Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Is this blue mycelium?


  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#21 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 21 September 2020 - 09:18 AM

I’ve learned a lot from you guys so far with the discussions. I did my g2g transfer of B+,GT, and a wedge of agar from the isolated mushroom sample I took. My Lion’s Mane jar is tight as a tick and may require a sterile spoon so I left it for tomorrow. The OVEN jar wasn’t looking good (as expected) so I 86’d it due to the wet spots I saw. I never did anything with the jar so it wasn’t a loss. Thanks again.

Edited by Oam, 21 September 2020 - 09:18 AM.

  • TVCasualty likes this

#22 TVCasualty

TVCasualty

    Embrace Your Damage

  • Moderator
  • 13,484 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 21 September 2020 - 10:23 AM

This discussion is starting to seem really weird to me, like an argument for the sake of argument.

 

It's conceivable that we can get away with half-assing the sterilization step for a particular grain (and I would describe Fractional Sterilization as half-assing the sterilization step), though I've not seen anyone else replicate such an approach successfully yet. It would be interesting to try steaming a popcorn jar and letting it seal like canning preserves. Then set it on a shelf at room temp and observe it for a few weeks. If it never contaminates then it was truly "sterilized." I've done this by accident in the past when I PC'd grain jars that sealed I intended to use later. I didn't get around to it and after a month the jars still showed no sign of anything growing, which suggests they were truly sterilized.

 

 

There's a reason why the concept of "best practices" exists, and for growing fungi on whole grain using a PC to sterilize it is best practices.

 

That is not to say that doing less will fail, it will just have a much higher probability of failing. Fractional sterilization/ just steaming might work, and might work a bunch of times, but IMO it should be relegated to situations where PCing the grain according to industry standards is not possible for whatever reason.

 

And speaking of industry standards, I would be very surprised if any profitable commercial spawn producer steams the grain they use for spawn. They would have a huge incentive to cut costs by switching to a cheaper method of prepping spawn since steaming requires considerably less energy and expensive equipment than pressurizing an industrial retort with dry steam. The most reliable source of best practices for a given process is arguably companies that have significant capital investments in that process. They have to balance the competing incentives of minimizing costs and maximizing success. If they get it wrong they go bankrupt. To my knowledge all commercial spawn producers use retorts to cook their grain under pressure (usually at 29 or 30 psi for retorts).

 

 

This has become an oddly specific discussion about a type of bacterial contaminant that doesn't present problems for us nearly as often as molds, and while bacterial contamination can smell like hot death it's not the acute health hazard that fungal contamination can present (e.g. aflatoxins). I'm not concerned about bacteria as a contaminant since I won't eat the contaminated grain but I'm very concerned about molds since I might breathe the air they're off-gassing mycotoxins and ejecting spores into.

 

Here's a bit of light reading for plant pathologists published by the USDA (and horror for freelance mycologists): Grain Fungal Diseases and Mycotoxin Reference

 

Lots of entries concerning feed and food-grade corn in there, and it's only concerned with fungal diseases (no bacteria or Archaea).

 

 

IMO we should take care that not only do our methods work most if not every time, they should also maximize our safety with regard to exposing us to serious health hazards (i.e., "best practices" are about more than just getting a successful harvest).



#23 FunG

FunG

    Been there, read that.

  • Free Member
  • 1,033 posts

Posted 21 September 2020 - 10:26 AM

Sorry for throwing your thread abit off course oam.

And to correct myself, they wouldn't heat treat poporn because it would pop lol excuse that speculation but it is processed and cleaned in some way that the article did not elaborate on since like I mentioned it is food grade just like brown rice and it does not contain the archaea bacteria "bacillus" otherwise known to me as "wetspot" and one more thing oam....I may be incorrect about which bacterial endospore is found in what grain products so it may not be called "bacillus" but I'm 99.5% certain that's what was the label of the rod shaped bacteria most commonly encountered in improperly pressure cooked jars....mostly happens when someone forgets to vent for 10minutes before capping the outlet valve on their PC and when using whole grains other then brown rice and popcorn.

I am arguing that after a year of using popcorn that I never once encountered "wetspot" and my batches were only steamed for 90minutes.... sorry for repeating myself.

I wish you luck with your agar transfers gt and b+ are both awesome cubensis to work with and it's a good thing you remembered to use a "sterilized" spoon cause that's also a common mistake people make is using a "washed" spoon rather then sterilized and end up cross contaminating everything.

And one thing I have to ask is, do you have a picture of the "wetspot" in the oven jar? Cause I would like to get it identified.... popcorn can rot from to much water but it's not bacteria. There is a difference.... wetspot produces a clear to brown slime around the kernel and smells like a dead body that's been decomposed awhile.

Again sorry for arguing in your thread

Just wanted to say thank you for the informative post TVcausality.... I wouldn't suggest anyone skips out on a pressure cooker but like you said fractional sterilization/steaming never failed in a year of using exclusively popcorn. But one thing I want to point out about fractional sterilization not being on par with industry standards is that commercial mushroom growers would not be using popcorn as spawn anyways due to like you also said the operational costs would be outrages. Not to mention popcorn can serv as a means of propigation to bulk but it only yields half of what other whole grains do so it's not practical for use in a commercial farm.

I very much enjoy the read, peace man.

Edited by FunG, 21 September 2020 - 11:49 AM.


#24 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 21 September 2020 - 11:08 AM

Sorry for throwing your thread abit off course oam.

And to correct myself, they wouldn't heat treat poporn because it would pop lol excuse that speculation but it is processed and cleaned in some way that the article did not elaborate on since like I mentioned it is food grade just like brown rice and it does not contain the archaea bacteria "bacillus" otherwise known to me as "wetspot" and one more thing oam....I may be incorrect about which bacterial endospore is found in what grain products so it may not be called "bacillus" but I'm 99.5% certain that's what was the label of the rod shaped bacteria most commonly encountered in improperly pressure cooked jars....mostly happens when someone forgets to vent for 10minutes before capping the outlet valve on their PC and when using whole grains other then brown rice and popcorn.

I am arguing that after a year of using popcorn that I never once encountered "wetspot" and my batches were only steamed for 90minutes.... sorry for repeating myself.

I wish you luck with your agar transfers gt and b+ are both awesome cubensis to work with and it's a good thing you remembered to use a "sterilized" spoon cause that's also a common mistake people make is using a "washed" spoon rather then sterilized and end up cross contaminating everything.

And one thing I have to ask is, do you have a picture of the "wetspot" in the oven jar? Cause I would like to get it identified.... popcorn can rot from to much water but it's not bacteria. There is a difference.... wetspot produces a clear to brown slime around the kernel and smells like a dead body that's been decomposed awhile.

Again sorry for arguing in your thread


No worries guys. [mention]FunG [/mention] I tossed the oven jar as soon as I saw “the clear to brown slime like substance”. Your description was a little too accurate for comfort and helped me confirm my nightmare.

#25 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 30 September 2020 - 07:06 AM

This is my first above ground magic(truffles under my belt) go at this. I have transferred my Golden Teacher (the one with more growth)and B+ grain spawn to hpoo mix and we are 9 days out with this photo. I went super conservative with this first run to get my feet wet. Any casing advice would be helpful.
I’m also happy to show mycelium growing from the LC’s I made from the dry specimen I took. One is spore water from the rehydrated gills, and the other is spore water and gill tissue.

c034726cdf73d684bfb37adaf38319c1.jpg
768d65e2c8288c5b4b91e8bcda2c06be.jpg
4a91ea47f1d80ba8dca4ea9b68aff037.jpg
61dfaf313b7d83838240b91b22bea580.jpg
c7de9cb92b29e9cdfec3e504e25a1a84.jpg
2ad0bf34e981c0fcb29763b2ddf9eb4d.jpg
6d5408e35284b5f3f4453263600172d3.jpg

Edited by Oam, 30 September 2020 - 07:06 AM.

  • FunG likes this

#26 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 02 October 2020 - 05:45 PM

Update on g2g transfer of GT and B+ from the boil tek group of jars.32fda353040fb231646ccc07b3a2383d.jpg
1d95495059586759d5a740d2c78efd70.jpg

#27 FunG

FunG

    Been there, read that.

  • Free Member
  • 1,033 posts

Posted 02 October 2020 - 07:20 PM

Looking good minus what looks to be coffee ground specs in the jar....

What is that exactly?

The only contaminate I encountered while "steaming" the jars of popcorn was yeast minus trich cause that's common. But yea, yeast was the only contam that popped up in over a year, never had a problem with bacteria.

And you can still use a jar of yeast popcorn cause the mycelium colonizes over it but it causes stress on mycelium which leads to mutations as I found out on several occassions.

Edited by FunG, 02 October 2020 - 07:21 PM.


#28 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 02 October 2020 - 07:29 PM

Looking good minus what looks to be coffee ground specs in the jar....

What is that exactly?

The only contaminate I encountered while "steaming" the jars of popcorn was yeast minus trich cause that's common. But yea, yeast was the only contam that popped up in over a year, never had a problem with bacteria.

And you can still use a jar of yeast popcorn cause the mycelium colonizes over it but it causes stress on mycelium which leads to mutations as I found out on several occassions.

It is indeed spent coffee grounds.

#29 FunG

FunG

    Been there, read that.

  • Free Member
  • 1,033 posts

Posted 02 October 2020 - 07:50 PM

Yea, I wouldn't bother putting spent coffee grounds in with the popcorn....

Maybe you're confused, the addition of coffee is ment to be liquid and used in the grains hydration water.

The grounds (although not recommended) can and do mostly work in a bulk substrate like coir since coir is non nutritious. But beware the types of grounds used, if you want 100% success get the coffee grounds from a commercial vendor, those percolators heat the water hotter then most home brewers which allows more of the nutrients to be leeched out.

You want the least enriched coffee grounds as possible, if they're to rich you'll get contaminates.

And now you know too cause I constantly have to explain coffee grounds.

#30 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 03 October 2020 - 07:02 AM

I know I have a traumatic brain injury but I feel like you are running in circles asking the same questions you asked before with my same response. You beat this horse the first time. I’m just updating thanks.
  • coorsmikey likes this

#31 FunG

FunG

    Been there, read that.

  • Free Member
  • 1,033 posts

Posted 03 October 2020 - 07:50 AM

According to vas from far cry 3 the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again lol

Sorry oam, just want to give you the most accurate advice on a additive for coir that can still be considered as experimental.
I look forward to seeing your results.

Peace mehn
  • Oam likes this

#32 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 14 October 2020 - 07:53 AM

GT got me excited when I woke up this morning. I was anxious about my first time growing magic above ground but this gives me hope.

2f51768cb517e38b46ca7d3301c8c7c4.jpg
  • FunG likes this

#33 FunG

FunG

    Been there, read that.

  • Free Member
  • 1,033 posts

Posted 14 October 2020 - 10:07 AM

Is that the steamed popcorn spawned to what? Looks good.
  • Oam likes this

#34 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 14 October 2020 - 10:44 AM

Is that the steamed popcorn spawned to what? Looks good.

Yes , it’s still the steamed popcorn on hpoo mush compost.
  • FunG likes this

#35 FunG

FunG

    Been there, read that.

  • Free Member
  • 1,033 posts

Posted 14 October 2020 - 11:29 AM

I have some popcorn in the cubboard that I should make a pictorial guide of steaming it in place of using a pressure cooker or I'll be linking your grow thread quite frequently OEM.

Blast the skeptics! Hevans, all of them! Lol
  • Oam likes this

#36 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 17 October 2020 - 05:18 AM

825f9e9803b4e2fe9fe2fbff7d8ae6d4.jpg
d42c10e713b5079732b7ca48b562c468.jpg
fe8fac4ea60dcefa39713442e03edfab.jpg
76d61d9fa6b68fa095372db4b0ff2109.jpg
  • FunG likes this

#37 FunG

FunG

    Been there, read that.

  • Free Member
  • 1,033 posts

Posted 17 October 2020 - 05:21 AM

Looks like you've got yourself a 3.5g (once dry) dose.

That's enough to go see the wizard Oam

And I have to ask one more time, those pictures are from the popcorn that you steamed sterilized and didn't PC correct?
  • Oam likes this

#38 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 17 October 2020 - 05:33 AM

Looks like you've got yourself a 3.5g (once dry) dose.

That's enough to go see the wizard Oam

And I have to ask one more time, those pictures are from the popcorn that you steamed sterilized and didn't PC correct?


Yes, that’s correct. Still the same steamed jars with popcorn. I think I’m ready to put the jars to bulk with this run as my test.

#39 Oam

Oam

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 196 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 17 October 2020 - 10:44 AM

They are currently in the dehydrator. The base of each was cleaned off, cut at the sub line and sampled. The cut pieces were very blue.

3e9e15d8807d289091ed740cf01ecb85.jpg
e578fe8e4e376e766113759330c76e12.jpg

Edited by Oam, 17 October 2020 - 11:51 AM.

  • FunG likes this




Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!