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Small Scale Spawning - GT & TC


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#21 fahtster

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 12:51 AM

I’m high and just saw coir and that you were hoping it was pasteurized... forgot about the castings part lol. My bad

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#22 DickMoby

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 07:17 AM

All good, was just telling my thoughts, no measurements needed.

 

You mentioned stalled or slow growth, could've been a too dense sub mix or maybe dried surface.

Yea I remember you texting about you not liking verm, for bulks I totaly agree - even though its not that bad for some types of bulk because it fluffs it up pretty good - tho its not necessary.

For casings I use the fine grade verm, not the big pieces but apart of that for nothing else.

 

After trying some things with a medium thick ~10-15mm layer of bulk - coir - as top layer over the completely mixed spawn/bulk, I had some contam issues on the surface of unmodded tubs.

In tubs with micropore covered holes there were no issues, even if the cake was covered with foil for the colonization period.

I would think the higher Co2 was the issue in those unmodded tubs, cobweb aswell as other molds grow good in high Co2 environments and the gas exchange in modded tubs worked against that issue - when using a top layer, tho the surface can dry out if too much gas exchange.

But thats just my observation in my conditions.

 

Wasn't aware of different types of coir, good to know to have an eye on it when buying, thought they just had different qualities depending on the brand that sells it.

 

Where did you buy the castings ?

Still got a little bag of low quality castings here with very low NPK and crappy consistency, just not worth to use that as supplement for bulks due to the bad quality.

Wanted to use that instead of manure to prevent the cooking of those rock hard pellets that I got here but seems like I had bad luck with grabbing shitty types of both.

Gonna try the hot water soak that you mentioned in the next weeks tho for gym luteo and pan cinc.

 

Good "luck" for those tubs !


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#23 Freaky

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 12:50 PM

No worries Faht - I was high when I spawned lol

 

 

And DickMoby - you're absolutely correct on the probability these tubs with the straight coir casing going bad before it's ready to fruit.  It's been a minute since I've grown so I did not allow for gas exchange through any pre-drilled holes in these three tubs I just spawned.  The lids do fit fairly loose, but I'll definitely have to do a check every 2-3 days just to get a bit of the co2 out of them.  Thanks for reminding me of that when casing with coir, or in general when casing but yes, coir has a tendency to do worse when cased during spawn like these and left to colonize.

 

I think you're right on the TC tub I thought had stalled and found the suspect cobweb spot.  I took a chance and put it in fruiting conditions and it's doing great now - just needed a bit of gas exchange and I gave it a light mist as well.  I'll try to update on those first two tubs that are actually in fruiting conditions.  Hoping they're knotting up right about now.....

 

And vermiculite - I've gone to some garden centers and grabbed some alternatives I'm going to try and see how they do in comparison to verm.  I'll also try some wbr cake fruiting with it also.  I'm really hoping the alternative works.  I'll share once I begin the testing on that.

 

Here is a quick pic of the EWC I purchase - I really like this brand and plan on keeping it in my bulk mixes.  I'm going to venture into revising my small straw logs and do a straw/ewc mix for some bulk logs and see how they grow.  This is a pretty common brand I see in stores over here in US and I'm sure it's likely some others here have used this brand in the past.  Not sure. Maybe they can give some feedback also. 

 

EWC Store Brand.jpg

EWC.jpg


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#24 DickMoby

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 04:55 PM

Looking forward to see what you're gonna test.

 

The castings is plain Nitrogen, think I'd prefer a little higher concentration and a mix of NPK.

 

Here the tasks that NPK have in the fungal metabolism:

 

NITROGEN (N): N forms the backbone of the numerous enzymes that fungi produce to defend, digest, and metabolize their substrates. Enzymes are a type of protein that accelerate and/or catalyze chemical reactions; they are responsible for facilitating the vast majority of the chemical-based functions of fungal growth and digestion. Without N, fungi cannot perform these functions or form chitin. The amount of available Nin a substrate is thus a major limiting factor in the cultivation of mushrooms-when the substrate runs out ofN, the fungus stops growing. To increase yields, cultivators intentionally add extra N to their substrates, often in the form of wheat bran or manure, depending on the species being worked with. Too much N can be counterproductive however as it can lead to abnormal growths, cause contaminants to proliferate, or enable the mycelium to grow so fast that it overheats in its container and kills itself. A concentration of 1-2% N is generally recommend for most substrate formulas. The fruiting stage requires more N than the vegetative stage. Organic forms of N, such as proteins and amino acids, are preferred. Some species can grow well with nitrates, though the growth of other species can be inhibited by this nitrogen source. Some species can utilize ammonium. A species that can utilize nitrate can utilize ammonium and organic N. Species that can utilize ammonium can utilize organic N. Urea should only be used to feed N to hot compost piles (don't pee on your mushrooms).

 

PHOSPHORUS (K): K is used in the production of ATP, nucleic acids, and cell membranes. It is required at around 10-3 M.
 
POTASSIUM (P): Pis critical to certain enzymatic processes and fungal metabolism. It also influences the osmotic potential of hyphae. It is required at around 10-3
M.
 
__________
 
Plain nitrogen and calcium are good too

 



#25 Freaky

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 05:10 PM

 

Looking forward to see what you're gonna test.

 

The castings is plain Nitrogen, think I'd prefer a little higher concentration and a mix of NPK.

 

Here the tasks that NPK have in the fungal metabolism:

 

NITROGEN (N): N forms the backbone of the numerous enzymes that fungi produce to defend, digest, and metabolize their substrates. Enzymes are a type of protein that accelerate and/or catalyze chemical reactions; they are responsible for facilitating the vast majority of the chemical-based functions of fungal growth and digestion. Without N, fungi cannot perform these functions or form chitin. The amount of available Nin a substrate is thus a major limiting factor in the cultivation of mushrooms-when the substrate runs out ofN, the fungus stops growing. To increase yields, cultivators intentionally add extra N to their substrates, often in the form of wheat bran or manure, depending on the species being worked with. Too much N can be counterproductive however as it can lead to abnormal growths, cause contaminants to proliferate, or enable the mycelium to grow so fast that it overheats in its container and kills itself. A concentration of 1-2% N is generally recommend for most substrate formulas. The fruiting stage requires more N than the vegetative stage. Organic forms of N, such as proteins and amino acids, are preferred. Some species can grow well with nitrates, though the growth of other species can be inhibited by this nitrogen source. Some species can utilize ammonium. A species that can utilize nitrate can utilize ammonium and organic N. Species that can utilize ammonium can utilize organic N. Urea should only be used to feed N to hot compost piles (don't pee on your mushrooms).

 

PHOSPHORUS (K): K is used in the production of ATP, nucleic acids, and cell membranes. It is required at around 10-3 M.
 
POTASSIUM (P): Pis critical to certain enzymatic processes and fungal metabolism. It also influences the osmotic potential of hyphae. It is required at around 10-3
M.
 
__________
 
Plain nitrogen and calcium are good too

 

 

That info there is gold! Thank you and It's why I prefer my horse manure as bulk substrate when I go big - as in build big bulk subs in big tubs.  So far I am happy with this brand of castings though it is absent of phosphorus and potassium. 


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#26 Freaky

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Posted 13 November 2020 - 12:50 PM

Just some quick updates.  The first two subs are pinning and misting has stopped, it will be FAE only moving forward on these two.

 

The TC that I thought had stalled just needed to breath a bit.  Sadly I wish I had lined this tub as you'll see below it knotted like crazy and I'll definitely be cloning from this if the fruits are worthwhile.

 

The GT doesn't look like it will be as nice of a pinset but maybe it will surprise me.

 

That's under 30 days from MS inoculation to pins which was the norm for me last time I grew about 15 years ago or so.  It's nice to have that feeling come back that I didn't completely screw these up.

 

 

GT tub pins - this tub doesn't appear to have the bottom and side knotting like the TC tub.

GT pins 11-13.jpg

GT pins(2) 11-13.jpg

 

TC tub pins - the knotting on sides and bottoms I wish was on the top (lesson learned) 

TC pins 11-13.jpg

TC pins(2) 11-13.jpg

TC side hyphalknots.jpg

 

 

Hopefully the next set of spawn subs will go into fruiting this weekend.


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#27 Freaky

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 07:34 PM

A quick update on the small spawn tubs.  The pins are coming in nicely except for the side/bottom pins due to lack of blocking the tubs. Not too worried since these are so small it will be easy to pop out and harvest.

 

The GT's are developing a decent pin set for MS so I can't complain. 

GT Pinset.jpg

 

The TC's though likely smaller fruitbodies once mature have some decent clusters I will be cloning from. The pins are better along the sides and bottom of this tub of TC's - again not too concerned since it's just a small scale grow from MS to pick some future genetics from.

TC Pinset Clusters.jpg

 

I decided to do some PesA strain in quart jars of WBR and I 'laymixed a la Faht' to worm castings then a straight coir casing. In 5 days I can't complain - though in all fairness it was 3 quarts of spawn to 2 quarts castings 1 quart coir. I hope this delivers some nice genetics to keep around. 

PesA MS-WBR-WC-CC 11-11.jpg

PesA CC Layer.jpg

 

 


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#28 coAsTal

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 09:38 PM

Love your mini-grows-- I do similar size projects because of space limitations (and no need for ounces of fruits, hehe-- it's just for me!)

Here's a pair of South African Transkei minis I did this summer, just 2 trays with 1 pint rye/each and cased with plain coir:

I got a bit over an oz. dry through the life of them.

SatTray1a8_29.jpg SatTray2harvest9_6.jpg

 

This is a Tampanensis var. Galindoi shoebox with 1 qt. rye mixed into 2 qts coir and cased with (pasteurized) 50/50 cactus soil/coarse sand @1/8 in. I ultimately got over a half oz. dry fruit and ~153g wet sclerotia (stones) from this box.

P1120479.JPG

 

And finally, my little Semperviva (Hoogshagenii var. Convexa) tray of 1 pint plain cased rye grain with a 1/8 in. casing layer (same casing as the Gal's above)

SempTray10_28.jpg

This one is still flushing, but so far I've gotten at least 5g dry from it and expect long term production from it over the next couple months to get me to a half ounce (hopefully).

 

All hail the micro grows!!!

:hug:


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#29 Freaky

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 12:00 AM

Lovin' it CoAsTal! Those are some great examples and lovely photos! Thank you for sharing those.

 

Micro-myco projects I've always found help me fine tune the strain or species I'm going to work with in the space I've made for them. It also helps me select clone genetics for when I want to do a large scale mega-myco substrate. 


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#30 fahtster

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 09:31 PM

Cased this guy on the 1st

1A2DB298-A05D-4398-B822-BB9D66A06374.jpeg

Wish it fruited on top but it’s fruiting almost a week ahead of schedule

1DA02723-DD1F-46A5-A869-4A55A89DC420.jpeg

Probably let it go a couple more days and see how big they get

Faht
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#31 cujoloki

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 11:25 PM

Those look badass. Need some Viagra in the substrate! Just joking! <3 great grows!
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#32 Freaky

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Posted 20 November 2020 - 06:42 PM

Those are super shrooms right there Faht! Damn they're big - she did say that

 

 

I harvested the GT tub and tossed it outside.  It definitely had a bacteria contam of some kind.  Not sure if it was always there (from spore syringe) or not.  Sub never smelled sweet nor the grain jars but it was definitely bacterial infection on the fruits.  Oh well, if the next GT's from that syringe have fruitbodies that also appear the same I think it's likely the syringe had an issue.

I should of noticed sooner when I saw the deformed and mutant like caps on the pins and then the twisted stems appeared.  I harvested and trashed.

GT Flush 1a.jpg

 

The TC look great and healthy I'm very happy with these and will be picking some for clone genetics. 

TC Flush 1.jpg


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#33 Freaky

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Posted 27 November 2020 - 01:49 AM

I'm very impressed with this TC strain - clusters and tall beautiful fruits.  For multispore I cannot complain and have some nice clones I plan on taking to large scale bulk manure. 

 

These below are the second tubs I spawned on 11-4 to castings and coir. This tub had a higher ratio of castings than coir. The GT that was spawned that same day hasn't pinned yet but it was cased after colonizing and not done in a dubtub like the others. I'm hoping it will pin in the next day or so. 

 

These got so tall I had to remove the top tub and put it in a makeshift chamber with some others that just went into fruiting. I was surprised at how tall these got. I can't wait to see them on horse manure bulk in large subs.

 

Too tall TC's TC WBR MS 10-18 spawn 11-4 ewc & cc.jpg

Moved to makeshift chamber TC WBR MS 10-18 spawn 11-4 ewc & cc2.jpg

Harvested TC WBR MS 10-18 spawn 11-4 ewc & cc3.jpg  


Edited by Freaky, 27 November 2020 - 01:51 AM.

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#34 Freaky

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Posted 27 November 2020 - 01:49 AM

oops duplicate


Edited by Freaky, 27 November 2020 - 01:50 AM.


#35 fahtster

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Posted 27 November 2020 - 02:45 AM

Wow.. those are great!

Thought I’d share a pic with ya since you’re going to try the drying out for storage method.. these are all cultures in various stages of being dried out. My children lol

16A78637-9D7D-41D1-99E4-695E95049590.jpeg

Faht

Edited by fahtster, 27 November 2020 - 05:50 AM.

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#36 Freaky

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Posted 27 November 2020 - 01:04 PM

I really enjoy your method for the clone storage - those lids are amazing and versatile for keeping things long term.  It makes me feel good knowing I can move on to the next strain I want to do and keep those stored if I want to get back to them at a later time.  Absolutely one of the best methods for me right now. Especially once I get some of these old spores going. 

 

Popcorn has been working great but like you mentioned, another similar grain like rye or oats would work well too.  I may do some whole brown rice on the next set I do and see how those work with clone tissue. WBR is cheap and can be done without a PC for others who may be interested in this method.  Honestly I don't know why I didn't try this way way back when I was growing - probably got too set in my ways.

 

I have more TC pinning on the 3rd tub that is mostly worm castings - and the 3rd GT tub that was made with it is also pinning. So I will have GT to move to the Faht clone jars with Faht lids probably next week and the PESA tub that was super spawned has been in fruiting just looking beautiful but finally saw primordia last night and pins this morning. It sure moved slow after colonizing so fast.  I find the later pinning and fruits that take a long time to mature can usually be fairly potent or they've got a bacterial issue within the mycelium network structure. If I can't smell bacteria on the sub or within the tub it smells earthy and mushroomy the fruit bodies will show the bacterial infection. I'm hoping that isn't the case and also that the next GT's that fruit don't suffer from the bacterial issue the first tub had.

 

Either way, the TC's have more than made up for any loss due to that issue. 


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#37 fahtster

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Posted 27 November 2020 - 01:54 PM

Noice.. glad you like it.. I also like to pc the master jars a bit longer than I would just basic qts.. just to be sure since they’re gonna sit for extended periods. 2 hours for those, but up to you... I do my qts for 1.5hrs. I’m excited to see how it works for ya! :)

Faht
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#38 Freaky

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Posted 27 November 2020 - 08:34 PM

I normally always do 90 mins so I think I will bump it up to 120 mins for the full 2 hours and better safe than sorry - especially if it's for the purpose of saving master for a clone or isolate of a strain I want in the future.


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#39 DickMoby

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Posted Yesterday, 08:09 AM

Interesting to dehydrate a culture for storage.

 

Is the dehydration somehow speed up or do you leave the jars until they dried on room temp ?

I'd be concerned about senescence if I kept them to dry out over months on room temp.

 

Some grain jars I had sitting on room temp for 4-5 months and the cultures are done, a TAT tub is sitting since almost three months and throwing small pins in super slow mo that don't mature.

Same with some Thais but they mature at least, still alot of aborts and too slow to keep the tub longer than flush one


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#40 fahtster

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Posted Yesterday, 11:27 AM

I think the drying out puts it in a state that “freezes” it.. so senescence isn’t an issue. For example.. this tub was done in April

F04EAF0D-BAF7-43B6-B0A9-F709E2E91A76.jpeg

I dried it out and it sat at room temp.. actually, it sat in an outdoor storage area outside in a bin which I’m sure hit higher than room temp for at least a couple weeks and it’s the culture I’m currently running in my PE 16qt thread that’s doing this

10DE61D9-786A-46AC-89F0-CAA5636C82FE.jpeg

So I think it’s still doing alright.. if it were sitting for that long hydrated, I think it would be a different story, like your experience

I use specialized tyvek lids that I can adjust the airflow by taping over when I’m colonizing the grain and then removing the tape when I want to dry it out.. here’s the link to that https://mycotopia.ne...he-test-of-time. You can even put them in front of a fan to speed up the drying process.. takes a few weeks with about 40% of the lids tyvek left uncovered and I use 4oz jelly jars about half full of grain so it’s pretty fast once you remove the tape

Have you tried switching grains that you use for spawn? Apparently that helps with senescence.

Faht

Edited by fahtster, Yesterday, 11:33 AM.

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