a PC to sterilize it is best practices.

 

That is not to say that doing less will fail, it will just have a much higher probability of failing. Fractional sterilization/ just steaming might work, and might work a bunch of times, but IMO it should be relegated to situations where PCing the grain according to industry standards is not possible for whatever reason.

 

And speaking of industry standards, I would be very surprised if any profitable commercial spawn producer steams the grain they use for spawn. They would have a huge incentive to cut costs by switching to a cheaper method of prepping spawn since steaming requires considerably less energy and expensive equipment than pressurizing an industrial retort with dry steam. The most reliable source of best practices for a given process is arguably companies that have significant capital investments in that process. They have to balance the competing incentives of minimizing costs and maximizing success. If they get it wrong they go bankrupt. To my knowledge all commercial spawn producers use retorts to cook their grain under pressure (usually at 29 or 30 psi for retorts).

 

 

This has become an oddly specific discussion about a type of bacterial contaminant that doesn't present problems for us nearly as often as molds, and while bacterial contamination can smell like hot death it's not the acute health hazard that fungal contamination can present (e.g. aflatoxins). I'm not concerned about bacteria as a contaminant since I won't eat the contaminated grain but I'm very concerned about molds since I might breathe the air they're off-gassing mycotoxins and ejecting spores into.

 

Here's a bit of light reading for plant pathologists published by the USDA (and horror for freelance mycologists): Grain Fungal Diseases and Mycotoxin Reference

 

Lots of entries concerning feed and food-grade corn in there, and it's only concerned with fungal diseases (no bacteria or Archaea).

 

 

IMO we should take care that not only do our methods work most if not every time, they should also maximize our safety with regard to exposing us to serious health hazards (i.e., "best practices" are about more than just getting a successful harvest).

[FunG]

Sorry for throwing your thread abit off course oam.

And to correct myself, they wouldn't heat treat poporn because it would pop lol excuse that speculation but it is processed and cleaned in some way that the article did not elaborate on since like I mentioned it is food grade just like brown rice and it does not contain the archaea bacteria "bacillus" otherwise known to me as "wetspot" and one more thing oam....I may be incorrect about which bacterial endospore is found in what grain products so it may not be called "bacillus" but I'm 99.5% certain that's what was the label of the rod shaped bacteria most commonly encountered in improperly pressure cooked jars....mostly happens when someone forgets to vent for 10minutes before capping the outlet valve on their PC and when using whole grains other then brown rice and popcorn.

I am arguing that after a year of using popcorn that I never once encountered "wetspot" and my batches were only steamed for 90minutes.... sorry for repeating myself.

I wish you luck with your agar transfers gt and b+ are both awesome cubensis to work with and it's a good thing you remembered to use a "sterilized" spoon cause that's also a common mistake people make is using a "washed" spoon rather then sterilized and end up cross contaminating everything.

And one thing I have to ask is, do you have a picture of the "wetspot" in the oven jar? Cause I would like to get it identified.... popcorn can rot from to much water but it's not bacteria. There is a difference.... wetspot produces a clear to brown slime around the kernel and smells like a dead body that's been decomposed awhile.

Again sorry for arguing in your thread

Just wanted to say thank you for the informative post TVcausality.... I wouldn't suggest anyone skips out on a pressure cooker but like you said fractional sterilization/steaming never failed in a year of using exclusively popcorn. But one thing I want to point out about fractional sterilization not being on par with industry standards is that commercial mushroom growers would not be using popcorn as spawn anyways due to like you also said the operational costs would be outrages. Not to mention popcorn can serv as a means of propigation to bulk but it only yields half of what other whole grains do so it's not practical for use in a commercial farm.

I very much enjoy the read, peace man.

Edited by FunG, 21 September 2020 - 11:49 AM.

[Oam]

Sorry for throwing your thread abit off course oam.

And to correct myself, they wouldn't heat treat poporn because it would pop lol excuse that speculation but it is processed and cleaned in some way that the article did not elaborate on since like I mentioned it is food grade just like brown rice and it does not contain the archaea bacteria "bacillus" otherwise known to me as "wetspot" and one more thing oam....I may be incorrect about which bacterial endospore is found in what grain products so it may not be called "bacillus" but I'm 99.5% certain that's what was the label of the rod shaped bacteria most commonly encountered in improperly pressure cooked jars....mostly happens when someone forgets to vent for 10minutes before capping the outlet valve on their PC and when using whole grains other then brown rice and popcorn.

I am arguing that after a year of using popcorn that I never once encountered "wetspot" and my batches were only steamed for 90minutes.... sorry for repeating myself.

I wish you luck with your agar transfers gt and b+ are both awesome cubensis to work with and it's a good thing you remembered to use a "sterilized" spoon cause that's also a common mistake people make is using a "washed" spoon rather then sterilized and end up cross contaminating everything.

And one thing I have to ask is, do you have a picture of the "wetspot" in the oven jar? Cause I would like to get it identified.... popcorn can rot from to much water but it's not bacteria. There is a difference.... wetspot produces a clear to brown slime around the kernel and smells like a dead body that's been decomposed awhile.

Again sorry for arguing in your thread

No worries guys. [mention]FunG [/mention] I tossed the oven jar as soon as I saw “the clear to brown slime like substance”. Your description was a little too accurate for comfort and helped me confirm my nightmare.

[Oam]

This is my first above ground magic(truffles under my belt) go at this. I have transferred my Golden Teacher (the one with more growth)and B+ grain spawn to hpoo mix and we are 9 days out with this photo. I went super conservative with this first run to get my feet wet. Any casing advice would be helpful.
I’m also happy to show mycelium growing from the LC’s I made from the dry specimen I took. One is spore water from the rehydrated gills, and the other is spore water and gill tissue.

Edited by Oam, Yesterday, 07:06 AM.