176 replies to this topic

[el_ronhub_bird]

On Amazon they state that their batches vary from 31%-35%. I'm no chemist but I'm wondering if this is a clue as to whether they weigh it or add it by volume?

Edit: thanks to everyone contributing to the thread and helping me through this process. I'm collecting up the final supplies, my kitchen stinks like cactus soup and vinegar, I'm on my way boys!

Edited by el_ronhub_bird, 04 May 2021 - 02:46 PM.

[greenskeeper]

Nice one Mr. Bird :)

 

I'm pretty sure the acid concentration would be by weight because pure HCl is a gas. I guess it could be 500ml of HCl gas at standard temp/pressure in 1000ml of water but I think 330mg/kg is more likely.

Phineas, does that sound right to you?

[Phineas_Carmichael]

Looking back at some old notebooks I've realized that 32% is NOT way more concentrated than anyone needs, please disregard my earlier statement. With apologies for my brain-fog after a 12-hour mandatory overtime shift in the Wage-Slave lab that keeps my kitties fed.

That's a good looking MSDS, but I'm mighty skeptical of a vendor who admits that their batches vary. 31% vs 35% is a huge swing, considering we're talking about drops (of concentrated acid) per liter (of d-H20) to make our salting solution. Granted, it doesn't matter as long as one can measure the pH of said solution before using it...

You've got it right, Greens. It's definitely by weight; embarrassingly, I forgot that HCl is a gas. 320g HCl/Kg solution in this case. Again, apologies for the brain-fog.

If an Amazon vendor can't be bothered to quantify each batch & label it as such I can't trust them. The industrial chemicals at the hardware store are subjected to a bunch of Quality Controls/Federal Regulations & we can be dang sure that if the label says 32% then the product is 32% Plus, they're stupid-cheap compared to Internet Chemicals and you can pay cash for them & avoid a paper-trail.

Mr. Bird, if you've got nowhere else to go for HCl this Amazon acid will be just fine. I'm probably just superstitious & paranoid about shipping chemicals anyway...

That stink in your kitchen is definitely delicious, I can almost smell it from here! Keep us posted, preferably with pics if you can swing it!

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 05 May 2021 - 03:26 AM.

[greenskeeper]

I ordered xylene online once and got a phone call from the police about it. I had done my homework so I was able to explain that I wanted to remove old concrete sealant. I nearly wet my pants but I got away with it.
Be prepared.

[pharmer]

^^^^^^^^^

 

xylene is an excellent degreaser. spark plugs, engine parts, etc clean up very nicely with most of the non-polars

 

also, different paint thinners cause paint to dry at different rates. xylene causes paint to dry very quickly, especially at temps over 70 F, compared to "normal" paint thinner

 

hypothetically you'd clean your greasy parts in one of the non-polars and then thin your paint with the same thinner before spray painting them. then you would use the same solvent(s) to clean up your delicate spray equipment.

 

no home hobbyist painter would have a complete shop without a few kinds of solvents.

 

crazy eh? using paint thinner to thin paint :)

Edited by pharmer, 05 May 2021 - 07:54 AM.

[el_ronhub_bird]

@Phineas if it makes a difference they also state that they will give the exact percentage of the current batch if inquired about. Also I have a fairly accurate ph meter (I'm a weed guy.) I'll get some ph paper too though, for double checking and for the extreme phs that could damage my pen

[Norman]

Sounds to me like by “current batch” they mean “current drum” of bulk HCl that they repack and sell at an astronomical mark up.
I wish I was evil enough to think of this kind of shit.

[greenskeeper]

My experience with the police call went approximately like this.

 

Caller: xxx from xx police here. I see you've just bought a chemical that's used in drug manufacturing.

Me: Really? Ok.

Police: Tell me why you've purchased 2l of xylene.

Me: [talks about removing a coating]

Police: We just need to make sure you're not going to buy it for somebody who might use for the wrong reason.

There are lots of solvents available. Why did you choose xylene? What property do you need it for?

Me: I don't know. I read it on a website, they said use xylene so I bought some.

Police: What website?

Me: Don't remember. There are so many.

Police: You could use one of the other thinner mixtures.

Me: Do you think I got the wrong stuff? I don't know. I could send it back.

Police: haha I think it'll be ok. one last thing - why 2 litres?

...

 

So I just go to the shop now.

Edited by greenskeeper, 05 May 2021 - 07:32 PM.

[Phineas_Carmichael]

Norman hit the nail on the head & got straight to the bottom of my misgivings about this vendor!

Their product is in a nice-looking reagent bottle with an ehrlenmeyer flask on the scientific-looking label that clearly states it is "Industrial Grade" HCl...

You can buy 2 gallons of 20% "Industrial Grade" Muriatic Acid at a big-box store and pay 10 bucks cash (while wearing a disguise if it makes you feel better) or you can order a quart of 32% "Industrial Grade" HCl for probably more than $10 with your credit card & have it shipped to your house. We're still talking about drops per liter to make the salting solution, just a few more of the 20% drops.

Both will get the job done, especially if you can measure the pH of your solutions (4.0 at the absolute lowest) or do the stoichiometry (which I'm always more than happy to help with, whatever HCl you choose to spend your money on!)

There's really just no reason to order chemicals online unless you need "Laboratory Grade" (and we don't) or can't get to a store & prepare yourself to pretend that you have a swimming pool or a dirty concrete floor in your garage in the highly unlikely event that someone asks. I promise that the 16-year old cashier (and especially the self-checkout machine) doesn't give a shit what you're buying...

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 06 May 2021 - 01:18 AM.

[el_ronhub_bird]

This is the brand that the big box store carries, it's 20%. Here's a screenshot of the MSDS. Will this be good enough? If so I can grab some when I'm downtown later

Attached Thumbnails

• 
• 

[Phineas_Carmichael]

Perfect. That brand is good stuff, whether it's HCl, acetone, or naphtha.

[el_ronhub_bird]

Perfect. That brand is good stuff, whether it's HCl, acetone, or naphtha.

Thank you sir! I appreciate your help and patience!

[el_ronhub_bird]

Alright guys, I scored some acid! Lol I've still got to collect a couple more supply items to be able to finish this extraction but the hydrochloric acid was my biggest concern, being able to find the right kind. So it's a relief to check this off the list. As far as the extraction goes, I think I'll be defatting tomorrow, if so I'll post pics

Attached Thumbnails

• 

[el_ronhub_bird]

I'm currently finishing up my 3rd and final water/vinegar wash of my cactus powder. So far I've filtered it through this muslin type bag that I've had laying around which gets most of cactus material out of the water/vinegar solution. All that is left in the solution is a very fine silt that is slowly falling to the bottom of the jar (and I mean really slow, it looks like it would probably take at least a week for it all to fall out.) I'm going to filter it again, this time though an old t-shirt, which as far as I can tell with my unaided eyesight, appears to be slightly finer than the muslin bag I used for the first filtration and will hopefully remove the remainder of the solid material. My question would be; how important is it to completely remove the solid material? Would it be ok if a very small amount were to remain in water/vinegar solution?

I'm stoked, I've gotta seperatory funnel with stand arriving in the mail within a couple days. It'll definitely come in handy when I'm separating out solvents and such. I just had an idea; could I possibly use the funnel for separating out the sediment that falls out of the solution?

[el_ronhub_bird]

Here are the 2 washes so far. As you can see, the second wash is already much lighter in color and I expect the 3rd to be even lighter. The other pic shows the sediment slowly accumulating at the bottom of the jar with visible specs still suspended in the liquid but very, very slowly falling to the bottom of the jar. But it's falling so slowly that it's movement is not visible, it appears to stay completely still

Attached Thumbnails

• 
• 

[greenskeeper]

Looking good :)

 

For the fine filtering, I find the non-stretchy woven cloth from button/collar shirts to be better than stretchy knit cloth from t-shirts.

Edited by greenskeeper, 10 May 2021 - 07:53 PM.

[greenskeeper]

I like to get the cactus liquid as clear as possible to make the separation of the aqueous and xylene layers easy.

 

If there's a lot of particles in the liquid it's more likely to end up with an emulsion layer of xylene and aqueous that is hard to separate. This is a big problem with cactus (seems to be no problem with root bark) and it sucks when it happens.

 

There are ways to break the emulsion; heat, vibration, adding salt (which I do pre-emptively at the basifying stage). One can avoid emulsions by stirring gently, but that takes a long time and I would not want to do that without a magnetic stirrer.

 

So the clearer the better, I believe.

[el_ronhub_bird]

Good news! Filtration through fabric appears to have removed all solids! I do like the 2 stage filtration though; it saves time as opposed to slowly running it all through just the fabic. Ok, so tonight i will finish up with the straining/filtration, put all 3 vinegar washes into the slow cooker to reduce overnight. So that's where we're at right now. I'll update after some progress

Edit:@greenskeeper thanks for the tip to avoid stretchy t-shirt material. This other fabric appears to be working perfectly!

Attached Thumbnails

• 

Edited by el_ronhub_bird, 10 May 2021 - 08:31 PM.

[el_ronhub_bird]

I spoke too soon, a small sediment layer accumulated overnight. So I folded the filtration fabric in half so as to double it and now the solution has been slowly dripping through that for a few hours. The fact that it is taking much longer now and the clear solution coming through leads me to believe I'll get all the sediment this time. But we'll see because I've said that before lol

[el_ronhub_bird]

Hell yeah just got this beautiful piece of equipment! It's really gonna come in handy! Goodbye turkey baster! Lol ok so the other pic is of all 3 water/vinegar washes. As of right now they have all been combined into a stock pot to reduce with the flame on the stovetop turned to the lowest setting. I'd like to reduce it down to less than 1 liter, maybe more like 750ml so it can fit in the funnel along with enough solvent. So that's where we are at with this extraction. So far so good! Thanks again to everyone contributing to the thread!

As far as the sediment, I have removed the vast majority, if not all of it by combining a couple different methods; filtration through a muslin type bag, filtration through a piece of fabric. Filtration power seemed to at least double when the cloth was doubled by simply folding it in half. Another useful technique was to pour off the solution after the sediment had settled to the bottom after a day or 2. When poured slowly, after the majority of the clear solution has poured off, you can watch as the sediment begins to pour with the remainder of the solution but you can cut it off before any escapes, so long as you're pouring slowly enough and with enough care. I then take the small amount of solution left and the sediment and pour it through the doubled cloth for filtration. If there is a miniscule amount of sediment remaining, it'll be easily removed when I leave it to settle out of the solution in the sep funnel. I may even filter it one more time before I do that as well

Edit: the jars are half gallon jars. In the pic the size seems a little ambiguous, at least from my phone screen, so I figured I'd point it out

Attached Thumbnails

• 
• 

Edited by el_ronhub_bird, 13 May 2021 - 03:58 PM.