91 replies to this topic

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

So I have a couple of questions hoping you guys can straighten me out on this. Went to town today to pick up ALL my supplies. Too much indecision of which products to purchase and after mistakenly buying the wrong solvent the other day, decided to pull the plug and do some more research.

 

Came back with a strainer and a cheeseburger haha

 

 

The other day I did find some 100 percent pure lye crystals though. Hoping this will work eh?

 

 

 

Since I just returned my coleman camp fuel due to others saying not to use it for it's naphtha because of the blended nature. There is green dye and rust inhibitors in it. I was hoping someone could confirm that this other brand I found should be okay before I buy it. I have a link to the MSDS  below and as far as I can tell it seems okay but I am unsure

 

 

Recochem Camping Fuel, sorry hard to find an image for it they are all copyright

 

From the link below

 

Under composition/information on ingredients in section 3. is as follows

 

Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated light, % composition is 100

 

https://www.uapinc.c...NG FUEL ANG.pdf

 

This is the exact composition but it is over my head

 

https://ilrc.ucf.edu...hp?sample_id=33

 

 

The only other stuff I can find locally seems to be ronsonal lighter fluid. But it appears to be more expensive

 

https://ilrc.ucf.edu...hp?sample_id=33

 

 

The second question is what makes a good container for the acid warming portion. I have seen some tecks suggest using a crock pot. Does this process damage your cook ware at all? should a guy go out and purchase a dedicated stainless steel pot for this purpose?

 

I think going with mason jars for swirling the solutions around, or maybe a recycled glass apple juice jug? It looks like I have to find a glass turkey baster as well. And probably a glass casserole dish for evaporation?

 

Oh and a funnel..

 

This next trip for supplies should be a little better haha

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[Alpoehi]

I can't say anything to the solvents or lye crystals ... but with the glassware always use fireproof lab glassware or at least pyrex.
Chemical reactions can cause heat and you may want to cool down the glass at the same time you are stirring your lye into it.
Also don't forget getting some stirring rods made from glass.

[Chips101]

I like to clean up my product with bestine rubber cement remover.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Juthro]

You might find this old thread useful, Rooster.  Though it does not directly answer your questions.   https://mycotopia.ne...-collaboration/

 

Sorry for not being much help, but I will defer to wiser minds then my own.  Good luck, and stay safe.

[Juthro]

Sorry for the double post, but as far as naphtha goes, cant you get VM&P naphtha where ever they sell painting supplies ? 

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

Yeah that is the last place I can think to check brother, there is a dedicated paint store in town. For some reason I don't think we have that brand in Canada I have been keeping an eye out for it. Perhaps they have an equivalent there

 

There always seems to be a brand issue when trying to find stuff up here.

[Phineas_Carmichael]

That SDS for the camping fuel looks good, thanks for finding & posting it. 100% light hydrotreated naphtha, just like KleanStrip VM&P naphtha. However, companies are only required to list hazardous ingredients on the SDS. So, if any additives aren't classified as hazardous they won't be listed. Make sure to evaporate a small sample and check for any residue before you extract anything with it.

VM&P means "Varnish Maker's & Painter's." It's a type of naphtha, not a brand. Varnish Makers need pure solvent to thin their varnish so they get a special type of naphtha. I suspected you were in Canada from the French on the lye label, a paint store might be your best bet.

I can't find the SDS for that particular lye, but it looks like good honest sodium hydroxide. Some drain openers are labeled 100% lye but actually contain aluminum flakes as a way to mechanically break up a clog the hydroxide softens & they are clearly visible in the product. The fact this is labeled as lye crystals and not drain opener is a good sign, just give it a visual check to make sure it's a white crystalline solid.

The only thing you'll want to avoid for the acid portion is aluminum cookware, acids can react with aluminum to form water soluble salts. Not really a problem unless you're drinking the acid solution, but better safe than sorry. No need to buy a dedicated extraction pot, you're just making bark tea after all.

Lab glass is best, but not really necessary. Mason jars are fine for small extractions, a 1gallon wine (or Apple juice) jug is good for larger, just make sure not to reuse regular glass for multiple extractions. Over time, lye & heavy temperature swings can weaken the glass & cause it to shatter seemingly at random.

When making the lye solution wear gloves & goggles, use cold water, put the container in an ice bath, and add the lye to the water slowly, with stirring between additions. Check the temp every so often too just to make sure it's not getting too close to boiling. 40g/L should be plenty enough lye to get you a pH 14 solution, you can go as high as 80g/L but more than that and you're just wasting lye.

Pyrex 9-inch pie plates make spectacular evaporating dishes.

Thanks for linking that old thread Juthro! Saves me the trouble of tracking it down...

I'm about to head into work shortly (double-time for working Sunday!) but I'll be around if you have any more questions Rooster. If not on my breaks, then definitely when I'm done in the lab.

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

Yes sir you would be correct on your observation of the dual language branding in Canada.

 

I appreciate the detailed response thank you Phineas.

 

Figure I may as well try the evap test on the Rechocem camp fuel brand if I can't find any naphtha at the paint store. Thanks for clearing up that bit for me too I will have to remember "Varnish Maker's & Painter's is the abbreviation for it not a brand name

 

Starting to get the tingle of excitement that I may succeed at some point

 

Going to start small on my first extraction in case I make a mess of it, hell I might even go buy a lab coat so I can feel like a stud carefully stirring jars out in my garage

 

 

I will go do some more reading until I manage to gather all my supplies, thanks guys

[bezevo]

Not sure how  similar  eBay and amazon are in Canada .. but  you can get really good  new Chinese knock off or name brand Lab glass cheap from both  and on eBay some really good quality used stuff ...  i recommend  spending cpl bucks for the nice glass and avoid plastic and mason jars ect ...  this is just advice  feel free to do as you wish .......

you can also buy naptha , heptain ,  lye ect , on amazon .well in the U.S. you can .

but please  double check your safety procedure check list  and have  stuff on hand to neutralize any  spills/mishaps .. have  vinegar to neutralize spilled base  , kitty litter or fullers earth to absorb spills . A fire extinguisher , have proper ventilation . use  safety equipment like gloves  goggles respirators ect .. you can get good quality safety gear on amazon 

 

Please be safe................. HAVE FUN STORMING THE CASTLE KIDS !

Edited by bezevo, 21 March 2021 - 03:00 PM.

[bezevo]

Also check some states like texas for instants  restrict some lab glass like Large Pyrex media bottles or  separator funnels  ..also  some solvents and lye ...   so use discretion and be aware . in these cases  cash at a big box  might be a good idea . buy a  99cent drop cloth and a cpl 50cent foam brushs with your gallon of naptha

 

Bez

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

The more research I have been doing it seems to be quite a bit harder to find pure naptha up here for some reason. There are a few threads titled finding naptha in Cadada and it appears folk are having the same issue I am.  Guys tried to order from the states and saying they wont even ship it online.

 

So today  I went and purchased a small bottle of the recochem brand camp fuel and did the evap test on my shiny new pie plate. It evaps quickly and smells clean but unfortunately there appears to be a bit of a residue left behind when I hold it up to a light. The paint store was a bust so it looks as though my only option is going to be ronsonal lighter fluid. I have read others saying it evaps clean. A bit pricey but I seem to be out of options

 

 

No glass baster in town so going to have to order that online, figured I might as well check out some glass while I am at it

Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 24 March 2021 - 11:59 AM.

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

Does not appear to be very oily or waxy, when I run my finger over it versus unstained portion of the glass the feel is marginally different

 

View from straight on no residue appears

 

 

tilted towards the light for the next two

 

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Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 24 March 2021 - 01:39 PM.

[bezevo]

FROM READING   THE general opinion is a slight dry  water stain looking residue with evap test can be ignored .. its more substantial  oily or waxy contams  . that you don't want in your Space dust that's to be avoided .

 

i am not a Chemist  .i failed Chemistry 40+ yrs ago because my 16 yr old lab partners MAGNIFICENT  GRAVITY DEFYING Breast put my 17 yr old brain into neutral . slightly distracted .

 

but from pics you posted  i would guess your good .to Go........ JUST  a Guess ..........lets see what the Other internet experts that know more than me have to say ?

BEZ

Edited by bezevo, 24 March 2021 - 01:27 PM.

[Phineas_Carmichael]

Here's a totally unnecessary organic chemistry lesson because I'm a flaming dork:

Naphtha is a catch-all term for liquid carbon compounds distilled from crude oil, coal tar, or even natural gas. Light naphtha (your recochem camp fuel & our VM&P naphtha in the States) is a mix of liquid hydrocarbons that boil out in the 30*C to 90*C range and have 5-6 carbon atoms. Heavy naphtha is a mix of liquids that distill off between 90*C & 200*C and have 6-12 carbon atoms. Ligroin is "light-heavy naphtha," the fraction that boils from 90*C to 140*C and has mostly 7-8 carbon atoms.

I use lab-grade ligroin (it smells just like VM&P naphtha and Zippo fuel/ronsonal lighter fluid) at work and when a small sample evaporates it looks exactly like your shiny new pie plate. As long as you can't really scrape up the residue with a razor blade you should be perfectly fine with that camp fuel.

Turkey basters work just okay for separating. They're really not precise enough to pull off all the solvent from the top of an extraction unless it's in a very skinny container. A seperatory funnel is A1, the best thing you can get, but if you can find a 1L or larger pyrex (or HDPE plastic) "gravy separator" from a kitchen store that's pretty much just as good. Likewise, an HDPE turkey baster is ok to use too, but you have to be sure it's HDPE plastic. Some of the other plastics will work as well, but I don't know off the top of my head which ones are safe vs high/low pH and non-polar solvents.

And now some words of caution:

Like bezevo said, some localities have specific laws about lab glass. I haven't heard of any out of Canada, but I am by no stretch of the imagination a lawyer of any kind, and the .com Internet (where we are now & where I spend most of my time) in general is pretty Americentric.

Be very careful of pictures with any portion of your hands in them. This one's okay (except that it reveals your skin color & perhaps your biological sex) but modern cameras often have resolution high enough to to capture fingerprints well enough for them to be identifiable. Make sure to crop your fingertips out!

Keep a "sport-cap" water bottle of baking soda solution in your lab space for neutralizing spills on skin. If you get lye on your skin & wash it off with vinegar like that ridiculous scene in fight club it'll sting like a motherfucker. Baking soda is amphoteric, meaning it can actually neutralize acids and bases. If your skin starts to hurt in the lab you don't have to try and figure out if it's an acid burn or a base burn, just reach for the neutralization bottle & flush the area well. Then flush with copious amounts of plain water.

You're really on the right track, Rooster, keep it up! I have no doubt you'll be successful on your first (small-scale) try when you get everything together.

Sorry for writing another book. I just really love talking about this stuff!

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 25 March 2021 - 12:23 AM.

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

Well that seems to work just fine considering I enjoy reading it all, not one to shy away from a long post. They are usually the best one's once a guy takes the time to read them

Glad to hear that the recochem appears to pass the test it will make things smoother

After cycling through the prices of said lab glass I cheeped out, considering the little amount of use it will get. I noticed some tecks were just using the plastic 2L bottles to mix everything in so there seems to be a wide array of container possibilities. Hoping the jars will work but since they are only 1L I am a little concerned about running out of room. Although the teck below does use such a size so I should be okay if I follow the directions carefully

Interesting to see that gravy separator idea I am trying to picture it. So you would be pouring off your base liquid from the bottom until all that remained was the naphtha? I do have a smaller eye dropper I was hoping to use for the thinner layer once it gets to small for the baster. Looks like I may have to consider the width of the container that I would be pulling from in order to increase ease of separation

Yesterday I was reading about your experiments with the baking soda solution versus having vinegar on hand for any spills in that link that Juthro posted. There is some good stuff in there.That in particular was a nice little trick to make any potential spills a whole lot easier to deal with


There are so many tecks to choose from but I think the simplistic nature and pictures caught my eye, so this is the one I am going with for now.

Curious what you guys think of it? going to be extracting from MHRB

https://wiki.dmt-nex..._ATB_'Salt'_Tek

 

 

Luckily I have all the PPE needed from my job so it is just a matter of putting on the gloves, coveralls, and safety goggles.

Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 25 March 2021 - 04:41 PM.

[Norman]

A sep funnel can be made pretty easily from an inverted HDPE plastic bottle with the bottom cut off and some kind of valve attached to the neck. Any kind of funnel with a valve on the spout will work.
It’s always much easier to drain the aqueous from the bottom than to try to suck the NP from the top. Make gravity your friend.

That tek is fine. To me all the detail just makes something pretty simple seem hard but whatever. Not heating the acid bark solution seems to be in vogue these days and I don’t know why. I’ll say three boils in vinegar/water and one in plain water to my dying day. Ive never seen salt make a difference in anything but breaking an emulsion but it won’t hurt.

[greenskeeper]

I wouldn't bother using an eye dropper to get the last of the np solvent off the top; leave it for the next pull instead.
If that last thin NP layer contained 10% of the total alkaloids on the first pull, it might contain 1% on the second pull and 0.1% on the third.

The numbers are not real but I hope you get the idea of diminishing loss with subsequent pulls.

[Phineas_Carmichael]

I kind of take issue with all these "Teks" floating around for extractions. The original PF TEK was a method for creating consistently sterile jars of media for growing cubensis mushrooms. The word "TEK" just sort of bled over into the other stuff that people were doing, like extractions.

An extraction is a chemical process that targets your desired molecule with surgical precision and (hopefully) provides you with, to quote Walter White, "a chemically pure and stable product that performs as advertised."

TEKs are a good place to start, and following them to the letter will usually produce adequate results. However, one really needs to understand what's happening chemically to have excellently consistent results time & time again.

=====
And now for another unnecessary organic chemistry lesson:

DMT (like all alkaloids) can exist as a "salt" and a "freebase." What form it takes is dependant on the pH of the environment it is in. Acidic environments make salts, alkaline (basic) environments make freebases.

The first step of an a/b DMT extraction is to strip all of the target molecule from the botanical source into our acidic water as a salt. Salts tend to be very heat-resistant, so we can use lots of heat & get our target into the water quickly and filter out the now "empty" botanical source.

We're going to get lots of impurities into the water too, but they're very soluble in non-polar solvents like naphtha, toluene, & xylene, so the best a/b extractions include a "defat" step at this point. The acidic solution is extracted with solvent to pull out the junk, while the salt-form DMT stays in the water. The TEK you linked skips this step & gives a (perfectly acceptable) yellow product that is cleaned up later. Pulling the impurities out now can potentially give us a clean white product with no clean-up necessary.

Once we have all of our DMT salts in the water we turn them into the freebase by changing the pH of the water from acidic to alkaline (basic) with the addition of dangerously alkaline sodium hydroxide (lye) solution. Our freebase DMT doesn't want to be in the (polar) water, it would rather be in the (non-polar) naphtha. The table salt in the TEK you linked makes the water more polar which makes the layers separate quicker and cleaner.

Once all the freebase DMT has migrated into the camp fuel we get to play with solubility as a function of temperature. Freebase DMT is quite soluble in room-temperature naphtha, but barely soluble in freezer-cold naphtha. Freezing the non-polar solvent causes the DMT to crystallize, just like making rock-candy by cooling a hot super-saturated sugar solution.

Pouring off the excess camp fuel & quickly evaporating the excess solvent with airflow leaves us with a (hopefully) crystalline product that can be scraped up and enjoyed.
=====

Once again I apologize for the book. TEKs are a good starting point and I recommend picking one and following it for a first small attempt or 3. Take good notes and don't throw anything out until you have product. The Target Molecule is always in there somewhere & can usually be wazzled out if necessary. We are always around to help but you can make our job easier with your good notes...

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

You guys sold me on the seperatory funnel it sure seem like it would cut out the most tedious part of the process. There is a 500ml hdpe funnel on amazon, coupled up with a stand and included clamps for 65 bucks. I was a little worried about size limitations of it all but I read a comment saying that an effective way to get around it is to use the baster to roughly pull it off and then the funnel for fine separation?

 

The price seems reasonable enough considering how expensive some of it can get

 

I was trying to find a way for homemade but I am not a big fan of making liquid connections without nice seals. Probably over thinking it but the cleanest solutions seemed to be using something like a soap container or a Gatorade bottle with the adjustable screw or pull caps. Going to do some more browsing

Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 05 April 2021 - 03:57 PM.

[Spark]

Giant toad

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