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Pasteurization drives me crazy


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#1 mumm

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Posted 04 January 2021 - 11:56 AM

In the past I thinked that when I got clean spawn nothing will stop the success. But since summer I start to get trich when spawning to bulk each f time. I thought that the problem was that I began to use larger volumes and perhaps 2 hours of pasteurization which works great before isn't enough. I started 4 hours, but still got green. Sometimes I simultaneously got fruits.

 

How I should escape from those evil circumstances? I use 23qt presto and load it with 3 bags / 4qt each. Maintain 158F for 4 hours. How I can be more precise with it?



#2 TVCasualty

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Posted 04 January 2021 - 12:33 PM

Troubleshooting your recurring problem will require more information about how you're going about the whole process, starting from your source of spores.

 

Taking note of where and when contamination shows up is also very helpful info to have, as well as where and how you let it colonize after spawning it.



#3 mumm

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Posted 04 January 2021 - 01:43 PM

thanks for response. I use a agar plates from MS then LC - tested it on plates again and finally inject to rye. So the preparation is very clean and well tested. Trich shows at colonization stage when everything laid in monotubs. Usually right before fruiting or during the fruiting. I noticed it shows on the surfaces and never inside of the substrate.



#4 FunG

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Posted 04 January 2021 - 03:44 PM

It's time to disinfect your grow area.

Same thing "was" happening to me. As it turns out "trich" was in such a high concentration in my apt that I had to air out the place while washing the walls from top to bottom with lysol.

Healthy "unopened" cultured jars of myc would get specs of green mold that's how bad my place was... lysol man, a good cleaning of you're grow area atleast once a year.

If it is fact a high concentration of trich and not coming in from a jar of spawn.

Cause you can test a lc on agar but if it cross contaminates at some point it may be difficult to detect if the trich is in tiny small pockets on the interior of the spawn jar, I've had perfectly looking spawn jars that had it...barley noticable, I thought it was bruising but nope, it was trich. When that happens it's usually a result of contaminated spores and the entire culture should be thrown out from the beginning.

It's either one or the other but the hidden trich in otherwise healthy jars (tested on agar) is a rare occurance but when it happens you'll be scratching your head for a good while until you actually dig into a jar and examine the grains which is what I recommend you do with your spawn.

Just spoon it up bit by bit and try to find the smallest bit of green mold.

#5 PJammer24

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Posted 04 January 2021 - 05:10 PM

If you just recently increased the amount of substrate you are pasteurizing, there is a fair chance that your pasteurization process is as fault. I steam pasteurize large batches and it can take hours for the center to reach pasteurization temp. I use a digital thermometer to ensure the entire batch has reached pasteurization temps before I start the pasteurization timer. I pasteurize for 6 hours to ensure I get everything full pasteurized but that is overkill. If you ensure that the center has reached pasteurization temp, you can have success with far fewer hours.

 

You may have an issue with the spore count in your home. That can certainly become a problem over time, however, you should also look over your pasteurization tek. If you are using vermiculite, which is a good insulator, it can take longer to reach temps with certain techniques


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#6 FunG

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Posted 04 January 2021 - 05:50 PM

I didnt think to ask.

What kind of bulk substrate are you pasteurizing?

And are you using any additives like coffee grounds/worm castings/gympsum?

Edited by FunG, 04 January 2021 - 05:52 PM.


#7 Phish

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Posted 04 January 2021 - 06:19 PM

Call me the Phish The Blasphemer !!
But I say sterilize ALL your substrates. Ive had nothing but great success by killing everything in the pressure cooker.90 mins for qt jars. 2 hours for 4-5lb bags
Of course a clean living space helps a lot to keep contamination at bay.
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#8 ElPirana

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Posted 04 January 2021 - 06:50 PM

I had been getting a lot of contamination lately, mainly trich, in my tubs at fruiting stage. I sterilize all my substrates for the past couple years but the contamination was more recent. My spawn to sub ratio on the bad tubs was like 1:6 so I changed recently to a 1:1.5 or 1:2 ratio and now have three tubs pinning without contamination. I guess the point is that you can look at your whole process, identify what may have changed, then use that knowledge to try to narrow down the source of the problem.
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#9 Arathu

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Posted 04 January 2021 - 07:04 PM

 

Trich shows at colonization stage when everything laid in monotubs.

The Six Vectors of Contamination

  1. The Cultivator
  2. The Air
  3. The Media
  4. The Tools
  5. The Inoculum
  6. Mobile Contamination Units (MCU's)

(from Stamets, Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms)

 

It creates a mindset for me.....

 

Sterilization of substrates staying in a sterile, like the jars or bags, environment is fine........dumping that sterile "stuff" into a tub not so much IME......

 

I like pasteurization for wood masses (chips, stems, mulch and etc) and also use sterilization with jars and bags.....of course I like the outside the best....nothing like mom....

 

It's also one very real reason NOT to keep contaminated substrates around the grow area, as in same building.....it can be damned problematic in fact... 

 

A


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#10 PJammer24

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Posted 05 January 2021 - 02:24 PM

Call me the Phish The Blasphemer !!
But I say sterilize ALL your substrates. Ive had nothing but great success by killing everything in the pressure cooker.90 mins for qt jars. 2 hours for 4-5lb bags
Of course a clean living space helps a lot to keep contamination at bay.

 

what kinds of substrate are you using when you sterilize? If you are using non-nutritious substrates such as coir and verm, pasteurization is less important since there is nothing nutritious for contams to colonize. Proper pasteurization also becomes less of an issue when you are using high spawn ratios. 


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#11 Phish

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Posted 05 January 2021 - 09:32 PM

Call me the Phish The Blasphemer !!
But I say sterilize ALL your substrates. Ive had nothing but great success by killing everything in the pressure cooker.90 mins for qt jars. 2 hours for 4-5lb bags
Of course a clean living space helps a lot to keep contamination at bay.

what kinds of substrate are you using when you sterilize? If you are using non-nutritious substrates such as coir and verm, pasteurization is less important since there is nothing nutritious for contams to colonize. Proper pasteurization also becomes less of an issue when you are using high spawn ratios.
I sterilize my substrates, which are always manure based, when working with cubes and mexicana. I sterilize horse manure, ccm,and even Moose poo with tam rates so low,nearly non existent , that you probably wouldn't believe me.
Coir, CCM and Coarse Verm 1:1:1 is my go to for all my actives.Never Fails !!
I almost always spawn/sub at a 1:4 ratio also.

AND I ALWAYS CASE ALL MY SUBS... ALWAYS.

Ive always found pasteurization a crap shoot at best and a pita to boot with as many failures as successes, Ive been committed to sterilization for many years now, with bran enriched wood based substrates for non actives included.

Edited by Phish, 05 January 2021 - 09:34 PM.


#12 PJammer24

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Posted 06 January 2021 - 11:16 AM

 

 

Call me the Phish The Blasphemer !!
But I say sterilize ALL your substrates. Ive had nothing but great success by killing everything in the pressure cooker.90 mins for qt jars. 2 hours for 4-5lb bags
Of course a clean living space helps a lot to keep contamination at bay.

what kinds of substrate are you using when you sterilize? If you are using non-nutritious substrates such as coir and verm, pasteurization is less important since there is nothing nutritious for contams to colonize. Proper pasteurization also becomes less of an issue when you are using high spawn ratios.
I sterilize my substrates, which are always manure based, when working with cubes and mexicana. I sterilize horse manure, ccm,and even Moose poo with tam rates so low,nearly non existent , that you probably wouldn't believe me.
Coir, CCM and Coarse Verm 1:1:1 is my go to for all my actives.Never Fails !!
I almost always spawn/sub at a 1:4 ratio also.

AND I ALWAYS CASE ALL MY SUBS... ALWAYS.

Ive always found pasteurization a crap shoot at best and a pita to boot with as many failures as successes, Ive been committed to sterilization for many years now, with bran enriched wood based substrates for non actives included.

 

 

 

What is the spawn to sub ratio you are using? If you are using a lot of spawn, it may not matter whether you pasteurize or sterilize since it colonizes so quickly. Do you mix your sub and spawn in open air?

 

Ever since investing in proper temp control, Pasteurization has become set and forget for me and I can't remember the last time I had issues.

 

The only time I can recall having trouble with pasteurization is prior to precise temp control when I would accidentally let it get to hot and sterilize it... lol...


Edited by PJammer24, 06 January 2021 - 11:18 AM.


#13 Phish

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Posted 06 January 2021 - 06:37 PM

Call me the Phish The Blasphemer !!
But I say sterilize ALL your substrates. Ive had nothing but great success by killing everything in the pressure cooker.90 mins for qt jars. 2 hours for 4-5lb bags
Of course a clean living space helps a lot to keep contamination at bay.

what kinds of substrate are you using when you sterilize? If you are using non-nutritious substrates such as coir and verm, pasteurization is less important since there is nothing nutritious for contams to colonize. Proper pasteurization also becomes less of an issue when you are using high spawn ratios.
I sterilize my substrates, which are always manure based, when working with cubes and mexicana. I sterilize horse manure, ccm,and even Moose poo with tam rates so low,nearly non existent , that you probably wouldn't believe me.
Coir, CCM and Coarse Verm 1:1:1 is my go to for all my actives.Never Fails !!
I almost always spawn/sub at a 1:4 ratio also.

AND I ALWAYS CASE ALL MY SUBS... ALWAYS.

Ive always found pasteurization a crap shoot at best and a pita to boot with as many failures as successes, Ive been committed to sterilization for many years now, with bran enriched wood based substrates for non actives included.


What is the spawn to sub ratio you are using? If you are using a lot of spawn, it may not matter whether you pasteurize or sterilize since it colonizes so quickly. Do you mix your sub and spawn in open air?

Ever since investing in proper temp control, Pasteurization has become set and forget for me and I can't remember the last time I had issues.

The only time I can recall having trouble with pasteurization is prior to precise temp control when I would accidentally let it get to hot and sterilize it... lol...
I use a 1:4 spawn ratio. 1 qt of spawn to 4 qts of substrate. Maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post.
I'm always looking for a better mousetrap. If you could share your process to pasteurize PJ, I may be willing to give it another try.
But it seems like I always had to babysit my substrate in a pasteurization process to maintain proper temps for 2 hours.
Sterilization in a pc, I can walk away from it for 90 minutes.

#14 HrVanker

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Posted 06 January 2021 - 08:09 PM

I've been using the bucket method since the beginning and haven't had any problems. But I have been trying to modify it to hold temp for as long as possible. My last run went like this:

 

I put two 5gal buckets inside each other, put my coir, verm, and lime inside then dumped in the boiling water. I then put a lid on the top bucket and put the whole thing in the utility sink in the basement. Put a cinder block on the bucket to hold it down, and filled the sink with hot water from the spigot.

 

After several hours, the air temp in the bucket was still above 200F (according to meat thermometer stuck through the lid) and the material was a bit too hot to touch. I was using a relatively small amount of sub, but I suspect that it will work well with larger volumes too.



#15 pastyoureyes

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Posted 07 January 2021 - 04:22 AM

I've been using the bucket method since the beginning and haven't had any problems. But I have been trying to modify it to hold temp for as long as possible. My last run went like this:
 
I put two 5gal buckets inside each other, put my coir, verm, and lime inside then dumped in the boiling water. I then put a lid on the top bucket and put the whole thing in the utility sink in the basement. Put a cinder block on the bucket to hold it down, and filled the sink with hot water from the spigot.
 
After several hours, the air temp in the bucket was still above 200F (according to meat thermometer stuck through the lid) and the material was a bit too hot to touch. I was using a relatively small amount of sub, but I suspect that it will work well with larger volumes too.


A beverage cooler holds heat for the several hours needed for pasteurization.

200*F is too hot for pasteurization, I aim for somewhere between 140-160*F

#16 HrVanker

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Posted 07 January 2021 - 04:42 AM

Right, 160°F is ideal for pasteurization. That was my first time going through all that trouble, so I wasn't sure just how effective it would be. You could probably get away with a double bucket, and maybe a blanket of it's particularly cool. With enough practice, I could probably dial in the temp.

I prefer 5gal buckets because they are cheaper than a cooler, store easier, seal better, and are a bit more versatile. But it's basically a "6 of one..." situation.




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