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Crossing strain varieties via swab to spore solution


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#61 thafunkyone

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 02:23 PM

 

Radical Mycology:

 

"RELATIONSHIP STRUCTURE AND SEXUAL ORIENTATION IN MUSHROOMS

While the pairing of two, sexually compatible partners is the most common relationship structure, it is not the rule. Not all Basidiomycete relationships are monogamous or capable of producing offspring. Occasionally, a partnered mycelium will invite in another mycelium, forming a triad. Two pairs of hyphae can also fuse to produce four-partner relationships, with each nucleus contributing its genetic knowledge and abilities to the healthy functioning of the system. This fungal version of polyamory, known as a polykaryon, can go on to create strong relationships and healthy offspring. Sometimes, a fusion occurs between partners who are somatically compatible, but infertile.
This is analogous to homosexuality in humans. These dikaryons can live together indefinitely, leading healthy lives. Without expending huge amounts of energy on reproduction, they have all the more life force to channel into their work of decomposition, symbiosis, or parasitis"
 
Not sure what you mean with asexual.
 
We got quite a few PE crosses out there:
PE6, Melmac, Tidal Wave, Kape, APE
 
those are the ones I know.
 
For example APE, its a cross of PF Albino and PE, both mutants.
Going with your theory APE could't exist how it exists today because both mutations would've "eliminated" each other.
 
If we take a look at all these crosses, they all don't have the classic PE dick look, something I see in the first pictures of this thread is wavy caps.
Some Melmacs and Tidal Wave (both PE crosses) do also have the wavy caps.
 
How would you explain the mixed fruits if not a cross?

 

 

What proof do you have that these are crosses and not selection and cloning of mature fruitbodies? 

 

Be careful with your wording without evidence. All both of us have are theories, neither has proof. And while I appreciate your enthusiasm, without the science to back it up all both of us have are theories. 



#62 DickMoby

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 03:02 PM

Sure you can have your opinion, I got mine.

 

I find it interesting tho that you come up doubting everyone and all existing PE crosses and your explanation is that two mutations would eliminate each other, while we see the opposite in APE (and here in this thread aswell).

 

A genetic reset wouldn't result in a mixture of two varieties.

How do you explain mixed fruits coming from the same cake that are not variety A and not variety B but a mixture of both if not a cross?

 

The only difference between putting two monos on the same plate and hope they mate is that the swab method brings in a ton of monos and raises the chance of crosses due to the incredible amount of monos.

 

You mentioned that all the albinos and rusty spores are stabilized mutations, nobody said something else but does that mean there are no crosses and its all just cloned special fruits that are sold als crosses ?

 

I really have a hard time seing the sense in your words and I don't want to fight you, I just don't see any sense


Edited by DickMoby, 21 November 2020 - 03:05 PM.

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#63 thafunkyone

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 04:30 PM

Sure you can have your opinion, I got mine.

 

I find it interesting tho that you come up doubting everyone and all existing PE crosses and your explanation is that two mutations would eliminate each other, while we see the opposite in APE (and here in this thread aswell).

 

A genetic reset wouldn't result in a mixture of two varieties.

How do you explain mixed fruits coming from the same cake that are not variety A and not variety B but a mixture of both if not a cross?

 

The only difference between putting two monos on the same plate and hope they mate is that the swab method brings in a ton of monos and raises the chance of crosses due to the incredible amount of monos.

 

You mentioned that all the albinos and rusty spores are stabilized mutations, nobody said something else but does that mean there are no crosses and its all just cloned special fruits that are sold als crosses ?

 

I really have a hard time seing the sense in your words and I don't want to fight you, I just don't see any sense

 

Search 'mushroom crosses' and you'll see why I doubt said crosses. I've been doing this for around 20 years and the prevailing wisdom from people that know far more than I is that there are no crosses. Yes, I too have read that you can put monos on a plate together and hopefully they cross, bur you generally will not get a fruitbody. 

 

I am always open to change, I just need proof. That's all I'm asking for. Send me some links on the process you described I'd love it. 

 

Why could it not be stabilized mutations? All of the mushrooms we currently cultivate had to be stabilized from wild specimens originally. Weird things happen in nature when we start messing with it: look at cannabis- once breeding gets so far away from the original landrace genetics people have a hard time stabilizing the genetics- plants suffer from loss of vigor when they are polyhybrids, they'll self seed/switch sex under stress, all sorts of shit without proper plant selection to stabilize. Purebred dogs suffer from all sorts of ailments because of inbreeding. Fruit and veg- there is a huge difference between produce grown 100 years ago and modern produce- everything we eat now has been bred to its' current state for a variety of reasons through crossing and selection. How do I know this? There is proof, I can surely read 1000s of papers detailing the complete process on all of these things.

 

This is probably the 70000th time this debate has taken place between here and shroomery, and it's not going to go away anytime soon...:)

 

I'm just asking for proof. You can tell me what you think all day, but until I see a link to any sort of research, your telling me what you think isn't going to change my mind. And I'm not trying to belittle you or argue with you, but thats how science works. Neither of us have proof, but i can pull up a fuckton of links of people smarter than me saying it doesn't work like that, and that's where I draw my conclusions from.

 

Like ol fahtphish said, lets see the f2! :) 


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#64 DickMoby

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 05:04 PM

I'm really intersted in your theory about what happened here and why the fruits are mixed.

 

Do you really think that in an experiment of crossing a leucistic mush with PE a random mutation of AA+ occured that just randomly looks like a mixture of the two used varieties ?

 

Please explain me what you think happened here and resulted in the fruits we see.

 

I did read that theres mated monos that wont produce fruits but can this be generalized?

 

Of course I can't link you any studies since all this is more or less illegal work done by private people and not any universities that documented it in official papers.

 

Whats with Rusty Whyte ? same thing -  just a random mutation in the experiment, whats with APE, the same, also just a random mutation while crossing two varieties ?

 

Please link me some stuff that I can read into the things you mentioned 


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#65 fahtster

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Posted 21 November 2020 - 05:23 PM

Yeah, all the conclusions are gonna just be “do you agree with what I’m seeing?” “Yeah, I see it too and so agree with you”... hard scientific proof would probably incorporate dna sequencing and knowing which gene sequence does what to physical traits, but that’s not gonna happen on my end lol. So, for now it’s gonna have to be some closet growers coming to a rough agreement... when I say “crossing” or “crosses”, that gentlepersons agreement is what I’m referring to.

The new f1 qts are about at their shaking point.. most of the growth is happening at the bottom for these 6

841E53F4-6F79-4EAF-9F56-6BB6623A4EE1.jpeg . CF975B5F-C780-44B7-9ED7-1542D3A68E42.jpeg

I’m expecting some further reduction of sub strains from the first mini mono I did (due to the small amount of grain that was inoculated for the GLC jar for this next round) so it’ll be interesting to see how the fruits come out on these next 3 16qt bins.. I’m expecting a denser pin set from the way I’m going to construct the substrate this time.

Faht
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#66 thafunkyone

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 06:28 AM

I'm really intersted in your theory about what happened here and why the fruits are mixed.

 

Do you really think that in an experiment of crossing a leucistic mush with PE a random mutation of AA+ occured that just randomly looks like a mixture of the two used varieties ?

 

Please explain me what you think happened here and resulted in the fruits we see.

 

I did read that theres mated monos that wont produce fruits but can this be generalized?

 

Of course I can't link you any studies since all this is more or less illegal work done by private people and not any universities that documented it in official papers.

 

Whats with Rusty Whyte ? same thing -  just a random mutation in the experiment, whats with APE, the same, also just a random mutation while crossing two varieties ?

 

Please link me some stuff that I can read into the things you mentioned 

I think I explained my thoughts on this subject fairly well and will not be rehashing the same comments over and over. At this point we have differing viewpoints. However, I am looking forward to seeing what pops out of fahts next flush, as seeing these things with my own eyes vs. some story some guy I don't know typed up after he 'bred' a new 'strand' of cubie, or whatever  the kids are calling em lately.

 

Bring on the F2!!!!


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#67 jrh

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 07:21 AM

Umm, stupid question... You're trying to bring PE traits into AA+? So F2 means it's one removed from PE? And F2 is accomplished by using spores from F1 fruit? Is it spores from one F1 cap, or multiple caps that all had the PEA+?

 

Just trying to catch up.


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#68 DickMoby

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 07:50 AM

Interesting that you again avoided all my questions and also didn't link me any of the stuff you mentioned and instead start firing at me with that "as seeing these things with my own eyes vs. some story some guy I don't know typed up after he 'bred' a new 'strand' of cubie, or whatever  the kids are calling em lately"

 

 

You don't know anything about me so please keep stuff like that in your head.

 

What you put out here still makes no sense at all, talking about asexuality and bringing up cannabis crossing which has nothing to do with whats happening here.

Again, how does a reset of genetic result in something mixed? 

What you bring up as arguments makes no sense, all I get is deflecting and avoiding.

What do you think happened here to cause mixed fruits if not a cross ?

 

I'm open to more neutral discussions but if someone starts bullshitting then I'm not willing to shut my mouth and leave it like that


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#69 jrh

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 08:42 AM

Since it looks like this has become an argument, can it be taken to private messages instead of the forum?
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#70 DickMoby

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 10:13 AM

If putting nonsense out and then avoid any questions + attacking is something thats ok here then I seriously doubt that I'm at the right place for learning and sharing.

 

To question things that make no sense is the way to evolve and become better.

To swallow bullpoop and not question it is how you become manipulated and/or stay average.

 

I'll leave it like that.


Edited by DickMoby, 22 November 2020 - 10:14 AM.


#71 fahtster

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 10:42 AM

Umm, stupid question... You're trying to bring PE traits into AA+? So F2 means it's one removed from PE? And F2 is accomplished by using spores from F1 fruit? Is it spores from one F1 cap, or multiple caps that all had the PEA+?

Just trying to catch up.

I’m trying to get a fast, sporelating, potent variety that doesn’t require a casing. The f2 is from one f1 cap.. the f2 I have coming up but I took spores from multiple caps to eventually grow out

Yeah let’s keep the arguing to a minimum.. everyone’s views have been expressed, there’s not much more to do now but wait.. I didn’t take that comment about a guy making up a story about a cube he bred as him talking about you specifically, DickMoby.. I took it as him just saying he doesn’t necessarily believe ppl that say they made a new variety on the internet.. I don’t think you were the “some guy”.. I could be wrong tho

Faht

Edited by fahtster, 22 November 2020 - 10:50 AM.


#72 newmoon

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 12:04 PM

Heterothallic basidiomycetes (like cubensis) mate after spore germination via nuclear exchange, so there's no reason this type of process wouldn't be a plausible way to cross "strains". Workman and others have already shown that similar approaches are viable ways to do crosses.

 

faht, this is super cool, really looking forward to seeing what weirdness comes up in future generations...


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#73 fahtster

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 11:42 PM

Some pf redspore... they’re gonna be the spore donors for a PE/pfrs (trying to get a redspore PE) hybrid attempt

0C4AB3F2-D2E3-4F85-B21B-E389C808B2CB.jpeg

Just waiting for em to start droppin the goods

Faht
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#74 rockyfungus

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Posted 23 November 2020 - 01:42 PM

What happened to the one cap in the back, did you slice him? Looking jammed for a PF jar!



#75 fahtster

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Posted 23 November 2020 - 03:25 PM

I took the cap to see if any spores were on a swab.. nada but it was just after the veil broke.. forgot from past experience that pfrs drop way after the caps open.. hoping to see spores on the stems after I get home from work in 6 hours.

It’s a bit of rye mixed with CV top fruited in a tall 1/2 pint

Faht

#76 rockyfungus

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Posted 23 November 2020 - 05:14 PM

Oh that makes more sense. That's my go to way of printing when I don't need any production done.

Recently I switched to the regular glad round containers, get decent fruits, but nothing too big based on depth of container.


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#77 fahtster

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 10:17 PM

All 4 pea+ f2 cakes looking good so far.. at 6 days.. got solid growth at all inoc points

6C982093-28E7-474A-A915-393E08F521F9.jpeg

Expecting to lose at least one but if the inoculate is bad, I’ll usually see it in the first week so fingers crossed :)

Second round of pea+ F1 qts (6) are looking pretty solid.. 2 days after shake

46C56B97-2F4B-4E39-BA00-3495BA5B19BB.jpeg

Faht
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#78 thafunkyone

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Posted Yesterday, 04:26 AM

Interesting that you again avoided all my questions and also didn't link me any of the stuff you mentioned and instead start firing at me with that "as seeing these things with my own eyes vs. some story some guy I don't know typed up after he 'bred' a new 'strand' of cubie, or whatever  the kids are calling em lately"

 

 

You don't know anything about me so please keep stuff like that in your head.

 

What you put out here still makes no sense at all, talking about asexuality and bringing up cannabis crossing which has nothing to do with whats happening here.

Again, how does a reset of genetic result in something mixed? 

What you bring up as arguments makes no sense, all I get is deflecting and avoiding.

What do you think happened here to cause mixed fruits if not a cross ?

 

I'm open to more neutral discussions but if someone starts bullshitting then I'm not willing to shut my mouth and leave it like that

Why are you getting offensive? Nothing I've written in these threads is a personal attack...I asked you how it is possible, or anyone really, I'm interested in the project and would love to have it change my mind. The MAIN reason I'm asking is because of the influx over the last few years of 'breeding', which to me looks more like isolation or selection or just marketing hype bullshit. 

 

I agree with faht- I'm looking towards t he f2 to see what pops up. When I started like 19-20 years ago the guys that started the OMC- hippie3, RR, nan, people like that were all in agreement that you could not 'cross' mushrooms to make something new- like I stated earlier, so thats what I'm basing my questions on. I had forgot about workman so I'm gonna go back and look up all his work at shroomery.

 

At the end of the day man I'm never here to start an argument, we're on a board that teaches people how to grow and extract psychedelics...:) but I will ask questions that will make us all further our knowledge and push us forward. I believe we are entering a new 'psychedelic renaissance'- our world needs that. And with forthcoming decriminalization/legalization of natural psychedelics and entheogens the people that we interact with here and other spaces online and IRL will have the chance to be a part of all this. if our government allows mass legalization of psilocybin, people like us should have an opportunity to turn on the world, not big pharma, which has a high likelihood of happening if we don't pay attention to the details. 

 

I do appreciate the fact that you are incredibly passionate about these subjects, we need people like that. Just know we're on the same team, and if we don't ask questions we will never get the answers we're looking for. 



#79 DickMoby

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Posted Yesterday, 07:01 AM

Hey man.

 

Like I said, I'm always open for exchanges and willing to talk about things.

I tried hard to have a conversation with you and asked questions about your points which you completely avoided over multiple comments.

 

We could have had a nice conversation about the topic but exchange without exchange is just a game and nothing productive.

 

Hippie3, RR, Workman and many other people have made crosses that are out there since like 10-15 years now.

 

Back then alot of things were just plain speculation and turned out to be wrong over time.

 

To correct things that are wrong has nothing to do with attacking, like I said, I tried hard to have a conversation to change your mind based on things we know now but that wasn't possible so at some point it got actually frustrating and there was nothing left than to clearly say that things are wrong.

 

This is not to act like a smartass or to win a debate, its to avoid wrong info from being shared and you mentioned 20 years of experience so its very likely that people believe what you've put out.

 

_______

 

The reason why I made an account here on topia is the rules that people gotta be respectful (on facebook and shroomery for example people are disgusting), and the bad advice rule here.

 

To see something thats clearly out of date and to not correct it is how we support wrong info being spread and in my eyes theres nothing wrong with having a conversation about those things, actually the opposite - people will dislike me even more for saying this but to ignore wrong stuff is like watching away when someone gets beat up.

 

I'm not here to make friends, its something that might or might not happen but not my main goal, I'm online to learn and share.

Always open for productive conversations but it has to be a conversation and not a game



#80 DickMoby

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Posted Yesterday, 07:09 AM

Curious about both, slightly more excited about the f1 tho, patiently waiting for the update






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