That thread is over nine years old and went nowhere on the DMT Nexus, so no I agree that this isn’t likely a miracle sublingual route for DMT solo.
Salvia, on the other hand, or anything else orally active at dropwise doses might be interesting. Siebert wrote about sublingual salvia dosing using an acetone tincture, of all things. He’s tougher than me on that but ethanol might be an option or maybe this method would be a way around both without having the underside of your tongue scorched for ten minutes
Newmoon and Norman, I read the complete DMT nexus thread (all 3 pages) from beginning to end and it was all just talk, Nobody and mean nobody even attempted to create a HPBCD complex of DMT.
FYI: Here is the thread Newmoon found from DMT nexus on "Complexing DMT freebase for sublingual administration"
As far as I know, I am the only one so far to have done this sucessfully. It is extremely easy. Back then when the nexus had that thread, commercial HPBCD was not even available on auction sites or anywhere else. I had bought mine from a bulk supplier on a whim over 12 years ago, and stored the whole tub in my closet, and just pulled it out the other day to use it for the 1st time on DMT, and I'm so glad I did! It does indeed work very well, and I plan to use if for the rest of my life.
Years ago, I took DMT freebase (70 to 90mg) with harmine and THH pharmahuasca at least a dozen times, and found it mild at best (on a Shulgin scale of 1 to 5, they were all +3 experiences). I even tried to dissolve it into coca cola and citric acid in hot water to make it absorb better as the salt, but it only slightly increased the strength.
The sublingual HPBCD complexed DMT tried the other day was all encompassing and strong at only 30mg, very impressed, I can only imagine where stronger doses will carry this psychonaut.
After that I switched to taking 30 to 35 grams of Hawaiian psychotria boiled down to a couple oz, then added the harmine + thh to the 2oz of hot pychotria tea....well that blew my mind CONSISTENTLY for many years, as I continued to use it over 65 times! Most of the experiences were +4 to +5, very strong indeed, much stronger than the freebase used dmt.
This agrees with what I read from clearlight:
Clearlight experiments that involved several people found the leaf brew form superior to extracted actives, they found the leaf brews very strong and powerful & clairavoyant (+5 Shulgin scale), while they mentioned that the extracted actives were mild (+3 Shulgin scale) at best, even up to 100mg. Again, this is poorly understood.
Even Jonathan Ott found that in his 20 experiments posted in his book "Ayahuasca Analogues", that none of his later experiments with extracted actives quite matched the power of his 1st actual Ayahuasca brewed with caapi and good real leaf (experiment #1), he had no explanation for this. He did however find 70mg to be close to it, but still not the same.
However, at this point, I have noticed that ALL the dried Hawaiian psychotria is extinct, and is no longer available. So I am looking forward in dreams to oral HPBCD complexed DMT at around 60mg on up, and hoping this will do the trick, I'm sure it will after having experienced what I really love with the 30mg sublingual HPBCD complexed DMT.
I have read HPBCD complexing these non-water soluble freebase drugs to make them orally 100% water soluble should make it absorb very effectively in the body, so I do believe it will be possible to once again achieve very strong journeys, similar to the ones I used to have using strong water soluble psychotria leaf.
I often found the oral DMT too short as it would wind down after 90 minutes of taking the pharmahuasca, and I am very glad I found this new complexing method so that I can take a "sublingual dose" if I choose at 90 minutes, to extend the journey at least another 90 minutes, to get a full 3 hours of strong activity out of it, that is my goal, and I feel I am one step closer after having experienced the 30mg HPBCD complexed DMT experiment that was successful.
"Sublingual mucosa as a route for systemic drug delivery" by Narang & Sharma 2010:
With Insufflation, sublingual or rectal, DMT is not broken down by monoamine oxidase.
See above paper from Narang et al, Intl J Pharm Sci, Vol 3, Suupl 2, 2011, 18-22:
"With sublingual or "under the tongue", the mucosea thickness is only 100-200, high permeability with rich blood supply, much better than buccal or gingival & palatal, 200, 250, 500 micrometer respectively, shuttling the drug directly to bloodstream." The DMT is not broken down via monamine oxidase whatsoever this way. It avoids the liver and first pass metabolism. The drug is rapidly absorbed via the rich blood supply vessels under the tongue rather than being broken down in the digestive track via the enzyme monamine oxidase. According to paper: "Sublingually administered drugs reach directly in to the blood stream through the ventral surface of the tongue and floor of the mouth. The drug solutes are rapidly absorbed into the reticulated vein which lies underneath the oral mucosa, and transported through the facial veins, internal jugular vein, and braciocephalic vein and then drained in to systemic circulation."
According to paper, "the absorption of drugs through the sublingual route is 3 to 10 times greater than oral route and is surpassed by hypodermic injection. Peak blood levels of most products administered sublingually are achieved within 10 to 15 minutes, which is generally much faster than when those same drugs are ingested orally." This has been my experience as well, after 10 minutes of sublingual under tongue application, 5 minutes after the 10 minute sublingual absorption, the DMT rush is felt, followed by 60 to 90 minutes of entheogenic activity. According to paper, "sublingual absorption of drugs is efficient. The percent of each dose absorbed is generally higher than that achieved by means of oral ingestion."
Smoked: If DMT is smoked, the maximal effects last for a short period of time (5 to 30 minutes, dose-dependent). The onset after inhalation is very fast (less than 45 seconds) and maximal effects are reached within about a minute.
Insufflation & Sublingual absorption via Oral Mucosa (under tongue): When DMT is insufflated (snorted through the nostrils) or absorbed sublingually via the complexing of the drug with HPBCD to make it water soluble, the duration is markedly increased.
Injection: Injected DMT produces an experience similar to inhalation in duration, intensity, and characteristics.
Oral ingestion: DMT, which is broken down by the digestive enzyme monoamine oxidase, is practically inactive if taken orally, unless combined with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI).
See post #11 on nasally and sublingually (under the tongue) delivered HPBCD complexed pro-hormones & testosterone, all very poorly water soluble like DMT, made water soluble with HPBCD.
Edited by tregar, 17 April 2021 - 07:28 PM.