84 replies to this topic

[Guy1298]

I find myself thinking about how this compares to entertainment and other things.

 

I know I could spend a few hours playing a video game and be pretty relaxed. I eat ice cream and it's pleasurable. I have sex, it's pleasurable. These things come with happiness too.

 

Why is this better? Seems the other things have drawbacks. Play too much of a video game and I find myself thinking I've wasted my time. Why doesn't that happen here? I'd say because the mind experienced in this state is pure undistracted happiness. But who knows. Sex with a partner comes with the difficulties of maintaining the relationship. The happiness of the relationship changes with the shifting emotions of oneself and the other. Eat too much ice cream and you'll be working to lose weight. 

 

... And I guess there's something to be said about the amount of time the mind spends in happiness in those states. I don't feel that it's very much. On the other hand, I spend about 5 hours to reach a state that rests in happiness. I could stay there for another 5 hours and allow the mind to rest for 5 straight hours in it. I couldn't even begin to find that in the world. And while psychedelics certainly produce similar highs, they're unpredictable and more of a rollercoaster, unsuited to day-to-day use.

 

One might argue for microdoses. I agree somewhat. The state of mind found in a microdose is not pure undistracted happiness, while it might occasionally be that. This is predictably reproducible, and the state of mind is pure undictracted happiness. I have found nothing else that is like this. So, 5 hours is worthy payment. I'll see it become shorter.

Edited by Guy1298, 08 January 2023 - 06:17 PM.

[Guy1298]

Of course, I'm really downplaying the value of psychedelics in the above post. Psychedelics are incredible for what they are and what they do. But, this is something different that suits me right now. 

[Guy1298]

Meditating tonight, it occurred to me that I'm waiting. 

 

For one reason or another, I haven't pursued relationship or family. I don't see that changing. Work, I seem to be doing because it makes sense. If I save for retirement as quickly as possible, I can get out of the game quicker than otherwise. Father's dead and I've lost interest in remaining connected to most of my family, other than one of my brothers and my mother. 

 

Ultimately, I distract myself daily because my work is too chill. Internet, movies, games, whatever. Also, rock climbing. I tell myself attempting to go beyond my limits in rock climbing is good. It is at least exercise and fun. A body in pain can be hell. So, the price I pay is exercise, some yoga, to keep it from yelling. 

 

What am I waiting for? Most of my ideas have been shot down by certain realities. When you find the company of a shaman who might have been a bit of a drug addict, money-hungry, depressed, etc. Ya gotta rethink the idea that South American shamanism is the way to go. Hence, that's done with. Buddhism was done as soon as I met monks who spend most of their day playing video games, pissing in plastic bottles, and tossing them into the forest.  

 

Bad shamans and bad monks. Heh. I wasn't impressed at this retreat either. Even really good people haven't looked at what they've chosen to do and believe critically. A man mentioned loving-kindness at the retreat and the teacher said that you should only focus on the sensation at the nostrils. Of course, loving-kindness was one of the 40 objects suitable for samatha meditation from the Buddha. Loving-kindness could lead one to Jhana. So, I hear that and think... huh? There were a lot of huh's during this retreat. For myself, I appear to have spent 8-9 days in something close to, if not, jhana. But, the teacher basically told me jhana was almost impossible for a lay person. When I said, piti was pervasive pleasure in the body, he looked at me oddly. Sigh. How can I trust someone like that. I don't care how nicely you talk to people. If you have no idea, I can't trust you to help me. So, I managed it myself and looked skeptically at a very odd interpretation of sensations as being insight. 

 

I guess people are taken advantage of, intentionally and unintentionally. This life is so short-sighted and ignorant. 

[Guy1298]

As for what I'm waiting for. Actually, when that occurred to me, it seemed that I was merely waiting. This life and world aren't real, I'm not going to remember them, as I won't survive this. I am waiting as that fundamental reality. Waiting for what? What could I be waiting for? I'm not even waiting because I couldn't wait for anything. 

[Guy1298]

Good ol' frustration. :).

 

Just going to continue to meditate and work. 

[Guy1298]

Decided to alternate concentration on the breath with self-inquiry. That seems to work. 

 

Jhana brought on by concentration on the breath is hard won and doesn't destabilize faith in thoughts and the underlying personality that 'owns' them. Self-inquiry does.

 

But, self-inquiry in my experience tends towards ridiculously unstable highs. Bliss beyond bliss, until it's followed by an abysmal low when it disappears.

 

Perhaps alternating the two will help to stabilize the self-inquiry related experience. We shall see.

 

Again... at least it gives me something to do and work towards. Hah. :)

Edited by Guy1298, 11 January 2023 - 01:30 PM.

[Guy1298]

Hmm...

 

Might be on to something here. Did just that tonight, alternating concentration meditation with self-inquiry. 

 

As I did self-inquiry, it occurred that I noticed that I know myself via the senses only. It's not that I know myself, then know myself in association with the senses. I merely experience the senses and they inform me of what "I" am. I then experienced that mere experience of the senses as it is. Of course, there was plenty of thinking afterwards. So, couldn't say it's anything like what Ramana indicates. And nothing special, as far as I can tell. 

 

But, it's reminiscent of other times I encountered this. There was happiness, but more of a joy of realizing that the dream is indeed a dream. And perhaps a happiness in knowing that I am not different from the fundamental reality. Saying it is different than knowing it. Even knowing it, then forgetting it, then saying it again, is different than knowing it. 

[RiseUp]

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here on your thread. When I began self-inquiry it taught me about attention. Before self-inquiry I wasn't aware how my attention could be directed and now notice when my attention shifts from one place to another. During self-inquiry my attention stays on my chest although I notice when it moves to my mind or when a breeze hits my arm. Wanted to get that out of the way, so hopefully what is written below makes more sense from my perspective.

 

After reading what you wrote my thought was that the "I" is the knowing of the senses, but the "I" is what interprets the senses if the attention is directed at what the senses are providing. I'm quite new in self-inquiry. The relatively few experiences I've encountered bring a deep peace although not long lasting. What I've noticed afterwards though is an acceptance of what is with little to no interpretation which also does not last as long as I'd choose more than likely because my attention pulls me away.

 

What do you mean by "knowing that I am not different from the fundamental reality"?

 

Trying to put into words the peace I've experienced and the acceptance of what is makes sense in your writing of "saying it is different than knowing it" and because I do forget it and can't experience when I wish your following words "even knowing it, then forgetting it, then saying it again, is different than knowing it".

 

Am new to this and will continue because it's helpful. Still have days when my attention is focused on what I interpret as problems even though a part of me knows I should do a self-inquiry.

[Guy1298]

I suppose what I mean by fundamental reality is pure awareness. But, I call it fundamental reality because it's feels closer to what I feel it is. It is the origin of everything. At the very least it is the origin of mind, body, and world as I experience them now. But, in my experience, and I could be way off, it isn't anything special. It's like Ramana says, "The reality which is the mere consciousness that remains when ignorance is destroyed along with knowledge of objects, alone is the Self [atma]."

 

Perhaps, I've got it wrong. I wouldn't be surprised. Sometimes what I write here is more wishful thinking than direct experience. :). I hope to find more of that direct experience though. 

 

I will say that, for me, self-inquiry done constantly without meditation practice is incredibly difficult. Not because activity involved in self-inquiry is hard, but the rollercoaster that ensues throws me off. The bliss is real bliss and sometimes utterly silent peace, better than anything I've experienced on any psychedelic or elsewhere. But, the lows are just ridiculously low. I get thrown off because I have a job and people around me and can't let myself fall apart to that extent and likely to pass beyond some threshold that I haven't been able to yet. I suspect I'll return to the constant practice at some point. I think these meditation/self-inquiry sessions will help. 

 

Very likely you're doing self-inquiry much better than myself. :)

Edited by Guy1298, 14 January 2023 - 12:48 PM.

[Guy1298]

For me, alternating samatha meditation with self-inquiry makes sense. Samatha is calming meditation, extremely stable when it's good, and with Jhana it's like a black hole of stability, one-pointedness, pleasure, and happiness. My self-inquiry is unstable and so its results are unstable. So for me, samatha is preparation of mind for self-inquiry. Perhaps self-inquiry should ultimately be done constantly at all times, but it just doesn't cut it for me. I know of a few times I tried self-inquiry constantly and eventually it came to be that my emotions were just fucked up and I had to step back and rethink the approach, usually I just saw that I was emotionally unbalanced and decided to do meditation on the breath (which always led me back to a stable emotional state).

 

It also kind of makes sense from the standpoint of Buddhism. Samatha meditation prepares the mind for insight. And, in my opinion, self-inquiry is an insight practice. Though it's an insight contrary to early Buddhist theory (subject to interpretation).  

[Guy1298]

This time, 3.5 hours to notice a definite shift where I can say that I'm definitely in a altered state meditatively speaking. 4.5 hours there was a deepening to the meditation. Thoughts became very very wispy and subtle. I can't say they aren't there. Just like, I can't say that there isn't the feeling of breathing in the chest, though I'm not aware of it. Very very wispy, quiet. The bodily pleasure was missing at 4.5 hours, but present 3.5 hours. Yet, I'd say the 4.5 hours state is the better one.

 

Also mixed in some self-inquiry. What I learned was the same as usual. I'm just awareness, apart from mind, body, and world. That awareness is independent from mind, body, and world which appear because and within it. Yet, the world imposes the false notion that the awareness has anything to do with a living body... it doesn't. That's a very well cast net, a trap, and a convincing dream. 

Edited by Guy1298, 14 January 2023 - 09:54 PM.

[Severian]

Yeah... But you wouldn't be typing this if you didn't have a body

[Guy1298]

I guess it was that statement that the awareness had anything to do with a living body that motivated that response. :). 

 

Looking back, I think what I was meant to say was that the apparent world makes it seem that the body and mind has the awareness. The death of the body and mind then seems to overshadow the awareness. Even the best reasoning is merely an appearance in that awareness. Awareness is first, the basis, the only reality... and in that sense doesn't have anything to do with a living body. 

 

What to do with that? Well, I'm going to jump off a building of course, because fuck it all. :).

 

Nope. Nothing to do.

Edited by Guy1298, 15 January 2023 - 11:34 PM.

[Severian]

While I have also dived deep enough through meditation to touch upon this same 'bedrock' truth that awareness is foundational to all- what I was trying to point at is that , this is a remarkabley different state/experience than awareness channeled through a nervous system (period)/one capable of doing so with conscious intent-

It seems curious to me that whats available to us from the thousand year plus game of telephone that the spiritual systems have to offer, is almost totally in the vein of 'transcend/escape/demonize ' the body... There's really not any I'm aware of that see the body as a critical piece of the puzzle

Which I think is quite interesting, especially given Nature's 'transcend AND INCLUDE way of evolving.


It seems to me that mind-body is an indivisible quality- and that real progress/achieving potential can only occur if we simultaneously expand ourselves in both realms...

I think your jhana experiences would be quite different were your brain half the size/complexity it is now.

Or for that matter if your normal diet was McDonald's 3 times a day, or if you didn't exercise at all.

Edited by Severian, 16 January 2023 - 04:21 PM.

[RiseUp]

Very likely you're doing self-inquiry much better than myself. :)

Don't see it that way. I'm new and learning. Have appreciated knowing I can move my attention though. Tried explaining to someone and was given a weird look, so doubtful I'll do that again.

 

 

For me, alternating samatha meditation with self-inquiry makes sense. Samatha is calming meditation, extremely stable when it's good, and with Jhana it's like a black hole of stability, one-pointedness, pleasure, and happiness. My self-inquiry is unstable and so its results are unstable. So for me, samatha is preparation of mind for self-inquiry. Perhaps self-inquiry should ultimately be done constantly at all times, but it just doesn't cut it for me. I know of a few times I tried self-inquiry constantly and eventually it came to be that my emotions were just fucked up and I had to step back and rethink the approach, usually I just saw that I was emotionally unbalanced and decided to do meditation on the breath (which always led me back to a stable emotional state).

 

It also kind of makes sense from the standpoint of Buddhism. Samatha meditation prepares the mind for insight. And, in my opinion, self-inquiry is an insight practice. Though it's an insight contrary to early Buddhist theory (subject to interpretation).  

 

Then what I'm once again reminded is each has their own way. I enjoy the attention movement because it shuts off my thoughts and brings emptiness, but not in a negative way. Haven't asked questions. Enjoy shutting up my mind and the relief it brings. Afterwards things flow better, but not every time. Sometimes my emotions get the best of me. Self doubt, uncertainty, not enough time etc...

 

Appreciate you taking the time. :)

[Guy1298]

I think the issue with identifying with mind and body is that they are destined to die, unpredictably and possibly painfully. The personality in mind craves for its meaning while seeing itself and its loved ones decay and die, or merely struggling endlessly to find permanent satisfaction without yield.

 

At times, it might be worthwhile to discard identification with mind, body, and world, to see from a different angle. Perhaps an angle from the eternal. Or perhaps from a mind brainwashed by Ajativada https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Ajātivāda.

 

And I'd bet there's plenty of bypassing in it, even as I practice it. Happiness that only requires I sit for 5-6 hours? Yes, please. I've utterly failed at the happiness in mind, body, and world. But, I hear these spiritual disciplines confirm what I see that all this is Dukkha and stuff, yeah, that makes sense to me. Yes, please, 6 hours to happiness devoid of thought. What of my body, mind, world, and life? 

 

Regardless, it's something I enjoy.

[Guy1298]

 

 

Tried explaining to someone and was given a weird look, so doubtful I'll do that again.

 

 

 

I've had times when I felt that I was explaining that which was nearest the truth as far as I know it. Later, I realized that the person I explained it to didn't understand a thing that I said. :). 

Generally, the perspectives gained from self-inquiry (and other practices) are met with confusion. If I probe my life experiences, I realize that in order to arrive at where I am now, I have really traumatized myself. So I think for most people to understand would require peering into an abyss of fear with nothing to take hold of. So... I don't blame them for not understanding. Either that, or I'm really just a bit odd. ;)

Edited by Guy1298, 17 January 2023 - 08:54 AM.

[RiseUp]

Tried explaining to someone and was given a weird look, so doubtful I'll do that again.

I've had times when I felt that I was explaining that which was nearest the truth as far as I know it. Later, I realized that the person I explained it to didn't understand a thing that I said. :).

Generally, the perspectives gained from self-inquiry (and other practices) are met with confusion. If I probe my life experiences, I realize that in order to arrive at where I am now, I have really traumatized myself. So I think for most people to understand would require peering into an abyss of fear with nothing to take hold of. So... I don't blame them for not understanding. Either that, or I'm really just a bit odd. ;)

Using my phone so not sure of formatting.

Will you explain what you mean by probing your life experiences and to arrive where you are now you’ve really traumatized yourself.

Don’t find you odd from my perspective. Seems you are seeking peace/happiness and found some while sitting for hours which I’m unable to accomplish. It’s not in me.

Think I’ll begin asking a question. Right off hand my mind laughed because it seems like it will involve my mind. I’ll give it a go though and see what comes. Now to create a question :) any advice?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guy1298]

I was just thinking about the amounts of fear and seemingly "going crazy" that comes with spiritual seeking. At times, I might say it was traumatizing. 

 

 

No advice on questions at the moment. :)

Edited by Guy1298, 18 January 2023 - 12:13 AM.

[pharmer]

 

Tried explaining to someone and was given a weird look, so doubtful I'll do that again.
 

I've had times when I felt that I was explaining that which was nearest the truth as far as I know it. Later, I realized that the person I explained it to didn't understand a thing that I said. :).

Generally, the perspectives gained from self-inquiry (and other practices) are met with confusion. If I probe my life experiences, I realize that in order to arrive at where I am now, I have really traumatized myself. So I think for most people to understand would require peering into an abyss of fear with nothing to take hold of. So... I don't blame them for not understanding. Either that, or I'm really just a bit odd. ;)

 

It's just one of those things where "you had to be there" :) I don't blame anyone for not understanding or believing the profound revelations you see when you're there and there just aren't words sufficient to explain it.

I've heard people getting very emotional when explaining their encounters with God. Sounds exactly as untranslatable as a profound trip and many of the same ideas overlap. Especially the part about being swept away by emotion.

 

Occasionally I'll encounter someone who is curious and try this on them - If you want to talk to God here's (mesc, lsd, etc) the telephone

Edited by pharmer, 18 January 2023 - 04:05 PM.