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Expand mycelium? A lot for a little.


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#21 TVCasualty

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 05:49 PM

. Either go straight to grains with the spore syringe and use that jar as a matter culture for g2g and continue expanding out from there...

 

To clarify, do you mean shooting spores directly on to sterilized whole grain as a way to make spawn?

 

 

FWIW to those who may not be aware, that approach would not be an example of "best practices" with regards to growing fungi and the vast majority of growers would strongly advise against it.



#22 FunG

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 06:24 PM

Yes, spore syringe to grains.

I need to remember to continuously remind people if they go that route then to only shoot up 1 jar of grains and monitor it until germination occurs.

Just incase the syringe is contaminated.

If everything germinates clean then mass innoc. No different then testing the syringe on agar the only upside to agar is the ability to clean up a dirty syringe if its contaminated.

#23 pastyoureyes

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 06:46 PM

. Either go straight to grains with the spore syringe and use that jar as a matter culture for g2g and continue expanding out from there...


 
To clarify, do you mean shooting spores directly on to sterilized whole grain as a way to make spawn?
 
 
FWIW to those who may not be aware, that approach would not be an example of "best practices" with regards to growing fungi and the vast majority of growers would strongly advise against it.

Who decides what "best practices" are?

#24 Stencill86

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 08:46 PM

I only use ms to grains, and than g2g after that. I just ran about 300+ jars in the last few months with zero contamination. Without a fancy flow hood. So saying that it’s not the best practice is kinda bullshit because my success rate is far greater than most.

Any practice is good practice in this hobby if you ask me, I love seeing the ways people adapt and are able to grow without all of these “limitations” that most members seem to push forward. Just let people grow, it’s a community.

#25 coorsmikey

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 10:26 PM

I run spore solution to grain all the time and it works. I do it because I often have way to many projects going at once so I am looking to skip steps and I am willing to accepted the results I get. Now that being said I won't go all all out and say its the "best" method I know. I make my own prints and syringe so I am quite confident of my work. Still that is pure convenience as I know from experience that I can have better results working with tested isolates. There is a huge difference between "what works" with mediocre results in large quantities (IE 300 jars) than "best practices" of consistent repeatable, reliable, results with predictable flushes and yields.

Best Practice is a general consensus amongst experienced cultivators of standards that produce the best result that are known or documented. There is nothing wrong with "Short Cuts" as long as they labeled as such so people that are just joining in can make the choice themselves. Everyones situation is going to be different. Some people really can't wrap their head around the science of mycology. That doesn't mean that they cannot grow mushrooms. I may just mean that they will not be able to grow mushroom well. 

People are wired differently, some may prefer to get a few mushrooms at all, while others may prefer to master the art of growing mushrooms to the best of their abilities. Its just to bad that some people see gaps in communication as "limitations" and reply in offense to what really is just the lack of a good label. Lazyman's grows or Mad Scientist grows? I see Microbe active again but not Cue. Both good examples in this situation as one of them is about mastering the art and science and the other just wants to grow as much as he can with the least amount of effort.

 

I only use ms to grains, and than g2g after that. I just ran about 300+ jars in the last few months with zero contamination. Without a fancy flow hood. So saying that it’s not the best practice is kinda bullshit because my success rate is far greater than most.

Any practice is good practice in this hobby if you ask me, I love seeing the ways people adapt and are able to grow without all of these “limitations” that most members seem to push forward. Just let people grow, it’s a community.

I am guilty of no fancy hood as well, I do spores  to grain. I have done the science and "Best Practices" I can be hypricrititcal to as my mood always change (Mushroom helps that) I do that because I make the choice to save time. If I was growing for quality or to impress someone I would most definitely be using "best practices". If I were to run a business I would use the "best practices" available so it would not be based on "the bare minimum to succeed" because there would be a vested interest. I would like to ask who you refer to as "Most"? Are you referring to the neophytes that come here to learn from people that use Best Practice or the ones that claim that their way is the only way? I use the absolute "Worst practices" No wait not the worst but close as some people think that their bathroom is the cleanest area in their house, I on the other hand do most of my work in the kitchen which is the most cleanest room in my house because it  gets cleaned and sanitized before and after I use it. I do open air stuff all the time though. In my circle cuz other than you guys, My success rate is far better than anyone else around "most" as my cat, kids, or my gf can't grow at all. So I am curious to what standards you hold yourself to when you say "best practice is kinda bullshit"? While the next sentence says any practice is good? Is it good? or is it all Bullshit?

I am thinking about going to see a doctor to what seems in my mind about something that is serious. Are you saying that seeking the one that is using "Best Practices" for success is bullshit and that I should go with the doctor that has only done things his own way for his first 300 patients? The Plus side is that doctor has zero failures or deaths on his hand too. 

In your opinion? Do you think this community would be better served if we did away with "Best Practices? Do you think that we would have less "Bullshit" and a better community without offering "Best Practices"? Would you continue to support and contribute to the community with "Bullshit Best Practices Not Permitted?'

 

How about I turn this into a poll? Lets Vote? Bullshit Best Practices vs Bare Minimum to have Success? 


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#26 FunG

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 10:56 PM

Chances are if you're using micropore tape in place of synthetic filter discs you're not running at "best practices" I for one would love to never have to transfer another f'ing jar inside of a glovebox but lack the space and funds for a flowhood but at the same time why stop there?

Best practices would require a inspection by the FDA and horticultural comission and I dont think anyone on the internet in all the cultivation forums would pass their tests and guidelines for ensuring proper "techniques" were being met.

I'd love to have a barn to concert into a farm by building a walk in autoclave and clean air labratory like Hamilton show cased during his trip to the "truffle brothers" farm in the Netherlands.

Maybe then I'd invest time in isolating out the strongest most prolific substrain for mass propigation but then again, a competitor could always just clone off a piece of dry tissue and steal all the hours of isolation work plus to be held to high standards in the public light is different then farming in the dark. I'm guilty of dropping mushrooms on my floor but they're usually swept and mopped daily, I also sanitize my hands and handle the vegetables with gloves on. Is that a better practice then someone who may scratch themselves all over, pick their nose and handle motor oil without degreasing before deciding to pick?

Or is that deviating away from the cultivation stand point of growing?

I'm confused....

#27 pastyoureyes

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 11:52 PM

I only use ms to grains, and than g2g after that. I just ran about 300+ jars in the last few months with zero contamination. Without a fancy flow hood. So saying that it’s not the best practice is kinda bullshit because my success rate is far greater than most.
Any practice is good practice in this hobby if you ask me, I love seeing the ways people adapt and are able to grow without all of these “limitations” that most members seem to push forward. Just let people grow, it’s a community.

I think there are varying degrees of good and bad practices in this hobby. Not everyone has the skills and/or equipment to adhere to "industry standards" or "best practices".

Some things are obviously bad practices. You wouldnt handle mold and try to do any type of clean work.

There are grey areas like shooting spores directly to grain. It may not be the ideal best thing to do but it can certainly be justified in some circumstances. If I have a spore syringe with a few CCs left and I need to clear out the syringe for another culture I'd rather nocc up grains if I have them prepared and have already made my LCs and agar.

PF tek isn't a "best practice" but it certainly has its place and most of us here started by injecting spores into cakes.

My point is that just because something isn't a "best practice" doesnt make it bad. At the same time that doesnt make bad habits good ones.

#28 coorsmikey

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 12:02 AM

No matter how much the bees say the honey is better the flies still love shit.

#29 Stencill86

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 12:11 AM

Honestly Mikey, that’s way too much to read right now, I said all I needed or wanted to say, so if your looking for a bunch of arguments with that long ass comment, you win man. I can’t even handle the sarcasm, I take my 4 yr old more seriously.

#30 jrh

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 09:36 AM

So, this is strictly a semantic matter, but as a software developer I prefer the term "better practices." Different people, different teams, different organizations are all starting from different places and working within different constraints. When someone says "best practice," there's often the implication that everyone should be doing things that way, and there's no consideration for how far apart from that someone is starting, or what challenges may hinder them from getting there. It's also a literal statement that there will never be a better way of doing things with an implication that you know every different way that anyone is doing everything, and none of them is even equal to what you're suggesting.

 

I understand most people don't intend to throw all that baggage at someone when giving "best practice" advice but often a little cry for help ends up with a pile on of people telling someone what an asshole they are for not having already done something differently. Or at least that's how it feels like to the person who's asking for help.

 

As a newbie, trust me, I also understand that we ask the wrong questions. We get into trouble so vast and have no clue about the things we've already done wrong or the opportunities we had to do course corrections but didn't, because we don't have that level of experience yet. I know we are frustrating.

 

I also understand there are people here who have been trying to help us newbies out for maybe 20 years or more, and it gets old saying the same things over and over again. It gets old documenting demonstrated solutions and having people ignore all that effort.

 

So, enough empathy soapbox bullshit...

 

Maybe, consider your audience when asking questions or giving advice. When asking questions, give enough information about what's going on and how you got there, and for goodness sake include pictures. When offering advice, consider whether your advice is more suitable to someone who's also been doing this 20+ years, or someone who's only been doing this 3 months, or whatever.

 

All I know is it's time for my 2nd cup of coffee.

 

Flame on if you want.


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#31 sandman

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 09:39 AM

Hard to say what best practices are, but its really fucking easy to say what they aint. 


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#32 TVCasualty

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 09:42 AM

 

 

. Either go straight to grains with the spore syringe and use that jar as a matter culture for g2g and continue expanding out from there...


 
To clarify, do you mean shooting spores directly on to sterilized whole grain as a way to make spawn?
 
 
FWIW to those who may not be aware, that approach would not be an example of "best practices" with regards to growing fungi and the vast majority of growers would strongly advise against it.

Who decides what "best practices" are?

 

 

 

Those who work in the commercial industry who have money on the line and so can't really afford to use any approaches that don't have a proven track record of success.


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#33 TVCasualty

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:15 AM

When someone says "best practice," there's often the implication that everyone should be doing things that way,

 

Since the phrase comes from engineering, it means exactly that. But they make bridges and airplanes and stuff that absolutely must not fail for obvious reasons. There are also strict protocols/"best practices" for sterile technique used by institutions and research labs where fuckups can be expensive or deadly, too.

 

In this context, there's a bit more wiggle room for what they can entail but the point of using the phrase is that there are some ways to do this stuff that have a much higher probability of success than others. And since the point of this site is to teach people how to do it who don't know anything at all when they start (generally speaking) it's arguably better to promote those approaches over approaches with lower probabilities of consistent success.

 

So we don't need to use what are considered "best practices" for a Biosafety Level 3 lab or whatever for home mushroom growing, but there are methods that have evolved over the past few decades that work a hell of a lot more consistently than others (especially for those who are new to mycology) and all I'm trying to do is promote those above the rest.

 

I ironically use the phrase as a shorthand way to imply all this stuff but then I often have to go back and clarify it anyway so I guess it doesn't work. The only alternative as far as I can tell is to just go back to bickering about which teks work vs. suck and let the rookies try to guess whose recommendations are credible and based on experience vs. misinformation and speculation.

 

My views come from trying to help people learn how to grow fungi online for 15 years, and some stuff obviously works a hell of a lot better than others. I'm assuming that a new grower would appreciate learning those methods first.


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#34 jrh

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:28 AM

FYI, I've never read a post of yours that seemed ill-considered or like you hadn't gone back and edited your words a few times before sharing with the world at large. 



#35 cujoloki

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:42 AM

I would go to at least 10 agar first. Then fridge the rest and see how those grow. You need 1 good plate to expand many many times from. Many spore solutions come already contaminated and the contaminated grow well at room temp therefore I would keep it cool until I needed it again as well. Who knows how sterile it may be. Putting all your spore solution into one vessel is a compromising risk, in my opinion. I would divide it exponentially into/onto agar. If it is an important project I would make 29 plates for the fun of it. Might find a really aggressive grower then.
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#36 jrh

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 10:53 AM

No matter how much the bees say the honey is better the flies still love shit.

 

You realize of course that whereas we may use honey to expand mycelium or preserve mushrooms, shit is much better for actually growing them.



#37 rockyfungus

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 11:00 AM

My woodlovers don't care for the shit...

 

 

I would go to at least 10 agar first. Then fridge the rest and see how those grow. You need 1 good plate to expand many many times from. Many spore solutions come already contaminated and the contaminated grow well at room temp therefore I would keep it cool until I needed it again as well. Who knows how sterile it may be. Putting all your spore solution into one vessel is a compromising risk, in my opinion. I would divide it exponentially into/onto agar. If it is an important project I would make 29 plates for the fun of it. Might find a really aggressive grower then.

Are you saying make 10 transfers before going to grain???That's a waste of your time and a waste of genetics IMHO. Better to go right to grain the earliest clean transfer you have, this way you have a multi-spore and can isolate the best fruits. As you go 10 transfers out you're weeding out possible desirable genetics.
 



#38 cujoloki

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 11:36 AM

No not 10 transfers. 10 originals. Why stop at 10? Who knows if that 29th plate has a badass fruiting strain that makes really good fruits.

Edited by cujoloki, 12 February 2021 - 11:43 AM.


#39 cujoloki

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 11:42 AM

I could see this happening if trying to revive 20 year old spores say.. Going to grain with the best specimen is a good next step, I suppose. I enjoy watching myco babies/mycelium grow much more than the average fellow, I suppose. I use ketchup cups too which is no where near the "best" practice you can employ, I suppose. Hope I cleared up my addition. I would make a shit ton of agar. One will be clear enough to transfer from by sheer force of multiples!

#40 pastyoureyes

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 02:00 PM

Hard to say what best practices are, but its really fucking easy to say what they aint.


Example
Pretty easy to say using metal lids on quart jars is not a best practice. It is however a very common practice and it does in fact work. How many here and on commercial farms use metal lids on jars for spawn production? Metal rusts, should we start telling everyone not to use metal jars lids because it isn't a "best practice"? Many many teks on here would fall under the not "best practice" category but would fall under the "generally accepted practice".

My philosophy when talking to new growers is to present them with my own reasoning for doing or not doing something. Explain any advantages/disadvantages as I see them with each particular technique.

. Either go straight to grains with the spore syringe and use that jar as a matter culture for g2g and continue expanding out from there...


 
To clarify, do you mean shooting spores directly on to sterilized whole grain as a way to make spawn?
 
 
FWIW to those who may not be aware, that approach would not be an example of "best practices" with regards to growing fungi and the vast majority of growers would strongly advise against it.

Who decides what "best practices" are?
 
 
Those who work in the commercial industry who have money on the line and so can't really afford to use any approaches that don't have a proven track record of success.

Is there some compilation of these practices anywhere? It would be very helpful to link to when advising someone to use them instead of just informing them retroactively each time they are not following them. If not perhaps there should be.




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