Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Clarification Question on yield parameters and calculation:


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 BrotherDekatessera

BrotherDekatessera

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 September 2020 - 04:51 PM

This is not a "but how much will i get??" question, but more so trying to understand how you guys are calculating.

I have read a lot about counting final dry weight in ratio to how much spawn was put in to the substrate... Either I am missing some underlying context or this makes no sense.

 

I have grown cannabis for a long time. I have never judged my yield agains how much my seeds weighed, or how much soil is in the greenhouse... nor have I ever met anyone that does.  that makes absolutely no sense. Its all about canopy and side wall.. i.e. space. how much sunlit surface area can you create within a given space

same goes for the produce we grow and same goes for the other "active" plants I grow. 

 

what is the cause for judging yield by initial amount of grain or whatever was blended in to the substrate. 

 

that would indicate that in a say 66qt tub, one would get a drastically different yield having spawned it from one qt of grain, than if they spawned it from 8 qts of grain.

 

this sounds like bullshit to me. especially since I see the same people saying that on various forums also saying "the only difference in spawn ratio is the length of time it takes to colonize"

 

if the entire surface of the bottom of a 66qt tub is colonized, there is no reason why it wouldnt produce the same amount of mushrooms wether it got to that 100% colonization via x amount or y amount of grains.

 

am I missing something or am I just uncovering one of the things that you learn is bullshit internet mythology along the way?


Edited by BrotherDekatessera, 23 September 2020 - 04:55 PM.


#2 coorsmikey

coorsmikey

    Passenger

  • App Administrator
  • 7,375 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 23 September 2020 - 06:01 PM

Where would you think the weight and mass of the mushrooms (minus water) come from then? The air? Unlike how some plants can actually pull nitrogen from the air mushrooms get their mass from proteins and amino acids. If you have a substrate that is basically non nutritious that works more like a reservoir for water, the nutrition will come from the spawn. If there is low ratio of spawn the mushroom do not pull energy from the sun or air or NPK. Of course if one were use a substrate that was nutritious then the spawn ratio is not as important for yield as it is inoculation points to speed up the colonization and outrun competition.

Think it might be helpful to not think of fungi as plants. Also to consider spawn as a seed is like something how we would explain it to a small child. If you really want to compare anything to a seed then the spore is much closer to that in comparison. Just as you wouldn't judge your produce yield based on a seed you wouldn't want judge the yield coming from spores on the aesthetics of the print or syringe they arrived in. But with a seed, the flower is fertilized by pollen to make up the genetics of the resulting seed. A single spore does not contain the whole genetic sequence to reproduce and needs to mate with another germinated spore to be considered fertilized if you are going to think of them like a seed. However like seeds, genetics do play a role in the yield and quality of the fruit to be produce as does environmental variables. Same with spores but you would not judge the genetics from how many spores the parent produced.

If the whole spawn ratio thing was bullshit then we would all be scraping spores on tubs of wet vermiculite expecting big bags of mushrooms. Give it a shot and show us how we are just waisting time creating extra steps (the OMC/Internet does like extra steps to make us feel like we are growing something) At the same time there is some sort of bullshit add along the way but to summarize. Only Non Nutritious Substrates need a high spawn ration cuz the spawn is the nutrients, in most cases grain is commonly used. In situation where the substrate is nutritious, then inoculation points is important rather nutrition for speedy colonization before other bacteria and spores have a chance to take hold.

Edited by coorsmikey, 23 September 2020 - 08:19 PM.

  • onediadem, Arathu, jkdeth and 1 other like this

#3 jkdeth

jkdeth

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 2,530 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 23 September 2020 - 06:29 PM

Yep, you need to learn to think differently about mushrooms.

First throw out everything you know about cannabis. Nothing applies.

In the most common grow for cubensis the substrate is a coir/verm mix, that's nearly sterile and almost free of nutrients. The spawn is the nutrient. Spawning to the substrate provides a larger surface area and water availability.

High spawn rates, higher nutrition, and faster colonization. Fast colonization is important because a fully colonized substrate is pretty contamination resistant. (At least to new contamination).

I use 1:2 spawn to substrate, in six quart tubs, some discussion here in the came up with 1:3 as the "sweet spot" and 1:4 still acceptable.

So for instance say I change that to 1:1. Still works, but now I have water issues. Probably a great, fast first flush, but may be a "one and done" tub, with insignificant flushes afterward.

Say I change it to 1:6, now I have plenty of water, but a lot less nutrient available, plus a longer colonization time, risking contamination.

Now that doesn't take into consideration providing good growth conditions. Say for I do a shifty job with the 1:2 but a great job with the 1:6, its entirely possible for the 1:6 to turn out the better yield.

So I wandering a bit, but in conclusion,honestly I wouldn't worry to much about those numbers, they're an estimated reference number, if you're grows aren't doing that rate, you have something to improve upon, if they're better you're doing great.
  • onediadem and Boebs like this

#4 BrotherDekatessera

BrotherDekatessera

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 September 2020 - 06:34 PM

Where would you think the weight and mass of the mushrooms (minus water) come from then? The air? Unlike how some plants can actually pull nitrogen from the air mushrooms get their mass from proteins and amino acids. If you have a substrate that is basically non nutritious that works more like a reservoir for water, the nutrition will come from the spawn. If there is low ratio of spawn the mushroom do not pull energy from the sun or air or NPK. Of course if one were use a substrate that was nutritious then the spawn ratio is not as important for yield as it is inoculation points to speed up the colonization and outrun competition.

 

Think it my helpful to not think of fungi as plants. Also to consider spawn as a seed is like something how we would explain it to a small child. If you really want to compare anything to a seed then the spore is much closer to that in comparison. Just as you wouldn't judge your produce yield based on a seed you wouldn't want judge the yield coming from spores on the aesthetics of the print or syringe they arrived in. But with a seed, the flower is fertilized by pollen to make up the genetics of the resulting seed. A single spore does not contain the whole genetic sequence to reproduce and needs to mate with another germinated spore to be considered fertilized if you are going to think of them like a seed. However like seeds, genetics do play a role in the yield and quality of the fruit to be produce as does environmental variables. Same with spores but you would not judge the genetics from how many spores the parent produced.

 

If the whole spawn ratio thing was bullshit then we would all be scraping spores on tubs of wet vermiculite expecting big bags of mushrooms. Give it a shot and show us how we are just waisting time creating extra steps (the OMC/Internet does like extra steps to make us feel like we are growing something) At the same time there is some sort of bullshit add along the way but to summarize. Only Non Nutritious Substrates need a high spawn ration cuz the spawn is the nutrients, in most cases grain is commonly used. In situation where the substrate is nutritious, then inoculation points is important rather nutrition for speedy colonization before other bacteria and spores have a chance to take

NPK is definitely bullshit, that I know full well,  but thats another story for another day.

 

so basically what you are saying in direct reference to my question is that the grains are doubling as both nutrients in the tub and a colonization "starter" before the tub is spawned. that actually makes sense. having seen people using both nutritious and non subs and both relying on the same calculation is what obscured the context.

 

which raises the question of, how often is the yield even truly being calculated against an actually spent substrate? obviously theres no simple answer to that, but it seems to me that most peoples substrates (including my own) fail to contam' or to other issues long before the nutritional aspect of the substrate wears thin.

 

which in turn raises the question of, if we actually could push it to depleted regularly, what would be the median yield per spawn. 

 

also makes me wonder how to perpetuate that somehow? i havent "fed nutrients" to cannabis plants in somewhere between twelve and fifteen years. our soil provides what the plants need. both indoor and out. there has to be a way of growing mushrooms indoors that relies on a self replenishing nutritious substrate. of course things go wrong, I not saying I have never scrapped a pot or fixed the soil in a planter box, but its a very rare thing and is the exception not the rule. 

 

many questions to answer. so much room for this field to grow. it reminds me of the archaic asshat days of cannabis when people were using soilless mix, bottled nutrients and hydro to grow, and actually believed it was the right way to do it. so obviously wrong, yet no better option being presented. 

 

tbh this is part of what makes psychadelic mycology so interesting, the whole thing is still barely getting used to wearing a diaper and not even crawling yet. so much space ahead.


  • onediadem likes this

#5 BrotherDekatessera

BrotherDekatessera

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 September 2020 - 06:44 PM

Yep, you need to learn to think differently about mushrooms.

First throw out everything you know about cannabis. Nothing applies.

In the most common grow for cubensis the substrate is a coir/verm mix, that's nearly sterile and almost free of nutrients. The spawn is the nutrient. Spawning to the substrate provides a larger surface area and water availability.

High spawn rates, higher nutrition, and faster colonization. Fast colonization is important because a fully colonized substrate is pretty contamination resistant. (At least to new contamination).

I use 1:2 spawn to substrate, in six quart tubs, some discussion here in the came up with 1:3 as the "sweet spot" and 1:4 still acceptable.

So for instance say I change that to 1:1. Still works, but now I have water issues. Probably a great, fast first flush, but may be a "one and done" tub, with insignificant flushes afterward.

Say I change it to 1:6, now I have plenty of water, but a lot less nutrient available, plus a longer colonization time, risking contamination.

Now that doesn't take into consideration providing good growth conditions. Say for I do a shifty job with the 1:2 but a great job with the 1:6, its entirely possible for the 1:6 to turn out the better yield.

So I wandering a bit, but in conclusion,honestly I wouldn't worry to much about those numbers, they're an estimated reference number, if you're grows aren't doing that rate, you have something to improve upon, if they're better you're doing great.

There is no reason to toss out plant knowledge, because if Im understanding you correctly you are saying the same as the other reply, and talking about a nutrient+water= growth equation, which is just as valid with plants. The only difference being that we wouldnt calculate yield by it, because a nutrient lacking soil would be a fail and effect yield, but it would never be the metric by which to measure yield, simply one of the variables in a suitable grow environment. 

 

the piece I was missing was that the grain is considered the nutrient. I have read a lot and I have grown mush successfully before, but I didnt have that context for the grain being a nutrient.. which makes the whole thing make a lot more sense.

 

though I will say that perhaps my assumption that the CVG was nutritious was based in plant experience, where the soil provides the nutrients. without context on the grain I assumed the substrate was nutritious.



#6 coorsmikey

coorsmikey

    Passenger

  • App Administrator
  • 7,375 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 23 September 2020 - 06:44 PM

Check out BE or Biological Efficiency. That may be the rabbit hole you're seeking to dive in to.

 

YIELD-ANDBIOLOGICAL-EFFICIENCY.png
Mushroom Yield and Biological Efficiency

Mushroom yield and biological efficiency are important parameters that need to be understood and optimized by the mushroom cultivator.

When you first start out growing mushrooms, you might not be all that concerned about how many mushrooms you get.

At first, just getting some nice looking fruits is a huge success!

But as you get more proficient at growing mushrooms- and especially if you want to turn your hobby into a business– you should be increasingly concerned about how many mushrooms you can grow with the substrate you have.

pink-oysteres-after-harvest.jpg

Pink Oyster mushrooms after harvest, ready for the frying pan!

What is Mushroom Yield?

Put simply, mushroom yield is the amount of fresh mushrooms you can produce with your space, substrate and other constraints. The larger your yield, the more cost effective your grow.

Yield should be determined using the total weight of fresh mushrooms from all flushes until the substrate block is completely spent. You may find that the yield for your mushrooms can vary wildly between flushes, which are why using the total yield is a better indicator of performance.

That being said, it is sometimes better to go for a larger yield on the first flush, and future flushes may have diminishing returns.

What is Biological Efficiency?

Biological efficiency, often referred to as BE, is simply a way to calculate the effectiveness of a mushroom strain and substrate combination when growing mushrooms. It is a measure that was originally developed by the button mushroom industry in order to grade certain strains of mushrooms.

By definition:, 100% biological efficiency occurs when 1 lb of fresh mushrooms is harvested from 1 lb of dry substrate, over multiple flushes.

BE=(weight of harvest / weight of dry substrate)x100%

Because the calculation uses the weight of dry substrate, it is possible- and actually quite common – to achieve a biological efficiency greater than 100%.

The calculation uses the weight of all mushrooms harvested from a substrate over multiple flushes.

The fact that the calculation uses the dry weight of the substrate throws many growers off, since much of the weight of a fruiting block or straw log will be water.

Usually it easier to weigh your fruiting container after it has been inoculated and compare that number to weight of fresh mushrooms harvested.

Although this is not technically “biological efficiency”, using the “wet-weight” it is still a useful measure for mushroom growers to quantify the efficiency of their grows.

An Example of Calculating Biological Efficieny

Let’s say that you are able to harvest 2lbs of King Oyster mushrooms from a 5lb supplemented sawdust fruiting block.

Each fruiting block contains 1.4 liters of water, which weighs about 3.1 lbs.

Therefore, the total dry weight of the substrate is 1.9lbs.

In this case the BE would be 105% (2lbs/1.9lbs), and the wet-weight efficiency is 40% (2lbs/4lbs). These numbers are vastly different in magnitude, but are representing essentially the same thing.

One reason that true BE is important to understand, however, is because this number is what is commonly reported by spawn producers as a way to grade certain strains of mushrooms.

You can use this number to predict how many mushrooms you can grow for a given weight of bulk substrate.

king-oysters-after-harvest.jpg

A nice harvest of King Oyster Mushrooms. 

Expected Yields for Different Mushrooms

Different mushrooms, and different strains of the same species, will have a wide range of potential biological efficiencies. Typically, Oyster mushrooms which grow well on straw, such as Pearl Oysters and Blue Oysters have a high BE.

More delicate mushrooms, such as yellow oysters and slower growing mushrooms, such as Reishi, tend to have lower BE values.

Let’s look at some different mushrooms and their BE’s, and expected yields.

  • 9169635_orig.jpg
  • BLUE OYSTER
    B.E.:100-200%
    Yield: 6-12 lbs from a 25 lb straw log, up to 3 lbs from a 5 lb supplemented sawdust fruiting block.
  • a-sea-of-kings.jpg
  • KING OYSTER
    B.E.:100-150%
    Yield: 6 – 8 lbs from a 25 lb straw log, up to 2.5 lbs from a supplemented sawdust fruiting block.
  • 1668938_orig.jpg
  • PINK OYSTER
    B.E.:100-170%
    Yield: 6-10 lbs from a 25 lb straw log, 2.5 lbs from a supplemented sawdust fruiting block.
  • 6580756_orig.jpg
  • LIONS MANE
    B.E.:90-140%
    Yield:Up to 2.5 lbs from supplemented sawdust fruiting blocks.
  • Untitled-design-8.jpg
  • REISHI
    B.E.:80-120%
    Yield:1.5-2 lbs on a supplemented sawdust fruiting block.
  • yellow_oyster_large.jpg
  • YELLOW OYSTER
    B.E.:50-90%
    Yield: 4-8 lbs from a 25 lbs fruiting block, up to 1.5 lbs from a supplemented sawdust fruiting block.
  • shiitake-mushrooms-yield.jpg
  • SHIITAKE
    B.E.:100-200%
    Yield:1.5-2.5 lbs on a supplemented sawdust fruiting block.
How to Increase Mushroom Yield

There are a number of different ways to increase your yield and make your mushroom harvest more fruitful, more efficient and more profitable.

1. Choosing a High Performing Strain

The strain you choose for your grow can have a huge impact on yield.

Different strains within the same species of mushrooms can produce vastly different results. Think for a second about the mushroom life-cycle. A mushroom culture starts when the hyphae of two compatible germinating spores mate and start to grow out as mycelium.

This means that when starting a grow from spores, there are untold gazillions of different possible combinations or “strains”, all with minute genetic differences that can have an impact on yield.

Luckily, top-performing strains have been carefully developed and optimized over the years to produce good and reliable yields. These strains are preserved as cultures, which are commercially available.

Of all the factors involved in trying to maximize yield, choosing a good producing commercial strain is probably the most important. 

king-oyster-mushroom-on-agar.jpg

Different strains will have different yield characteristics. 

2. Supplementation

Supplementation is the process of adding a nitrogen rich nutrient to the mushroom substrate in order to increase the potential yield. This works by providing the mycelium with a larger nutritional base in which to support stronger mycelium and produce larger, healthier fruits.

Supplementation is usually achieved by adding bran to the substrate, typically wheat bran or oat bran.

Adding too much supplementation, however, will actually have detrimental effects. With increased supplementation comes the increased probability of contamination, and thus diminishing returns on your yield.

Use supplementation carefully, starting small and increasing slowly to achieve optimum results.

In a way, increasing your spawn:bulk substrate ratio is a way to increase your nitrogen content, and is a form of supplementation. Again, too much spawn will eventually lead to diminishing returns. You need to find your sweet spot.

king-oysters-at-different-stages-of-harv

King Oyster Mushrooms harvested at different stages of growth. 

3. Timing Your Harvest

When you choose to pick your mushrooms obviously has a huge effect on overall yield and biological efficiency.

Picking mushrooms when they are small, such as Agaricus species in the button stage, will decrease your BE. Picking mushrooms late will allow for a larger overall yield, but the quality of the mushrooms may be less due to the fruits being past their prime.

Every cultivator should be able to find the sweet spot for when to harvest their mushrooms in order to achieve the best yield for the desired quality. The right time to harvest mushrooms will depend highly on the species of mushrooms, and the different ways you plan to store your mushrooms before consumption.

 

 


Edited by coorsmikey, 23 September 2020 - 06:51 PM.

  • onediadem and TVCasualty like this

#7 BrotherDekatessera

BrotherDekatessera

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 September 2020 - 06:47 PM

 

 

there has to be a way of growing mushrooms indoors that relies on a self replenishing nutritious substrate. 

 

 

 

really though. 

nature does it. 

if it didnt mycelium wouldnt be so prolific. think about the huge mycelial masses we know of. no one is out in the forest protecting it from contam and feeding it. its not like mycelium is some rare think that pops up occasionally then dies. there has to be a way



#8 BrotherDekatessera

BrotherDekatessera

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 September 2020 - 06:54 PM

 

There is no reason to toss out plant knowledge, because if Im understanding you correctly you are saying the same as the other reply, and talking about a nutrient+water= growth equation, which is just as valid with plants. The only difference being that we wouldnt calculate yield by it, because a nutrient lacking soil would be a fail and effect yield, but it would never be the metric by which to measure yield, simply one of the variables in a suitable grow environment. 

 

 

 

 

To elaborate on what I was getting at:

 

If we are measuring yield by nutrient, than we are essentially saying "we suck at feeding mycelial growth and need better substrate tek" and are okay with that. we are basically using our failure at substrate construction as a metric. Something about that screams broken

 

On the plant side no one says well my soil tech absolutely sucks so Im just gonna measure my yields against my own failure.. no one ever anywhere would take that grower seriously.  if you are growing, a nutritious soil that feeds your plants is mandatory.. if you cant handle that, you dont get to change how you judge yields to make it seem better. yield is based on space and light, and if you cant cut it, step your soil tech up. 

 

Like I said above, this field is in infancy and there is so much to explore and upgrade.


Edited by BrotherDekatessera, 23 September 2020 - 07:01 PM.


#9 coorsmikey

coorsmikey

    Passenger

  • App Administrator
  • 7,375 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 23 September 2020 - 06:57 PM

 

 

 

there has to be a way of growing mushrooms indoors that relies on a self replenishing nutritious substrate. 

 

 

 

really though. 

nature does it. 

if it didnt mycelium wouldnt be so prolific. think about the huge mycelial masses we know of. no one is out in the forest protecting it from contam and feeding it. its not like mycelium is some rare think that pops up occasionally then dies. there has to be a way

 

There is! Its just more efficient to spend that time and effort on better species such as woodlovers. There just so much literal bullshit you can feed cubes to realize that you would be better off starting of fresh or going with something that the mycelium natural life cycle better suits the concept. We feed our woodlovers year after year for continued flushes. 


  • onediadem and PJammer24 like this

#10 BrotherDekatessera

BrotherDekatessera

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 September 2020 - 07:00 PM

 

Check out BE or Biological Efficiency. That may be the rabbit hole you're seeking to dive in to.

 

 

 

thanks!!!



#11 jkdeth

jkdeth

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 2,530 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 23 September 2020 - 07:45 PM

Sorry. This is nonsense.

As long as you think you can compare it to plants, you won't learn anything.

Infancy? I don't how long home growing of cubensis has been around. I've only been involved about 25 years. But I do know of cultivated outdoor beds from the 70s. Indoor growing has been evolved a lot in the last 25 years.

Experimenting is great. But 99 percent of anything you can try has been done.

[/quote]

To elaborate on what I was getting at:

If we are measuring yield by nutrient, than we are essentially saying "we suck at feeding mycelial growth and need better substrate tek" and are okay with that. we are basically using our failure at substrate construction as a metric. Something about that screams broken.

On the plant side no one says well my soil tech absolutely sucks so Im just gonna measure my yields against my own failure.. no one ever anywhere would take that grower seriously. if you are growing, a nutritious soil that feeds your plants is mandatory.. if you cant handle that, you dont get to change how you judge yields to make it seem better. yield is based on space and light, and if you cant cut it, step your soil tech up.

Like I said above, this field is in infancy and there is so much to explore and upgrade.[/quote]
  • onediadem, TVCasualty and Arathu like this

#12 coorsmikey

coorsmikey

    Passenger

  • App Administrator
  • 7,375 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 23 September 2020 - 08:12 PM

Would now be a good time to toss in another factor to consider on soil and plant yields? Mycorrhiza - Wikipedia

We can mention the symbiotic relationship to some mushrooms that cannot grow without plants a lil later?


Edited by coorsmikey, 23 September 2020 - 08:14 PM.

  • onediadem, Boebs and BrotherDekatessera like this

#13 Boebs

Boebs

    Psychonaut

  • VIP
  • 990 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 23 September 2020 - 08:23 PM

Always fun to see the odd color grass where fairy rings of large mushrooms grow. You know the mycelium is doing something to the roots lol.
I should take a few pictures for examples :)

#14 BrotherDekatessera

BrotherDekatessera

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 September 2020 - 11:37 PM

Always fun to see the odd color grass where fairy rings of large mushrooms grow. You know the mycelium is doing something to the roots lol.
I should take a few pictures for examples :)

interesting.



#15 BrotherDekatessera

BrotherDekatessera

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 September 2020 - 11:39 PM


Experimenting is great. But 99 percent of anything you can try has been done.

[/quote]

 

thats what hydro/chem cannabis "growers" said twenty years ago too, they thought they had it figured out and nothing could be improved upon. their methods are now considered a joke.


  • coorsmikey likes this

#16 BrotherDekatessera

BrotherDekatessera

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 September 2020 - 11:40 PM

Would now be a good time to toss in another factor to consider on soil and plant yields? Mycorrhiza - Wikipedia

We can mention the symbiotic relationship to some mushrooms that cannot grow without plants a lil later?

can't grow anything even remotely resembling organic plants without mycorrizha.

 

they are the workhorse and neural network of your soil environment.

 

which is part of my point, what we are doing with pasteurized artificial substrates is essentially what the ancient asshats of the embarrassing 80s/90s indoor scene were doing to cannabis plants with hydro and soilless mixes.

 

the assumption that part of nature cant be handled naturally is borderline insane. yet thats what they all said, oh that cant be done CAUSE CONTAM, BRUH ... here we are twenty years later proving harvest after harvest that the healthiest plants most resistant to the almighty CONTAM, BRUH! are actually the least sterile in the the most wildcard chaos of living soil. and that soil is ran by the myc. so I'm not about to just accept that somehow the reverse isnt true. know what I mean?

 

"things that survive in the wild cant survive in wild conditions despite being absurdly hardy in totally wildcard outdoor environments with no human help" is just a silly presumption that we already disproved beyond a reasonable doubt with the cultivation of other things, such as cannabis, and it seems to me the entire "science" of substrate is based on exactly that. 

 

also telling someone to ignore nature cause mushrooms are so special that what applies to the rest of  nature doesnt apply to them sounds like someone stuck in dogma. sorry to him, but to think that soil science has nothing to do with mycelium indicates an elementary school understanding of soil in the first place. as you pointed out above. 


Edited by BrotherDekatessera, 23 September 2020 - 11:52 PM.


#17 coorsmikey

coorsmikey

    Passenger

  • App Administrator
  • 7,375 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 24 September 2020 - 10:21 AM

Please don't take me wrong in the sense that mycology cannot be improved on. I am only attempting to explain that the spawn theory is not complete bullshit. But to add to your last post. Most of what you read and all the videos we see on cultivation, at least on forums and social media are geared so that basically anyone can cultivate regardless of their education level. Its simple concepts designed so that most anyone can cultivate without expensive high tech labs. Even though I see folks feeling like a mad scientist because they sanitized their bathroom with lysol and are operating a pressure cooker on their hot plate sitting on the back of a toilet. Yes a bit of exaggeration, but the main stream OMC guidelines are meant to be simple so everyone can do it cuz of " Cantam Bruh". Which is exactly that, an elementary school understanding.

 

Now In defense of that same understanding I will say that I know several very educated growers that have done a lot of advanced experimentation with successful results, years later to return back to the same elementary standards because it works so well with minimal time, effort and expense. I have been cultivating  20+ years and have done some pretty elaborate set ups and have played with engineered substrates and such. I might even say there has been great success' along with a lot failure to learn from. I can put a lot of work in on what I would consider an advance cultivation technique to the point  I feel I am maxing out the full potential of yield and quality. Or can simply do the easiest most elementary set up requiring little resources and effort sacrificing a little from the from the BE. I suppose what I getting at is that I can do a fancy scientific mad scientist grow spending lots of money on lighting, climate control tech and substate supplements and get nice canopies of good mushroom or I can  skip all that fancy stuff and do the most simplest elementary style grow without the extra consumption of resources and get canopies of good mushrooms. I will most likely continue to advance my skills toward the the science of getting the most mushrooms I can as fast as I can while requiring the least amount of energy.


  • onediadem likes this

#18 PJammer24

PJammer24

    Archetype Novice

  • OG VIP
  • 2,369 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 24 September 2020 - 11:01 AM

Something that caught my eye throughout this conversation is a misunderstanding by OP of the difficulties involved with growing mushrooms indoors rather than outdoors. It seems to me that OP believes it more difficult to cultivate outdoors with all of the variables involved than indoors. In reality, contamination becomes more of an issue when growing indoors where there is less fresh air and where the mycelium does not have a symbiotic relationship with surrounding organisms... There are fewer steps and fewer risk factors with outdoor grows than indoor grows in most cases.

 

Also, I have seen much better yields from fuller flushes and substrate that remains healthy over more flushes when using a higher spawn ratio. I think that most people have had similar experiences. In old school methodology where one is fruiting from cased grain, the only nutrient sources is the grain. This is also essentially the concept behind PF Tek


  • onediadem and Arathu like this

#19 onediadem

onediadem

    Insidious Drivel

  • OG VIP
  • 16,397 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 25 September 2020 - 01:08 AM

 

Always fun to see the odd color grass where fairy rings of large mushrooms grow. You know the mycelium is doing something to the roots lol.
I should take a few pictures for examples :)

interesting.

 

I lived on a piece of property that had the most wonderful 10' fairy ring pop up every year under a massive cedar tree. I never noticed a difference in the grass where it grew. Interesting indeed!



#20 Arathu

Arathu

    Dirtmaker

  • OG VIP
  • 6,294 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 26 September 2020 - 07:56 AM

Well.....seems to me in passing thought, and aside from a small number of folks that are interested in the pure science of it all (which I'm sure is why were talking about it), that measuring and calculating efficiencies and other statistics tends to be more for people that are in business.......which could land folks in quite a bit of hot water depending on where you are and if we think about it in that sense. That is my first impression when someone asks about "efficiencies" and "yields".....I hear a business manager or investors moaning about their precious returns and quarterly results.....but that's just me.....

 

Personally I could care less what the biological efficiency, the BE as it's called, of a substrate is as I have no investors, board of directors, or boss for that matter and I'm NOT in the mushroom business nor do I have sales results.....Then again I'm growing food, medicine, and making dirt for myself and family..........

 

If I had a grant and a proper laboratory I might consider working on such studies. Right now it is interesting to see what the same strain of shiitake is doing in oak vs maple logs side by side, maitake will be next, but again I'm eating them......

 

Horse shit from the fox hunter's woods is free and rye berries are way under a $1.00/lb......logs and wood substrates can be had for nothing more than some manual labor.

 

But what people charge for a spore print or syringe is kinda interesting though....at least IMHO

 

My own experiences have proven to me that high spawn ratio's work VERY well for growing mushrooms fast (relatively speaking and depending upon species of course) and healthy....I know this from doing it...please show us some examples of your grows that would cause you to have such concerns in the first place.....have you grown some fungi on purpose? If not then PF Tek is a great place to start with a minimal investment....Or are you just intellectually curious about the subject? If the latter is the case I'd suggest diving into the vaults here for a couple of months, get/study some of the classic cultivation books/manuals, and especially perhaps grow some mushrooms yourself .....

 

What we are doing with pasteurized and sterilized substrates is ENSURING (as best as possible) that the targeted species of fungus IS THE ONE that colonizes and fruits from our substrates. In fact many of us start that work on agar of various recipes and attempt to advance the organism from there on.That's the point in my views of it. It also seems to me that these techniques work like a charm if/when I compared the results to native cow pies and road apples. I don't think I've ever seen a wild canopy of cubensis in the outback of Florida, Texas, or any other tropical environment personally. I have, however, seen some outdoor and indoor canopies growing from pasteurized "artificial" ass-hat bulk substrates though. In fact both dung lovers and woodlovers can be observed doing this..... I've tried (with very limited success to date) by-passing all of these ass-hat methods and techniques and just growing all natural....and it works just like  out in the wild.....SOMETIMES you get a mushroom or four that you might be interested in.....but usually one of the local native species "wins"...... 

 

As always these are just my own opinions and observations.......I speak not for management, the network, or any political parties what so ever........ 

 

Thanks and welcome to Mycotopia........there's plenty to learn here....................... unless of course you already know it all......which is also cool.....

 

We LOVE mushroom porn!

 

:cool:

 

Peace yo!

 

A

 

 






Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!