Thanks for your continued exploration in these interesting fields tregar-- I've been reading your posts for many years now on various sites-- you do good things for the entheogenic community, and I am grateful
New paper: HPBCD complexed DMT made 100% bioavailable sublingually under tongue
Posted 24 April 2021 - 10:36 AM
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Posted 25 April 2021 - 02:13 AM
I was going to ask about this for Hawaiian Woodrose or morning glory seeds. Again great work !
IMPORTANT!: Post #1 corrected HPBCD to DMT mg ratio...and also added link to a paper at very bottom showing that even 50 to 100mg sublingual doses of pharmaceuticals shown to be very effective!
HPBCD complexed DMT made bioavailable sublingually under tongue, also improves oral bioavailability for pharmahuasca & Ayahuasca
I used a 7:1 gram weight ratio of HPBCD (hydroxy propyl beta cyclodextrin, molar weight between 1200 to 1500 g/mol) on auction sites and elsewhere, to DMT (molar weight = 188g/mol) in order to keep the molar ratio of cyclodextrin to host drug at a 1:1 molar ratio. What I did was place for example 30mg freebase dmt on a spoon, add 210mg of HPBCD powder on top the DMT, add many drops of water from a pipette, mix it all together for 30 seconds using a toothpick, then draw up liquid with pipette, place drops under tongue and hold for 10 minutes or so...I prefer 15 minutes. The DMT will dissolve into the bloodstream.
Narang and Sharma mention in their 2010 sublingual paper that under the tongue pharmaceuticals can be 3 to 10 times more bioavailable than oral. HPBCD makes the non-water soluble DMT water soluble. It traps and delivers small molecules such as DMT extremely effectively across the mucosa membrane under the tongue, with it's high permeability (only 100 to 200 micrometers thick) and rich blood supply--shuttling the DMT directly to bloodstream.
Most studies recommend a 1:1 equimolar ratio of HPBCD to host drug for complexing.
Strong effects at 5 minutes after the end of the 10 to 15 minute sublingual drug delivery under tongue: tryptamine rush/buzz & greatly elevated heart rate & pulse, dilated pupils...neon colorful visuals/visions...peak at 30 to 45 minutes, duration 60 to 90 minutes.
This was using DMT cleaned up using a sodium carbonate wash. PKA of DMT is 8.75 or so, so do not use a sodium bicarbonate wash -- it will eat up most of your DMT, as ph of bicarb is not high enough, it needs to be 1 to 2 points higher than PKA of DMT, at 11 or 11.5 or so is perfect, where 100% sodium carbonate PH is at, found in pool isle of home box store.
This would allow those who normally get nausea from oral preps to avoid the nausea. There is no burn under tongue, taste yes. I used this 4 times in one night over the course of several hours with THH, and my tongue was just fine, no burn or scarring. Felt just fine next day too. I experienced infinite beauty and visuals, very transcendent.
HPBCD is a new technology that allows freebase nonpolar drugs like DMT to be trapped by the cyclodextrin inner cavity which is composed of an inner "non-polar trap", and "outer polar cavity or cone" which allows the normally water insoluble DMT to be made 100% water soluble.
HPBCD is composed from a sugar molecule, it has been used to make scores of other non-water soluble drugs 100% water soluble and reach peak activity as measurements of the drug in the bloodstream indicated that all of the freebase drug was absorbed effectively.
Other examples of non water soluble freebase non-polar drugs complexed with HPBCD made water soluble: hormones, pregnisolone, etc.
Apparently, this also makes the DMT absorb very well if taken orally as well, improving even the oral bio-availability by many factors when taken with RIMA's to activate it, etc.
THH or tetrahydroharmine can be taken orally (100 to 200mg), my favorite in combo, while the DMT can be used sublingually, allowing the best of both worlds. Zero nausea. Have tried this in dreams several times, and it works extremely well, tryptamine rush felt around 5 or more minutes after sublingual application, peak at 30 to 45 minutes, like an extended sub-breakthrough, excellent for long lasting transcendental contemplation and work. Best to limit to once a week or so, so no tolerance.
professor8 (11/1/2010, he writes like a poet with special powers of imagination & expression):
Tetrahydroharmine (THH) has the ability to raise your vibration in a most powerful, yet subtle way. It brings a crystalline prismy texture to spice and adds a super clear watery dimension to Aya, like looking down through 10meters of shimmering Caribbean Sea on clear blue day. It brings a dimension of pure light to the entheogenic experience and encourages entities & intelligences of only the Highest Order. If one is not accustomed to perceiving these experiences with a spiritual perspective most of the nuances & subtleties THH brings on are overlooked and remain unseen and one would better enjoy Harmaline as a house painter chooses a roller over a brush, its about preference & choice.
Should add that music sounds quite incredible on a combo of 150mg or more of THH + DMT as tetrahydroharmine breaks down the filters or barriers in the mind, very similar to listening to music on cactus.
Don't forget that this should improve the ORAL BIOAVAILABILITY of dmt when combined with a RIMA as well -- by many factors -- this technology has been used to potentiate these freebase drugs ORALLY as well -- this could potentially mean a pharmahuasca experience that is very strong indeed!
"Sublingual mucosa as a route for systemic drug delivery" by Narang & Sharma 2010:
Microsoft Word - 1092.doc (innovareacademics.in)
As you can see from the bottom linked sublingual viagra study, even 50 to 100mg doses can be administered under the tongue, the authors noting that less of the drug was required, and that it began working in only one half the normal time of an oral dose:
"The start of pharmacological activity after sublingual administration of sildenafil citrate in 30 patients affected by erectile dysfunction." by Siati & Franzolin 2003.
Here are a few of my other topics in case you are interested:
Positronic Ayahuasca brewing
Positronic Ayahuasca brewing - Ayahuasca - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
Receptorome study: how traditional Ayahuasca & snuffs differ from dmt
Receptorome study: how traditional Ayahuasca & snuffs differ from dmt - Ayahuasca - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
New research: Morning glory contains 5 stimulating LSD-like drugs, soluble only in wine/alcohol, only sparingly soluble in water
New research: Morning glory contains 5 stimulating LSD-like drugs, soluble only in wine/alcohol, only sparingly soluble in water. - Botanicals - Mycotopia
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- tregar likes this
Posted 25 April 2021 - 08:47 AM
Interesting read. This might sound silly but if the goal from the cyclodextrin is to solubilize the freebase DMT then why not just convert the freebase into its salt form and thus it will easily dissolve? Why doesn't DMT salt work for sublingual route?
Edited by tregar, 25 April 2021 - 11:27 AM.
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Posted 25 April 2021 - 05:20 PM
Don't forget to take from 150 to 250mg tetrahydroharmine around 30 minutes before the sublingual under the tongue HPBCD DMT, music will sound incredible, divine transcendence and visions, very similar to cactus tea.
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Posted 26 April 2021 - 07:10 AM
I spent the last hour pulling up many threads on "sublingual or nasal fumarate salt DMT", and they were all very dissapointing reads, whereas the several HPBCD complexed 30mg DMT experiments I performed were strong indeed--held under tongue for 15 minutes, 5 minutes later: rapid hearbeat, rapid pulse, dilated pupils, felt distinct tryptamine rush & buzz take over my body, neon colored CEV visuals. Felt elation, euphoria especially in combo with the THH which I had taken many hours earlier.
Music sounded very good, experienced profound beauty with open eyes & CEV's with closed eyes. The duration was long. I re-dosed more 30mg HPBCD complexed DMT every hour for the next 3 hours, it was a sublime experience. I should have gone even higher in dosage to gauge. The afterglow even after the 3 hour period was fantastic. I watched a movie and had a fantastic time.
Have no explanation for how well this worked, there must be something special going on with the complexed HPBCD DMT, I can feel that it all absorbs in less than 15 minutes, and it wastes no time in reaching the brain unhindered, very impressed with this route of administration.
Look forward to hearing from other experimenters, HPBCD is dirt cheap. I bought my 1kg tub for less than the price of two movie tickets over 12 years ago, had been sitting in my closet all that time, used it in the past for complexing pro-hormones for sublingual use, very effective I might add, been a weight lifter since my early 20's. I read other weight lifters were doing the same, so I copied what they were doing before pro-hormones were banned.
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Posted 27 April 2021 - 07:03 AM
Actual revised title of this thread should be:
HPBCD complexed DMT made very bioavailable sublingually under tongue, combo with tetrahydroharmine, 30 second formed alternative to fumarate salt
Note: If anyone get's anything out of this thread, to remember that this can be a SUPER ALTERNATIVE to making the DMT fumarate salt.
Keep in mind that making the fumarate salt of DMT is a somewhat long involved process with many steps, whereas using HPBCD, you can form a water soluble DMT compound in 30 seconds that can even be used orally with a RIMA: (example, harmine) and SRI: (THH) combination, with everything dissolved all together in a hot tea, all taken at the exact same time (just as the Shaman's do) for a powerful Ayahuasca, that will be quite potent orally. I've taken Ayahuasca over 70 times now over a period of many years, my favorite next to cactus tea.
Edited by tregar, 27 April 2021 - 12:47 PM.
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Posted 27 April 2021 - 05:46 PM
- coAsTal likes this
Posted 03 May 2021 - 01:57 AM
Compete paper with lots of pictures:
HPBCD complexed DMT made very bioavailable sublingually under tongue, combo with tetrahydroharmine, Ayahuasca, 30 second formed alternative to fumarate salt.
Part 1: HPBCD complexed DMT experimental dosage, effects & duration
Part 2: receptorome chart & explanation
Part 3: Tetrahydroharmine (THH) effects
Part 4: Tetrahydroharmine receptorome similarities to mescaline; potentiates cactus & safety note
Part 5: chemist Patrick Arnold's HPBCD prohormones & bloodwork studies
part 6: Dr. Narang: "with sublingual" or "under the tongue" better than buccal, gingival & palatal
part 7: a little bit on my 70 Ayahuasca experiences, doses & visions
part 8: New research: Morning glory contains 5 stimulating LSD-like drugs, soluble only in wine/alcohol, only sparingly soluble in water.
part 9: 20 minute visionary visit from a dead Aztec Shaman
- coAsTal likes this
Posted 03 May 2021 - 04:14 PM
Posted 07 May 2021 - 06:05 AM
Edited by tregar, 07 May 2021 - 12:58 PM.
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Posted 08 May 2021 - 08:22 AM
well you can mix me up a batch
mescaline is a second
I'm about to try cactus/mesc extraction HcL more than likely. I have a couple kilos of MHRB, probably a lifetime supply, lol. I could get 36 grams of DMT from them give or take.
Edited by tregar, 08 May 2021 - 11:35 AM.
Posted 09 May 2021 - 03:58 PM
Edited by tregar, 09 May 2021 - 04:57 PM.
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Posted 10 May 2021 - 05:00 AM
Edited by tregar, 10 May 2021 - 08:17 AM.
Posted 11 May 2021 - 04:17 PM
Tomorrow I will be hitting two elves with one stone. I will take not only 70mg of HPBCD DMT orally with 200mg harmine + 250mg tetrahydroharmine orally all dissolved into a hot tea with some crushed vitamin C to dissolve the harmalas, and report back to see if the experience is similar to using an actual Hawaiian psychotria brew (which is always VERY kick ass super strong, all encompassing & very neon colorful with tracers that go onto infinity)...but after it wears off I will then take 30mg on up of sublingual HPBCD DMT to extend the trip, and bring back 60 to 90 minutes of DMT activity.
message to me:
haha yeah that sure helped confuse me. What is the point of that procedure anyway to make an edible version of dmt?
This thread shows how to make in 30 seconds what is called HPBCD DMT, using only a spoon, some HPBCD powder, some DMT, and drops of water.
When you for example make a hot tea with some crushed vitamin C to help dissolve the harmine and thh, and add 180 to 230mg harmine to the tea, along with 150 to 250mg of tetrahydroharmine to the tea, and also add 70mg of HPBCD complexed DMT to the hot tea, it could give you a powerful Ayahuasca experience that is VERY similar to using an actual hawaiian psychotria brew, far more powerful and all encompassing than using 70mg of freebase DMT or 70mg of freebase salt formed from fumarate or DMT salt made by dropping DMT freebase into coca cola or orange juice, etc.
Experiments that involved several people found the leaf brew form superior to extracted actives, the leaf brews were very strong and powerful & clairavoyant (+5 Shulgin scale), while the extracted actives were mild (+3 Shulgin scale) at best, even up to 100mg. Again, this is poorly understood.
This combined with the HPBCD complexation results (which we really ought to replicate and confirm) makes me wonder whether there are saccharides in leaf brews which perform a similar effect to HPBCD. There is still so much scope for really interesting research here -thanks for posting.
This is indeed fascinating downwardsfromzero, thanks for that keen observation on the sacchardies, perhaps they do function similar to HPBCD? Note: this procedure will work with any freebase molecule that is poorly water soluble, it does not work with already water soluble compounds or salts.
I've seen anecdotal reports of quidded D. cabrerana leaf being active.
Excellent observation Jagube.
69ron posted 8/12/2009:
People are getting pleasant DMT effects from sublingual Virola calophylla resin. I don't think it has that much DMT in it. So why does the resin work so well when DMT is so hard to use sublingually?
See my point? HPBCD DMT is very strong...I even used 30mg of it sublingually under tongue for 15 minutes and experienced rapid heartbeat & pulse, tryptamine body rush & buzz, dilated pupils, music sounded incredible, had cev's and open eyed euphoria and profound beauty. I took 250mg of tetrahydroharmine 1 hour earlier so it was more like a true Ayahuasca experience, but no nausea.
Edited by tregar, 11 May 2021 - 05:26 PM.
Posted 12 May 2021 - 06:32 AM
I bought my 1kg tub from a supplier of sports supplements 12 years ago, as it was sold right along side pro-hormones which converted to testosterone in the body at a rate of 95% compared to testosterone alone, as you guessed, all pro-hormones like 4-androstenediol were all later banned.
I've been a weight lifter/bodybuilder since my early 20's when I was a full time lifeguard on the beach (love the water, water spirit)...currently my bodyweight is 220lbs at 12 percent bodyfat, follow a strict Palumbo high-protein keto-diet daily for years, 1.2 grams protein per lb of bodyweight per day. I get all my meals and 65 gram protein shake within an 8 hour window everyday (6am till 3pm), and fast after 3pm till I wake up the next day. This keeps my bodyfat low yet retains all the muscle. I run on the treadmill during the fasting period once I get home for 20 to 30 minutes at least 3 times a week. I take bcaa's before I hop on treadmill to keep any muscle from breaking down.
Even at this weight, I still find that 200mg of harmine completely inhibits the monoamine oxidase in my body...in all of my 70 Ayahuasca experiences using 200mg harmine + 220 to 250mg tetrahydroharmine over many years, I find the alkaloid amounts to completely activate 30 to 35 grams of Hawaiian psychotria to the full extent.
Later tonight I will take 200mg harmine + 250mg tetrahydroharmine + 70mg HPBCD DMT (490mg HPBCD powder kneaded, crushed & stirred for 30 seconds into 70mg DMT on a spoon with many drops of water forming a sticky complex for the oral use)...I will report back. Several papers I have read indicate that HPBCD complexed pharmaceuticals even when delivered orally out-performed normal oral versions of themselves by many factors.
I always mix everything together into a 2oz hot water tea with a dash of crushed vitamin C to dissolve the freebase harmine and THH, along with the HPBCD DMT, stir all together well in the hot water tea, just as the Shaman's do, take all together at exact same time, works incredibly well, far better than spacing out the DMT from the harmalas, I should know, I ran several experiments years ago, and the tea where ALL was mixed together outperformed all the other trials consistently.
Edited by tregar, 12 May 2021 - 07:01 AM.
Posted 12 May 2021 - 10:15 AM
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Posted 12 May 2021 - 05:15 PM
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Posted 12 May 2021 - 08:38 PM
P.S. update 8pm -- I just took sublingual 30mg DMT complexed to 210mg HPBCD on a spoon with less than 0.25ml (only 5 drops) of VERY HOT water this time--it all dissolved into a clear solution after mashing it with end of spoon for 1 minute--great effects held under tongue for 15 minutes--sweet taste --no burn!:)
Edited by tregar, 13 May 2021 - 02:07 AM.