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"How science has been corrupted"


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#21 shiftingshadows

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 09:43 AM

Re: August West: ..."I'm having a hard time fitting your contributions into the context of the op."... 

 

   The original post is very long. It seemed to me the main ideas of the thread were that what is dangerous in the world now, is loss of freedom, corrupt authorities, corrupted science, and corrupted facts /news, or fake news.

 

   My points, (right or wrong) are that although there may be some truth to these allegations they are not the main driving points, behind the deteriorating conditions. Yes freedom & privacy are being diminished, by security cameras, facial recognition, big or meta data collection, biased AI algorithms, and hacking. 

Also police are being militarized (also not discussed); and whole countries invaded, turned into hell, and/or, subjugated for example: Tibet, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, & some Nations in Africa etc. (also not discussed)

   So what do I say is the main, culprit of deteriorating quality of life for the majority of humans at this point? 1) Population growth (which has tripled world wide in my life time) And (2) the success (not failure) of science and technology which have made possible mega cities (where the pollution actually kills people (the most recent well known examples possibly being: Beijing China, Mexico City, and some big European cities now enacting restrictive traffic laws). In my view cities lower the quality of life in many other ways, as well.

 

   And what is the cause of population growth? The inability of humans to control their birth rate, (or in plain language: horniness), which some animals can do, but which the virulent or fatal diseases and viruses do not do. 

   So I do not put the blame on outside causes, as the article suggests (of which, supposed cause, some are perhaps afraid). Rather humans choose to kill trees and forests & wipe out entire animal species and live in concrete cages, called cities. And the migration of population into cities is predicted to increase until the majority live in them, and even then continue.

 

   My final point is that Global Warming will most likely make all of the above issues (both the ones raised by the OP, the thread, & myself) trivial by comparison. When masses try to leave flooded costal cities world wide, and they are as unwanted in their own countries, as the immigrant crisis in Europe and the US southern border cause foreign immigrants to be, the result will be chaos, and in the USA, where gun ownership is the highest in the world, I expect it will get ugly quickly once it begins, in possibly 5 to 50 years from now.

 

   There are a number of further wild cards in the mix. Constant cyber war, post Stuxnet and Nitro Zeus. Iran & Israel, and North Korea. 

    And yes hacking is a real wild card, as we see right now: "U.S. gasoline prices may surge to their highest since 2014 even faster than previously expected as a cyberattack disrupts operations on the nation’s biggest oil fuel pipeline."

https://www.bloomber...kf5EbHq2f6fO7Cs

    Which raises the question of wether the vast military budget of the US actually defends, and if, government priorities aren't simply stupid. Perhaps corruption, greed, and stupidity are all facets of the same 'thing'?

   As mentioned before, other wild cards  are the disruption, to both water supplies and food production, that are likely to accompany GW, and mass migration. The effects of species extinction, and their effect on the pollination of food crops; and increase in fires like those in Australia and now regularly in California, are further unknowns. 

    So again I do not put the blame on the outside causes, authorities, or conspiracies, as the article seems to suggest. We have chosen to make a vast population in the US dependent on outdated infrastructure, particularly the power grid, which when over burdened causes some of the California fires, (When the wires overheat they sag onto the trees below, & due to lack of space they cannot be updated), which get worse every year. And they are overburdened due to population growth. The power grid is also run on outdated software and vulnerable to hacking.

   The covid crisis in India is again due to over crowding and a religious festival that attracted millions and vast election rallies, again due to ignorant human behavior, & over population, & not some outside evil.


Edited by shiftingshadows, 10 May 2021 - 10:56 AM.


#22 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 10:24 AM

Yeah it is definitely that parasitic drug you speak of Mike

 

At the start of the pandemic some labs started researching the effects of know drugs on covid19 to see what effects they would have. Mr Kory and his team started to spread the word that they thought ivermectin was effective in treating it. I can't speak to the actual science more so just repeating what I have seen in the news. It could very well end up being another failure like the other drugs that were hyped at the start of the pandemic. There was initial resistance to it and still is by the CDC due to "lack of data". However I thought it was noteworthy that as time went on other countries have approved it's use as a treatment. There still seems to be plenty of controversy surrounding its use at the moment though. They noted in that study they were giving patients 12 grams a day so I could see some dudes snorting far more than that unknowingly up their noses. Not something to be bought and taken as a home remedy that's for sure


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#23 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 11:25 AM

 

   My final point is that Global Warming will most likely make all of the above issues (both the ones raised by the OP, the thread, & myself) trivial by comparison. When masses try to leave flooded costal cities world wide, and they are as unwanted in their own countries, as the immigrant crisis in Europe and the US southern border cause foreign immigrants to be, the result will be chaos, and in the USA, where gun ownership is the highest in the world, I expect it will get ugly quickly once it begins, in possibly 5 to 50 years from now.

 

 

The corruption of science is why global warming is not being addressed to the degree (so to speak) that it needs to be (or needed to be decades ago) if we're going to mitigate the worst of its effects.

 

That appears to be the extent of your reply's connection to the topic.

 

The rest of the issues you mentioned are examples of technology, not science. And technology has always been utilized in accordance with the morals and ethics (or lack thereof) of those who employ it. Science didn't build the first atomic bomb (or anything else for that matter), engineering did. Engineers needed the science to know exactly how and what to engineer.



#24 shiftingshadows

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 12:08 PM

"The corruption of science is why global warming is not being addressed to the degree (so to speak) that it needs to be (or needed to be decades ago) if we're going to mitigate the worst of its effects."

 

   I would think simple greed is a contributing cause. As well as lack of education, of the public, to evaluate science. As well as a lack of curiosity to take the simple step of reading some world news from time to time!

   Of course greedy companies funded some of the corruption of science.

Wether or not better better understanding of the science, would actually change human behavior from thousands of years of preoccupation with warfare, and profits, is perhaps an open question.

     

    "The rest of the issues you mentioned are examples of technology, not science."

 

    Population growth is not a matter of either technology or science, IMO.

I'm not sure into what category the phenomenon of mega cities, or the migration into them belongs.

 

    Again of course those who live in cities, and are wealthy, will not agree with my view of them.

 

    "There are 81 cities with a population over 5 million people according to the United Nations 2018 estimates." 

https://en.wikipedia..._largest_cities

 

https://duckduckgo.c...ages&iar=images

 

https://en.wikipedia..._largest_cities


Edited by shiftingshadows, 10 May 2021 - 12:18 PM.

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#25 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 12:28 PM


 

 Population growth is not a matter of either technology or science, IMO.

 

I would have to disagree. Technology is precisely what made the current population (and its continued exponential expansion) possible.

 

Starting with smacking rocks together to make sharper rocks.


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#26 shiftingshadows

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 01:11 PM

I partially agree, it's a factor. The fact that human mating is not seasonal, and used to be regulated by the environment in hunter gather times, from which we have now been freed, would a seem to play a part.

 

More generally although I acknowledge the problems, of fake news and misleading science (also common for decades, by the way,  as regards nutrition, (again of course paid for by the sugar and related industries and related misinformation from big pharma)), in leading many down false paths; when I look at our species's history of continual warfare somewhere on the planet, for thousands of years, I find it hard to blame recent trends, for all our errors.


Edited by shiftingshadows, 10 May 2021 - 01:12 PM.


#27 greenskeeper

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 01:53 PM

Science hasn't been corrupted. It is still the same method of inquiry that produces reliable results.

 

People have been corrupted and this discussion seems about the corruption of people in the fields of science that are pertinent to government policy and social decisions.

 

There may be too many corrupt research centres and corrupt science reporters but the problem isn't with science - it's people.

 

Science --> Technology does enable greater population growth. The biggest reason for the increase in cancer in people over 50 yrs is antibiotics - because people no longer die of infected cuts when they're younger, so now it's ridiculously common to live to 50 and beyond.


Edited by greenskeeper, 10 May 2021 - 01:55 PM.

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#28 shiftingshadows

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 04:51 PM

"Science hasn't been corrupted. It is still the same method of inquiry that produces reliable results.

People have been corrupted and this discussion seems about the corruption of people in the fields of science that are pertinent to government policy and social decisions.
There may be too many corrupt research centres and corrupt science reporters but the problem isn't with science - it's people."...
 
.    After world war ll the US began on the road of Empire building, one consequence of which was huge military budgets, and weapons manufacturing, etc. This was long before what is now called fake news. If one assumes this money could have been spent on education, the public would have been better equipped to deal with reality.
.    Assuming of course that the country wasn't so religiously fanatical as to want to ban the teaching of evolution. Are we to blame science, or even corporate funded biased science studies, for all the follies of religion, in all countries, over the centuries? This is a country dedicated to fantasy and avoiding reality, from the salem witch trials, to Disney land, and cars with tail fins. *
.    That this is the wealthiest country on the planet, and an isolated one, (by oceans on 2 sides, and a colder, & relatively  independent one to the north, and only one poor neighbor to the south along a relatively short border) is an accident of geography, politics, & trade, that has fostered a peculiar ignorance on the part of Americans as to how resented and despised they are in much of the world. We have exported our junk food and fast food to the much of the world, so that diabetes has now become common in other countries that have accepted this influx.
.    That this country was founded, by slave holders, intended to be a republic not a pure democracy, & instituted an electoral college, for this reason... - all this predates the corruption of, some science 'investigations' paid for by corporations, and fake news.
See for example the first interview here:
Titled : Julian Casablancas Interviews Chris Hedges | S.O.S. Earth is a Mess
[the interview begins after a minute of silly intro music and effects]
 
*  "Fantasyland: How America Went Haywire: A 500-Year History" by Kurt Andersen 
excerpt from a review - see amazon for more if interested
"In this sweeping, eloquent history of America, Kurt Andersen shows that what’s happening in our country today—this post-factual, “fake news” moment we’re all living through—is not something new, but rather the ultimate expression of our national character. America was founded by wishful dreamers, magical thinkers, and true believers, by hucksters and their suckers. Fantasy is deeply embedded in our DNA.

Over the course of five centuries—from the Salem witch trials to Scientology to the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, from P. T. Barnum to Hollywood and the anything-goes, wild-and-crazy sixties, from conspiracy theories to our fetish for guns and obsession with extraterrestrials—our love of the fantastic has made America exceptional in a way that we've never fully acknowledged. From the start, our ultra-individualism was attached to epic dreams and epic fantasies—every citizen was free to believe absolutely anything, or to pretend to be absolutely anybody. "


Edited by shiftingshadows, 10 May 2021 - 07:23 PM.


#29 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 03:18 PM

I often wonder if this age of misinformation holds any more power over the people than the old ways of superstition. Perhaps the big difference is the ability to re enforce your cognitive bias and "prove" its truth with the click of a button. Everybody is a fucking expert now right

 

 

edit: I should mention superstition is still rife in other parts of the world and when combined with misinformation it can make for a literal deadly cocktail


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 11 May 2021 - 05:36 PM.

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#30 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 05:01 PM

This is about a 45 min read according to the website.

 

Formatting it would be crazy.

 

From Nicholas Wade a prominent retired Journalist that worked for the NY times for thirty something years wrote this. Not some conspiracy hack

 

I really don't know where to post this one. Seriously though you can skip your tinfoil hat for this one. If your a skeptic do me a favor and give this an honest read. Fair warning it might take you some time to go through but I can't imagine how someone could objectively read this and say the lab leak is just a horse shit conspiracy idea. I feel this was something that became heavily politicized by you know who uttering the words. It might be the thing I hate him for the most at this point, making so many things about covid a partisan battle where you have lost before entering the ring

 

This is the most elaborate well written reporting on the origins of covid 19 that exists out there. They break down the gain of function aspect clearly and point out the gaps in the natural story. The reason I post it here is the bit about the coverup and how rich people use these "groups" to play shell games with money and the media to try to hide the truth. No speculation needed for anyone to rationalize why another would want to coverup such a disaster.

 

This is a comprehensive look at the theories of coivd origin and possible motivation for pushing the natural theory to hide the gain of function research that was done. Interestingly a video has just popped up of Rand Paul and Faucci discussing the funding from the NIH to the intermediary company that then funded the gain of function research. If you watch closely notice how Faucci keeps repeating a very precise statement that allows him to lie without telling the truth. Technically the NIH did not directly fund the Wuhan lab's gain of function research but the cash started at the NIH and ended up in Wuhan and this is documented for all to see.

 

While there is no conclusive proof for either theory the idea that the lab leak theory is pure nonsense gets under my skin. The amount of coincidence is unreal.

 

https://nicholaswade...ues-6f03564c038


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#31 August West

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 05:21 PM

I came this (holds thumb and forefinger pretty close together) close to posting this yesterday...but obviously...


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#32 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 10:09 PM

My guess is nobody will read it.

 

If I could travel back in time and take back every lab post ever just so I could make this one I would



#33 shiftingshadows

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:42 PM

I read most of it - all the science - (but skimmed about all the parties involved at the end) - exactly as you say - it is amazing
What I read, I read very carefully and was less than half way through when I came across this: "It cannot yet be stated that Dr. Shi did or did not generate SARS2 in her lab because her records have been sealed, but it seems she was certainly on the right track to have done so.'
Then it goes on... with more & more evidence
it seems we have bunch of mad scientists, at the core of this disaster. And really stupid foundations that fund them.

Influenza & bird flues, may have, come partly through wet markets, as Dr. Michael Greger explains, but the story of covid that N. Wade documents, explains that in this case, there are a lot of "smoking guns" pointing to a really sinister source, which involved a few key individuals, backed by a larger number of very irresponsible individuals and agencies.

So what we are left with are coverups, dangerous labs perhaps not shut down, factory farms, wet markets, and the use of bushmeat, in Jungles in Africa and South America, and factory farms with millions of pigs & chickens. And the coverups involve agencies, virologists and at least one government. Before this we had mad cow disease, from feeding herbivore animals, feed with parts of dead animals mixed in, ( the same disease, which it was already known some cannibals (in Papua New Guinea , I think) got from eating other humans. called variously 'Kuru' , 'transmissible spongiform encephalopathies' , 'Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease' and 'bovine spongiform encephalopathy' . And lastly we may be more familiar with: one more story of human created pathogens both as germs & bugs. The germs are the antibiotic resistant strains. And the bugs the pesticide resistant insects.

It would seem the conclusion is that humans don't learn from experience, whenever profit, comfort or pleasure; or belief run counter to reason. It would certainly seem that long term such behavior can only lead to further disaster.


Edited by shiftingshadows, 12 May 2021 - 11:46 PM.

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#34 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 03:58 PM

I now know two people, Cha Ching

 

Sad that most people will never really hear this story. The propagandist narrative was established very early on, suspiciously too early if you ask me. One dicey opinion piece claiming that they had "proof" that it was not manipulated in a lab was all it took. Referenced by every media company as the smoking gun while in reality it was easily picked apart in this article

 

We all know that once an idea take root in our minds it takes triple the amount of work to try to change it

 

 

Edit: Sorry I just wanted to type it down somewhere before I forget.  A bit off topic but this has me thinking about a growing idea in my mind. How much of an influence does our amnesia have on our human experience.

 

But that is a thought for another thread


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 13 May 2021 - 04:06 PM.


#35 shiftingshadows

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 06:45 PM

" How much of an influence does our amnesia have on our human experience."

   I am most likely biased, as I take what most may consider a cynical view.

We forget most of the pains of our lives: 

birth, teething, childhood fears of monsters, sibling rivalry, nightmares, being bullied and beaten up by bigger kids, possibly parents, childhood diseases, loss of the vivd imaginations we had as kids, the list goes on and on

Anybody who really remained in contact with all this misery, might well conclude if one is to go on living being a junkie is all that makes sense.

   As  Albert Camus said:

“But in the end one needs more courage to live than to kill himself.” and

“Should I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?” 
   

   So as adults we all engage in various sorts self deceptions.

The most famous, is that over 50% of people think they are better than average drivers.

An impossibility.

    Less well know is that there are anywhere from about 10 to 15 ego defense mechanisms, that are not confined to neurotics, according to different lists by psychologists. The lists are available on line.

So I think it actually is not cynical to say folks cope with reality, by using many sorts of self deceptions.

So whether we call this a sort of 'amnesia', forgetting, or repression may not really matter.

What is necessary is some sort of barrier between truth, and what we wish to believe, both about ourselves and the world.

 

   So to the list, at the end of my post above, I would add the words in CAPS, below, as follows.

 

   "It would seem the conclusion is that humans don't learn from experience, whenever profit, POWER, VANITY, REPUTATION, comfort or pleasure (which includes SEX and the desire for PROGENY ( a sort of substitute for immortality); or belief, run counter to reason".

   And they partly avoid learning by distorting the truth with self deceptions or the "ego defense mechanisms" IMO.

 

   It would seem in the case of the Covid story: profit, power, and fear of discovery or reputation, motivated some of the main characters, to do things their better natures knew they shouldn't do.

   My view is that the evolution of human intelligence, is actually long term, a disaster, as it is a very narrow intelligence rooted in ego, or selfishness, and strategies that are mostly concerned with short term advantage. Due to the nature of ego it constantly distorts the truth, and so constantly runs into conflict with reality and copes with ego defense mechanisms, which only make matters worse.


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#36 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 04:26 PM

Lets start another thread for this one there could be some interesting discussion



#37 shiftingshadows

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Posted 21 May 2021 - 08:59 PM

This is about a 45 min read according to the website.

 

Formatting it would be crazy.

 

From Nicholas Wade a prominent retired Journalist that worked for the NY times for thirty something years wrote this. Not some conspiracy hack

....

 

https://nicholaswade...ues-6f03564c038

 

 

A very related article: "In 2018, Diplomats Warned of Risky Coronavirus Experiments in a Wuhan Lab. No One Listened."

 

this link died

 

https://news.yahoo.c...an-043020270.ht

now here, one can scroll down to many links

 

https://search.yahoo...t&ei=UTF-8&fp=1


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#38 August West

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Posted 23 May 2021 - 07:13 PM

Since, as Rooster says, most won't have interest or time in reading a 45-60 minute article, here's a primer interview with Nicholas Wade regarding his lab leak paper. I've been reading and watching quite a bit off of unherd.com for the last while. Freddie Sayers, the interviewer, is one of the best I've come across, maybe ever.

Here it is at unheard: https://unherd.com/t...ab-leak-theory/

[Direct Link]


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#39 shiftingshadows

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Posted 23 May 2021 - 10:24 PM

Thank you for the video /link. Nice to see Mr. Wade in person. As slow as I am, I preferred the article where I could easily review details. It all, seems surprising, I think, only if one is an idealist. At this point I expect human's to mess just about everything up. There are exceptions, but I do not expect them to  affect the great momentum of the major trends at this point.

 

At 23:50    " we don't have free speech anymore" ... on academic campuses ...

 

at 29 min    furin cleavage site  ...  technical  ... "smoking gun"

 

good interviewer


Edited by shiftingshadows, 23 May 2021 - 11:01 PM.


#40 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 25 May 2021 - 10:15 AM

At this point the fact that it may or may not have come from the lab almost seems like the secondary story. The way the media jumped on "truth" suppression appears to be the greater threat.... Well unless a gain of function virus did actually escape. Then the millions of dollars that team earth recently pumped into this same controversial research could be our literal undoing

We messed up nuclear technology because of our hubris, proclaiming this or that could or would never happen.

Was it only a matter of time for biotech to catch up?

Or do I mean Cover up

hey oooooohhh

Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 25 May 2021 - 10:17 AM.

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