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substrate question


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#1 triphazard636

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 04:53 PM

is the vermiculite necessary when doing coco coir in a monotub? I have a couple jars ready to go and i have plenty of coco but I seem to be out of vermiculite and it’s gonna be a minute before I can get out to pick some up.

#2 coorsmikey

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 06:40 PM

Nope! It's not necessary. Coir only with a decent spawn ratio can get you decent yields.


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#3 triphazard636

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 07:30 PM

thanks!

#4 PJammer24

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 07:38 PM

If I were using coir alone, I would use more coir than usual and the use a 1 to 1 spawn ratio... I would want a thicker substrate to ensure I had an adequate water content for fruiting

#5 pastyoureyes

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 07:05 AM

As said above no, not necessary but I use a little in my substrate now to soak up any excess moisture from hydrating the coir. If I were using dried poo I probably wouldn't use it but I've been using black kow lately which has a bit of moisture of its own.

#6 PJammer24

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 09:31 AM

As said above no, not necessary but I use a little in my substrate now to soak up any excess moisture from hydrating the coir. If I were using dried poo I probably wouldn't use it but I've been using black kow lately which has a bit of moisture of its own.

I use verm in all of my substrate mixes even when I am using well dried hpoo... The verm provides a reservoir of water from which the mushrooms can pull from while fruiting. Even with the verm, a really nice flush can suck most of the available water from the substrate...

 

My most typical substrate mixes are hpoo:straw:verm @ 1:1:0.3-0.5 and hpoo:coir:verm at the same approximate ratios... I eyeball everything so they certainly aren't ever exactly that ratio... I get better results when I include the verm but it is not entirely necessary if all you are looking for is acceptable results.



#7 pastyoureyes

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 11:37 AM

I've not noticed much difference with or without vermiculite not that I've really kept track or measured yields to know. Usually when I buy verm I buy the huge bags so I chuck a couple quarts in just because I have it.

#8 PJammer24

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 12:03 PM

I've not noticed much difference with or without vermiculite not that I've really kept track or measured yields to know. Usually when I buy verm I buy the huge bags so I chuck a couple quarts in just because I have it.

I do the same thing as far as stocking up... IME, without the verm, the substrate block doesn't absorb as much water during a dunk when you are not including the verm which leads to aborts due to lack of available resources. You can potentially mitigate this by using more substrate while maintaining the same surface area allowing for more water to be contained and used by the mushrooms as they fruit. I don't see it as being quite as much of an issue with first flush, it is when it doesn't quite get fully hydrated in between flushes that I see a difference. I just eyeball the verm, sometimes there is more and sometimes less but I have seen a difference between grows where it has been used and grows where it has not...

 

Most recently, i saw a project where there were two runs and the 2nd run did not have as much verm because it can be difficult to find in the area. The second run had substantially less and produced significantly smaller 2nd flush fruits compared to the first run. This was not a controlled experiment and the fact that the first run also used straw, which provides additional nutrients, while the second run used coir which does not... The different mixes likely play a role in this particular example but I have seen it in the past with identical substrate mixes.

 

I also feel like the extra verm in the mix helps to mitigate sitting water at the bottom of the bag/tub since it is often difficult to get all of it out, especially with the bags as it gets caught in the gusseting at the bottom of the bags. Sitting water can lead to contamination by increasing anaerobic conditions. Having bacteria colonize the bottom of the substrate after 2nd flush is not uncommon. I have no empirical evidence that can be verified but I feel like the verm allows the substrate to have a little more absorbancy which leads to less sitting water in the bag... This could just be imagined however since the substrate likely absorbs most of what it can during the dunk itself...

 

It is harder to say when using a decent clone but a decade ago when all of this began for me, I was not using verm and experienced many more aborts than I see now. I do not see many projects that are done with MS these days but when I have, I feel like there were fewer aborts when using the verm... While that is my experience, it means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things due to the ungodly number of genetic combinations possible using MS... I would have to run a controlled experiment using well isolated genetics to say with confidence how much of an impact the verm makes...


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#9 FunG

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 01:11 PM

I'm going to start another argument I just know it..


Spawn plays a role in how much available nutrients there are to mycelium, say you were to use 10 pf cakes to 1brick coir or 10 jars of popcorn to the same amount of coir you'd still probably only get a qp'r dry in weight.

Now if you used hpoo/straw you'd probably walk away with 6-8oz because it's more nutritious to mycelium then just coir.

Coir when used alone is best to be spawned with whole grains like rye/Wbs rather then pf cakea or popcorn since coir is not as nutritious but with wbs..... take a look at the gt picture.....

Results speak for themselves.

So what were you planning on spawning to the coir?

20200224_090721.jpg

I love posting this picture ;)

Also if pjammer didnt already mention it (highly unlikely) genetics determine how nutrition is used by the mycelium. If they're poor genes then they wont make use of the available nutrients as much as mycelium that's either been isolated and tested for its fruiting abilities on agar or a proven clone from ms.

Should have cloned that gt bin in the pic but I didnt have agar supplies.....so yea, you can try for a canopy with Ms or spend the time transfering, fruiting and isolating the perfect Gene's.....which no one really wants to do that's done it in the past but who am I to tell how others feel about the work, I cutt corners lol

Edited by FunG, 17 September 2020 - 01:17 PM.


#10 pastyoureyes

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 11:36 PM

I've not noticed much difference with or without vermiculite not that I've really kept track or measured yields to know. Usually when I buy verm I buy the huge bags so I chuck a couple quarts in just because I have it.


I do the same thing as far as stocking up... IME, without the verm, the substrate block doesn't absorb as much water during a dunk when you are not including the verm which leads to aborts due to lack of available resources. You can potentially mitigate this by using more substrate while maintaining the same surface area allowing for more water to be contained and used by the mushrooms as they fruit. I don't see it as being quite as much of an issue with first flush, it is when it doesn't quite get fully hydrated in between flushes that I see a difference. I just eyeball the verm, sometimes there is more and sometimes less but I have seen a difference between grows where it has been used and grows where it has not...
 
Most recently, i saw a project where there were two runs and the 2nd run did not have as much verm because it can be difficult to find in the area. The second run had substantially less and produced significantly smaller 2nd flush fruits compared to the first run. This was not a controlled experiment and the fact that the first run also used straw, which provides additional nutrients, while the second run used coir which does not... The different mixes likely play a role in this particular example but I have seen it in the past with identical substrate mixes.
 
I also feel like the extra verm in the mix helps to mitigate sitting water at the bottom of the bag/tub since it is often difficult to get all of it out, especially with the bags as it gets caught in the gusseting at the bottom of the bags. Sitting water can lead to contamination by increasing anaerobic conditions. Having bacteria colonize the bottom of the substrate after 2nd flush is not uncommon. I have no empirical evidence that can be verified but I feel like the verm allows the substrate to have a little more absorbancy which leads to less sitting water in the bag... This could just be imagined however since the substrate likely absorbs most of what it can during the dunk itself...
 
It is harder to say when using a decent clone but a decade ago when all of this began for me, I was not using verm and experienced many more aborts than I see now. I do not see many projects that are done with MS these days but when I have, I feel like there were fewer aborts when using the verm... While that is my experience, it means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things due to the ungodly number of genetic combinations possible using MS... I would have to run a controlled experiment using well isolated genetics to say with confidence how much of an impact the verm makes...

Yeah its definitely great for regulating moisture, I have had bacteria due to overly wet substrates and the verm really helps with that. I didnt dunk in my most recent run of tubs just sprayed quite a bit and got my three flushes. I agreed it will help hold moisture during a dunk, another positive.




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