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Small Scale Spawning - GT & TC


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#1 Freaky

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 02:21 PM

As I am slowly easing myself back into the hobby I prefer to work on smaller scales usually cutting things in halves or quarter.  If things go well, I'll still find satisfaction in the outcome and if things go bad or contam I've saved time and materials and possibly won't shed tears (or as many tears).

 

I prefer whole grain brown rice or WBR - it's fast prep and can be easily steam sterilized if no PC (like the below jars) or it can be PC'd also. It's always been quick to colonize(for me) and it's easy to shake.  I've always thought of WBR as the best option for a "starter" grain or for people who don't want to do BRF cakes anymore and want to try grains but don't want all the prep work that some grains need before they can be sterilized.

 

Small scale also - 4 half pints = 1 quart so I prefer to load wide mouth half pints and get them colonized as quickly as possible. I also like the twist top plastic containers which equal out to about pint size if completely full.  I put about 1.5 - 1.75 cups of WBR in each of these.  So 2 come close to equaling a quart but not quite. 

 

Multispore syringes of TC (treasure coast) and GT (golden teacher) were inoculated on 10/18 to steam sterilized whole grain brown rice. I prepare my rice by rinsing in hot top water bringing water to boil on stove while I rinse - once water is boiling dump in grain, stir, set timer for 12 minutes - I don't cover and turn heat down so it's a light rolling boil and stir often. Rinse with cold water very well and drain very well. 

TC WBR 10-18.jpg

TC colonized.jpg

GT WBR 10-18.jpg

GT colonized.jpg

 

I use all kinds of jar lid styles but for these I used one hole in center covered with micropore tape (provides a label too). To inoculate meant I had to remove and lift the lid in the SAB to inject the spores and since they are two piece lids I just tape across so when I lift the lid both pieces lift together and stay together.  It's an old trick I learned here. 

 

These colonized fairly quickly for MS and have been done for about 5 days I just couldn't get around to spawning until today. 

 

I mainly use horse manure and straw for bulk substrates. I am not a fan of vermiculite and I won't be using vermiculite now or moving forward unless I find I absolutely need it as a cut in my bulk. I am also going to try non-cased bulks - but if I find my subs are suffering or the pins or fruiting conditions are not doing well I may have to case.

 

To keep things simple and small scale (like the title says) I'll be using straight coir and worm castings - half a brick of coir with 1 cup of castings hyrdrated and mixed with 2.5 quarts of boiling water. Mixed well and hydrated for 1 hour. Then loaded into quart jars loosely covered with foil to pasteurize in oven for 2 hours. Ended up with 4 quarts and a half because I eyeballed the half brick of coir.

Coir-Castings.jpg

 

Small scale also means I will be spawning to small tubs. Dub Tubs are my preferred and I automate mine when they go to fruiting using air pump with tubing on a timer. These are 6qt sterilite tubs and I will add the top tub once it's colonized and ready to fruit.

 

I do not use plastic inside my tubs though I may if side pinning becomes a major problem. I don't think it will and these are small enough it won't matter much.  

 

When I spawn my grain to my substrate I layer and mix within different levels of the tub. Grain always goes in first on bottom with small amount of the bulk coir/casting mix just enough to coat the grains and level them out in the bottom. About 1/2 inch on bottom in these tubs today using 1 of the half pints with 1/2 of coir/castings. Next 2 of the half pints are crumbled and mixed with 1 quart of castings and leveled out. My leveling skills have suffered and I didn't get these as even as I used to.  Practice will make perfect later on (I hope). Final 4th half pint is then crumbled and evenly placed as a top layer with minimal to no mixing in the mixed layer below. It's like frosting my prior layer mix on a cake. That is leveled then last half of quart jar of castings/coir is leveled but left fluffy on top. Today I added the leftover half quart in the bowl to this tub to give a thicker top bulk layer. I don't like this too much because it's possible it won't colonize from the bottom layer if it is too thick. 

TC spawned 10-31.jpg

 

The GT tub had a bit less spawn than the TC's but were built in a similar way as above (the above is how I always spawned mixed and layered in tubs) but with the TC's I mixed 1 jar with 1 quart of coir/castings on bottom then added the half of the last quart on top and leveled - because these are small tubs it creates a small layer of bulk sub the mycelium can easily colonize (or so I hope). Next is solid layer of 2nd jar crumbled and evenly spread and kept thick and even as I can (I didn't do this well at all) and the last half quart of the coir/castings is then laid on top of the grain layer.

GT spawned 10-31.jpg

 

Lids are snapped on and labeled and I wrap each tub in a large black trash bag like a blanket ( I don't open them I just fold the bag around) and stack them. I'll check them in a week just to make sure they're not green or anything. Hopefully be fully or at least 80% colonized in a week. 

 

Oh, my bottom tubs, I drill 3 holes in the handle ends right above the sub level and cover with micropore tape. Depending on humidity or moisture level I can easily remove if I need more air during fruiting.

 

Hopefully these go well but of course only time will tell. 


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#2 fahtster

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Posted 01 November 2020 - 06:25 PM

Hey freaky! How’s it going? I like your small scale stuff. I like the laymix.. lmk how that goes for ya.

I’ve been doing really small scale stuff too and it’s been working great.. nice way to quickly get clone material or some spores. I do jelly jars of grain that I colonize and use for grain liquid culture to inoculate qts with.. here’s a bunch of PE, RW, PFRS, CRS glc jars (I suppose this qualifies as small scale lol)

372FA9B4-45A0-4438-9286-BAE1FE194091.jpeg

The lids I use (as you May know) are triple layer tyvek where about ~50% of the tyvek is open so I can dry cultures out if I want or tape up about 95% of that open area while grains are colonizing (the other area is silicone injection port). In that pic, the ones with the exposed tyvek are being dried out for long term storage... anyway, after I retrieve the liquid culture from the jelly jars for the quarts, I leave the tyvek open and let the water that is inevitably left in the jar (about 4ml) because it stuck to the grain) dry up and retape up to 95% and let the grains reconsolidate with myc and spawn that to CV in either tall 1/2 pints or small ziplock containers... waste no grains! (Every time I make one of these containers I yell that at the top of my lungs like he-man)

550D631B-B666-4214-94A5-B5E5DF300355.jpeg . 306A55DE-E084-48CD-8150-4269958AA99A.jpeg . 40A4D606-B2A8-42FA-83D6-CC5653677DEA.jpeg
85319F57-7474-44D5-BB5D-0D72C0E5B3A5.jpeg . 1F59BDC5-09B1-4721-88F8-BCB265E4863E.jpeg .

Once the jars are colonized, I throw them in a ziplock (with the appropriate amount of syringe holes poked in them) with some wet perlite to fruit.. similar to this one

D4A633AF-0689-47E1-8367-C4BB28B0B582.jpeg .

Or if the container/sub is big enough and fits in a ziplock, I’ll skip the perlite

B652BEAF-DF08-4D31-83F2-54FE47EC70B0.jpeg

Here I had two qts of PE and I wanted to test the culture and casing strategies so I mixed 1/2 qt @ 1:2 with CV and cased with jiffy mix at varying depths (one was had 1/2 a layer of CV with the jiffy) Into 4 glad containers.. had two 1/4” holes covered with MPT in the lids

CACAB953-6C6B-4F4C-A1C1-775D77EC4569.jpeg

Once the casing was colonized and ready for fruiting, I put them in 2 gallon ziplocks with syringe holes poked in the bag about every few inches

96E6BB9A-B527-487E-997D-C60C83E2B718.jpeg

It worked out really well!

BA37E12B-5097-4F71-A666-B406645B58EF.jpeg

Wish I’d taken a pic when they were ready.. they were crazy long and looked super cool.

Sorry if this was a thread intrusion but wanted to say hi and that I like your style and I thought you’d appreciate my small scale grows. And maybe my methods my give you and others some ideas like you’ve given me :)

Faht

Edited by fahtster, 01 November 2020 - 06:33 PM.

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#3 Moonless

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Posted 01 November 2020 - 09:29 PM

I also grow small scale. I much prefer small scale grows that only use one or two half pint jars as spawn. That way I can run like three different strains at the same time.


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#4 Freaky

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Posted 01 November 2020 - 09:59 PM

Faht!  :hug: I've been doing well.  How have you been? 

 

No intrusion at all my friend, I love your small scale examples and keeps me thinking of some ways I can incorporate into smaller spawn containers. Ziploc bags/containers are so versatile in this hobby! 

 

Those PE's look great! 

 

And laymix - I like the way you call that because that is what I do when I spawn but didn't know how to put a name to it, I like it!

 

I also use the grain half pints to make syringes for hot inoculations - I rarely make sugar/nute LC's I just make LC's from my grain jars like 9er Tek from the old archives. 


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#5 fahtster

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Posted 01 November 2020 - 10:21 PM

I’m good! Making the best of end if days.. ya know. Haha

Nice! Love me some grain LC. You should check out the laymix thread! https://mycotopia.ne...xing/?hl=laymix Eatyualive has lots of nice pics in it

Faht
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#6 Moonless

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Posted 01 November 2020 - 10:34 PM

I’m good! Making the best of end if days.. ya know. Haha

Nice! Love me some grain LC. You should check out the laymix thread! https://mycotopia.ne...xing/?hl=laymix Eatyualive has lots of nice pics in it

Faht

I've gotta try laymix you have very nice flushes.

 

Freeky, what is the use of worm castings in your sub? I have quite a bit of castings and would love to use it if it helps.


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#7 Freaky

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Posted 02 November 2020 - 06:15 PM

I’m good! Making the best of end if days.. ya know. Haha

Nice! Love me some grain LC. You should check out the laymix thread! https://mycotopia.ne...xing/?hl=laymix Eatyualive has lots of nice pics in it

Faht

 

I will definitely check that thread out! Might help me get more even when I set my tubs up and spawn.  Eats always has the good pics and I'm always amazed by his results.  It was probably both of you who got me doing the laymix technique way way back I just didn't know it had a name lol.  I took a peek and looks like my mycelium is ripping through so hopefully by the weekend I can let it out of the dark.

 

 

I’m good! Making the best of end if days.. ya know. Haha

Nice! Love me some grain LC. You should check out the laymix thread! https://mycotopia.ne...xing/?hl=laymix Eatyualive has lots of nice pics in it

Faht

I've gotta try laymix you have very nice flushes.

 

Freeky, what is the use of worm castings in your sub? I have quite a bit of castings and would love to use it if it helps.

 

The castings are providing additional nutes to the bulk substrate.  If I don't find the castings are working well with the coir mix I'll probably go back to my horse manure bulk and straw mix.  Have to be careful with the castings though because they can turn muddy very easily. 


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#8 FunG

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Posted 02 November 2020 - 09:55 PM

Worm castings were proven to increase the yield of a isolate by up to 5% so unless you're using a true isolate then you'd never be able to see a difference and even then 5% is not much of the overall yield to begin with.

I've got a bag castings in my cubboard that I need to throw out... I found that they cause a increase in metabolite production with p.cubensis probabl because the castings contain bacteria but not the terribly bad kind.

#9 Freaky

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Posted 03 November 2020 - 08:56 PM

Worm castings were proven to increase the yield of a isolate by up to 5% so unless you're using a true isolate then you'd never be able to see a difference and even then 5% is not much of the overall yield to begin with.

I've got a bag castings in my cubboard that I need to throw out... I found that they cause a increase in metabolite production with p.cubensis probabl because the castings contain bacteria but not the terribly bad kind.

 

As you can read above this is a MS inoculation of grain and then spawned.  No isolation was done at all.  Can you link me to journal or research proving only to isolates? I'm not looking to see any difference either and I'm not concerned about yield, again, because this is MS.  All manure based bulk substrates or straw bulk substrates will provide an increase in yield when compared to cakes or straight grain fruiting substrates.  That's the point of spawning to a bulk substrate.  

 

 

 

I've found worm castings work well in a correctly pasteurized bulk substrate.  


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#10 LIFELESSDEAD

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Posted 05 November 2020 - 05:37 AM

This is what I want to do, geat way to keep the experimenting maybe with a better reward vs pain with PF I dunno lol.  My first grow as a noob was to experiment on a store clone and I mini dub and It definetly motivated me :) 

Thankyou to you all here for your mentorship, Im hooked, Fyi as a noob I decided on 2 teks i think PF invitro and mini stuff.  I like the Idea of finding a ultimate substrain and then maybe doing a larger grow for a honey or everclear extract as savies :)

 

This store clone seamed was easier!

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#11 FunG

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Posted 05 November 2020 - 05:52 AM

This is the article I read about the testing that was done using isolates and worm castings.

http://www.themushro...cle.asp?id=2176

#12 Freaky

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Posted 05 November 2020 - 05:34 PM

This is what I want to do, geat way to keep the experimenting maybe with a better reward vs pain with PF I dunno lol.  My first grow as a noob was to experiment on a store clone and I mini dub and It definetly motivated me :) 

Thankyou to you all here for your mentorship, Im hooked, Fyi as a noob I decided on 2 teks i think PF invitro and mini stuff.  I like the Idea of finding a ultimate substrain and then maybe doing a larger grow for a honey or everclear extract as savies :)

 

This store clone seamed was easier!

Invitro is an amazing way to grow small scale if you don't mind ugly fruits and don't plan on printing but using tissue to clone. Sometimes I'll just forget jars in a drawer or cupboard and  later find they're full of invitro fruits.

 

Years ago I was using straw on a small scale with ziploc bags using bleach and lime hot water pasteurization.  I may work on developing that process more and incorporate straw with coir and the worm castings if I can find the hydration threshold for field capacity and keep it small and simple to do. So far the mycelium seems to like the coir/castings mix though I think I'll have to keep an eye that it doesn't dry out much. 

 

This is the article I read about the testing that was done using isolates and worm castings.

http://www.themushro...cle.asp?id=2176

 

Thank you for sharing that FunG.  I appreciate it.  Though I didn't read where it mentioned isolates or clone isolates were used in the study they did.  Either way, the linked article confirms increased yields and growth production.  Makes me wonder how liquid castings would perform as soak/hydration for straw or wood substrates and if they'd make a difference in yield or growth production. Or even provide longevity and more flushes "shelf life" to a bulk substrate.

 

With so many variations in product quality as well as grower environment no bulk substrate will perform the exact same way for different growers - multispore or isolate. We can use the law of averages on success or statistically look at success rates and such but this hobby is always going to be what works for me may not work for anyone else or only works once in a while for someone.  That doesn't mean that something should be put in a negative light by any means. 

I hope we can all continue to share information and try new and different methods to incorporate to our own best practices for successful harvests.  


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#13 Freaky

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 12:57 AM

Time for updating.......

 

Here is the GT - set to fruiting conditions

GT -settofruit11-10.jpg GT-settofruit2 11-10.jpg

 

 

Here is the TC - it seems to have stalled a bit but I'm leaving it on schedule with the other tub. I removed a suspect spot looked risky like cobweb and gave it a light mist. I'm not feeling great about this sub.

TC settofruit 11-10.jpg TC sus spot removed.jpg TC settofruit2 11-10.jpg

 

Here is another TC small tub spawned 11-4 and seems to be colonizing well.  This one looks much better than the first to me.

TC spawned 11-4.jpg TC spawned2 11-4.jpg

 

 

I have 1 qt of TC WBR jars to spawn, 3 half pints of GT left to spawn, and 3 qts of PESA.  All will be spawned tomorrow and I'm going to try something a bit different with the bulk sub mix.

 

 

I'm really loving these small tubs.


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#14 DickMoby

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 02:59 PM

Those strains come from the coir?

 

had a talk with someone about coir earlier this year, some blocks have longer strains in them.

My coir has stones in it, the quality is different.

I mean for plants I think it doesn't really matter but for mushs its a little annoying to deal with that stuff.

 

Is it too dense with the castings ?


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#15 Freaky

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 06:26 PM

Those strains come from the coir?

 

had a talk with someone about coir earlier this year, some blocks have longer strains in them.

My coir has stones in it, the quality is different.

I mean for plants I think it doesn't really matter but for mushs its a little annoying to deal with that stuff.

 

Is it too dense with the castings ?

 

I used a coir/worm casting mix on these tubs.  The next ones I'm spawning tonight will have a different ratio of coir/castings to get a look at which may perfom better for me if I'm leaving vermiculite out of the equation.  I can't stand verm and will be working on finding a suitable replacement.  I just want to avoid it if I can, but if I can't I'll start using it again.

 

I made a mistake when I got this coir I am using - it is a 'soil' coco coir and not for say animal bedding. I prefer to use coco coir bricks that are for reptiles because there is slim to no chance of trich or other nasties residing in it. That suspect spot I saw that looked cobwebby made me pause and take a good look at the coir bricks I have and I think they may be risky to use pasteurized. 

 

Worm castings with or without coir or verm to cut - if hydrated slowly and to field capacity are not too dense. I add hot water slowly and mix by hand. 

 

The tubs I'll spawn tonight will be done with the following:

 

For the bulk substrate it is oven pasteurized after hydrating to field capacity.

5-6 cups worm castings 1/4 brick of coir (eyeballed).  I break up the dry coir by hand as much as I can and mix the dry coir with the castings before adding hot water.  I add the water slowly and mix as I go.  This allows me to check field capacity often. if it gets a little too wet or is sticking together I break up and crumble coir until it is right.  Then I fill quart jars and cover with foil.

 

I am going to go with a straight coir casing laid at time of spawning to the above bulk substrate worm casting/coir ratio. I want to see how it holds moisture during the spawn run and if this will perform better than the above tubs I spawned to as it is higher in manure based nutrients with higher ratio of castings where before I used a higher ratio of coir. 

 

I'll be sure to take some pics later if it will help. And sorry I can't give exact measurements - I've never measured bulk materials or casing materials, I do it all by eye and through mixing and slow hydration. 



#16 Freaky

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 11:35 PM

I spawned 3 more small tubs tonight but changed it up like the above post mentioned.

 

I decided to do the bulk of the sub as worm castings with small amount of coco coir added to it. I do the 'laymix' so mix with the castings some spawn then lay final spawn on top.  Then I cased with straight coir.  Not sure if the castings will underperform but I doubt it - seemed like nice healthy compost. It's the straight coir casing I think will have hydration issues and dry out.  

 

I lined 2 of the 3 tubs.  The PESA tub I left unlined because I want to keep an eye on one of them to see how the myc handles the castings mix.

 

Here's some pics of the castings after pasteurization in the tub before spawn mixed in.  I hydrate then load jars and pasteurize in the oven.

Worm Castings Bulk Sub.jpg

Worm Castings Bulk Sub for Spawn.jpg

Worm Castings ready for spawn.jpg

 

And a pic of another GT tub with the straight coir casing.  This is garden variety coco coir which I never used before and I've always used reptile or coco coir bricks from the pet store. Hopefully I've pasteurized it well enough it'll stay healthy.

GT Spawn to WC cased w CC.jpg


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#17 fahtster

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 12:05 AM

A lot of ppl aren’t even boiling water to hydrate coir. eatyualive just uses really hot tap water.. or are you just worried because it’s not the reptile kind?

Faht

#18 Freaky

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 12:34 AM

I don't boil the water when I'm hydrating and mixing.  I heat it in the microwave about a minute and a half then hydrate slowly in between mixing.  That's how I am doing castings and coir - if I do large scale bulk with manure and straw I do hot water bath pasteurization in a cooler with the sub in a pillow case.

 

Since it's going in the oven to pasteurize my main concern is hydrating and getting to field capacity to withstand 2 hours in the oven.  

 

But yes, I am worried about that coir. So far only that one spot looked suspicious on the first TC tub but with garden variety coir I feel like it's not as clean initially as say something for your reptiles or pets would need to be.


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#19 fahtster

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 12:39 AM

Gotcha

#20 Freaky

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 12:47 AM

The first tubs I did in the beginning I did boil water on the stove to add because it was easier to hydrate since I used so little castings that first post - it was mostly coir mixed with small amount of castings.

 

It's just easier to heat it on the stove for me. Hot tap water will get it done though too, especially if you set your water heater to the highest allowable setting.


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