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The Ministry of Truth is upon us.


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#1 August West

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 05:05 PM

What could go right?

 

One can only imagine the 24-7 coverage if the fascist, white supremacist Nazis in the Trump administration had proposed this. Instead... crickets. Not familiar with all the signatories exactly but a couple of them are disappointing. 

 

*I'm kinda over trying to get things to format appropriately.

 

 

 
Exclusive: Coalition calls on Biden to form disinformation task force

 

A coalition of groups is calling on President Biden to create a task force that can explore ways to crack down on deliberate disinformation campaigns in ways that don't unduly limit free expression.

 

Why it matters: The spread of false information around elections, health, climate and other pivotal issues has had a huge impact on American institutions, but civil liberties groups say it is critical to find solutions that maintain free speech protections.

  • "The prevalence of deceptions, propaganda, and conspiracy theories related to the 2020 election, COVID-19, and the recent Capitol insurrection illustrates the clear and present threat that disinformation poses to our democracy and national security," the group says in a letter to Biden being sent today and provided first to Axios.

 

  • "However, we are equally mindful that solutions adopted in moments of crisis can themselves pose significant dangers to our fundamental freedoms.

 

For the record: Signatories of the letter include Writers group' Pen America, Voto Latino, Common Cause, the Center for Democracy and Technology, Access Now, SimplySecure, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Center for American Progress, and Free Press.

 

Between the lines: As the groups note in the letter, policymakers have to thread a fine needle in trying to reduce misinformation while protecting free speech.

  • "We know that fighting disinformation also means remaining vigilant against censorship and other threats to free expression,” said Matt Bailey, director of Pen America's Digital Freedom Program. “We also know that disinformation itself is a profound threat to free speech, because it prevents the robust exchange of ideas and sows distrust and polarization.

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  • Dear President Biden,

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  • Congratulations on your election and your administration’s impressive first hundred days. We are writing as a coalition of human rights, free speech, democracy, and technology organizations to urge the creation of a federal interagency Disinformation Defense and Free Expression Task Force with domestic policy leadership.

    As we think about the next four years, we are keenly aware of the challenge the rampant spread of disinformation poses to our nation. The prevalence of deceptions, propaganda, and conspiracy theories related to the 2020 election, COVID-19, and the recent Capitol insurrection illustrates the clear and present threat that disinformation poses to our democracy and national security. However, we are equally mindful that solutions adopted in moments of crisis can themselves pose significant dangers to our fundamental freedoms. As Justice Brandeis once wrote, “fear breeds repression [and] courage is the secret to liberty.”

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    Urgent action is needed to ensure that our democracy does not continue to be overrun by disinformation, be it domestic or foreign in origin. Sound public health policy, free and fair elections, and effective democratic deliberation all depend upon getting disinformation under control. But the best tools we have for fighting disinformation can pose their own dangers. In the quest to defeat disinformation, we risk enabling censorship, exacerbating existing inequities, and inadvertently curtailing democratic discourse. American democracy thrives on inclusive and sometimes contentious debate. It requires the protection of free expression, imagination, and thought. We must find a path forward that tames the scourge of disinformation while elevating constructive dialogue and making space for robust disagreement and public debate.
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    As a coalition, we represent organizations committed to balancing and defending the values of free expression, racial justice, privacy, and freedom of expression in the fight for our democracy. We believe that it is crucial for diverse, interdisciplinary voices to be at the table as policies are developed to combat disinformation and foster a functional and vibrant information ecosystem. Therefore, we urge immediate creation of a task force to identify steps that the federal government can take to combat disinformation while safeguarding freedom of expression.
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    To best support these aims, the Disinformation Defense and Free Expression Task Force should be chaired by the Executive Director of the Domestic Policy Council. Its mandate should include:

    Development of governmental approaches that prioritize the defense of free expression in combatting disinformation;

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    Initiatives to blunt the impact of disinformation on Black, Latino, Indigenous, AAPI, rural, and immigrant communities that are deliberately and disproportionately targeted by disinformation, as well as veterans vulnerable to disinformation campaigns;
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    Identifying investigatory, disclosure, and information collection powers of federal agencies that can be leveraged to better understand disinformation and potential interventions;
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    Supporting research into the sociotechnical problem of disinformation, and especially its impact on Black, Latino, Indigenous, AAPI, rural, and immigrant communities; the prevalence of Spanish language disinformation in the U.S.; and identifying federal research priorities and funding mechanisms;

    Identifying strategies to increase media literacy among children and adults as a way to stem the spread of disinformation;

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    Engagement with social media companies on measures the platforms can take to defend against disinformation; and
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    Training on anti-disinformation strategies for government officials and staff.
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    Disinformation is a complex challenge that demands interdisciplinary solutions. An effective approach will entail mobilizing expertise from across the federal government, including from agencies that have not traditionally led in combatting disinformation, foreign influence, or related matters. The Task Force should include senior representatives from executive agencies like the Department of Commerce (in particular the National Institutes of Standards and Technology and the National Telecommunications and Information Administration), the Department of Education, and the Department of Justice (in particular its Civil Rights Division). It should include relevant national security officials like the National Security Council Coordinator for Democracy and Human Rights and appropriate representatives from the Intelligence Community. And it should include invited independent agencies with relevant regulatory and research mandates such as the Federal Communications Commission, the Federal Trade Commission, the Institute for Museum and Library Services, and the National Science Foundation.
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    The Task Force should consult broadly with civil society, including advocates for free expression, civil rights and racial equity, and journalism, as well as academic experts in sociology, psychology, and disinformation and online harm.
  •  

     

    Finally, disinformation is both an urgent and a rapidly evolving issue. The threat is protean. In order to make the Task Force effective we believe it must have twin mandates: to provide near term recommendations and to provide ongoing consultation and new initiatives over time. The Task Force should be mandated to deliver, within the first year of your administration, a comprehensive set of principles and overall policy, funding, and legislative recommendations for addressing disinformation and protection of free expression. It should also be mandated to provide periodic updates to these recommendations in recognition of the rapidly shifting cultural, political, regulatory, and technological environment.
  •  

     

    We look forward to collaborating with the talented members of your administration on this issue and others.

    PEN AmericaAccess Now, Andre Banks (Founder and CEO A/B Partners, Co-Founder Win Black), Ashley Bryant (Principal, A/B Partners, Co-Founder Win Black), Center for American ProgressCenter for Democracy & TechnologyCommon CauseElectronic Frontier FoundationFree Press, Katy Byron (MediaWise Editor & Program Manager, The Poynter Institute), Simply SecureVoto Latino


Edited by August West, 10 May 2021 - 05:06 PM.


#2 Juthro

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 06:53 PM

 

One can only imagine the 24-7 coverage if the fascist, white supremacist Nazis in the Trump administration had proposed this. Instead... crickets. Not familiar with all the signatories exactly but a couple of them are disappointing.

At least you openly admit the kind of people that trump, and his followers represent, and cater to.

 

Do you really believe the trump won the election, there is no climate change, and that COVID 19 is weaponized bug from a Chinese lab....?

 

It's a slippery slope anytime you want to restrict someone's rights to say things, but what should be done when those things are blatantly untrue, and are being given as official facts? 

 

I dont have an answer, but I'm not so quick to dismiss discussion of possible actions against this type of behavior.  It's a real problem, and IMHO it needs to be addressed on some level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#3 August West

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 08:48 PM

I find most of this response difficult to take seriously.

 

 


At least you openly admit...

I wasn't being earnest.

 

 

Do you really believe the trump won the election, there is no climate change, and that COVID 19 is weaponized bug from a Chinese lab....?

 

I refuse to defend arguments I never made (and wouldn't make such simplistic arguments about those topics anyway) and have no interest in burning straw men.

 

 

 

 

It's a slippery slope anytime you want to restrict someone's rights to say things, but what should be done when those things are blatantly untrue, and are being given as official facts? 

 

I dont have an answer, but I'm not so quick to dismiss discussion of possible actions against this type of behavior.  It's a real problem, and IMHO it needs to be addressed on some level.

 

Imo, there is no level where giving the government greater control is the answer. This is precisely the kind of knee jerk response that attention deficit voters typically push for. Then, when their team is no longer in control they're shocked and dismayed that such a thing exists. But, I'm sure over the course of the last several administrations, if The Ministry had existed, it would've debunked "weapons of mass destruction", the link between Saddam and bin Laden, Russiagate, OKC, the 9/11 official story....

 

And, a little "closer to home", I'm sure The Ministry would've put a stop to the uncountable false pretenses that led to "The War on Drugs". 


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#4 Juthro

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 09:02 PM

 

The Ministry had existed, it would've debunked "weapons of mass destruction", the link between Saddam and bin Laden, Russiagate, OKC, the 9/11 official story....

 

It seems to me that you burn the straw men of your choosing, as well as make your own over simplified arguments as it suits you, and if you reread my response you will see that I never said I support anyone's agenda, or that I am in favor of increased regulation.  I also clearly stated that I don't have the answer.  

 

I stand by the fact that I do believe the level of disinformation from the last administration was amplified, and weaponized to levels never seen before in my lifetime, and I do think it needs looked at closer.


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#5 August West

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 11:00 PM

 

 

The Ministry had existed, it would've debunked "weapons of mass destruction", the link between Saddam and bin Laden, Russiagate, OKC, the 9/11 official story....

 

It seems to me that you burn the straw men of your choosing, as well as make your own over simplified arguments as it suits you, and if you reread my response you will see that I never said I support anyone's agenda, or that I am in favor of increased regulation.  I also clearly stated that I don't have the answer.  

 

I stand by the fact that I do believe the level of disinformation from the last administration was amplified, and weaponized to levels never seen before in my lifetime, and I do think it needs looked at closer.

 

 

No straw men there. Those are clear instances that show administration after administration peddling in disinformation and misinformation when it suits them.

 

And nowhere did I insist that no discussion on this situation is merited. In fact, I posted a whole other thread with an essay where the underlying theme was the same. I do have an interest in the government playing zero role in finding the solution, however. A solution that would likely include itself wielding more and more power.


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#6 Arathu

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 05:07 AM

I've simply given up on making anything "better" and will slip and slide my way through regardless.......

 

The ministry INDEED! hahahahaha.....they are psycho's, IMHO ALL of them........

 

Freedom is for those with the proverbial brass balls to actually live it, and treachery, perhaps a bit of "tit for tat" a necessity......

 

I never dreamed of the day that I would see the USSA.......then again I didn't expect to live past 25.......

 

I hope the new ministry is reading this (not that I'm important enough to matter)......Regardless....."Go fuck yourselves!" :bat:  :ohmy:   :bat:

 

If you. as in anyone, can't work your way through the bullshit, deception, and dis-information I'd kindly suggest that you've now discovered your immediate lesson plan......

 

Government.......????? Yeah, OK....they're here to help.......hahahahahaha

 

A


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#7 Cuboid

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 08:09 AM

This 'fake news/disinformation/propaganda' shite has been going on forever I reckon. I was recently disappointed (but not entirely shocked) to find out about my own country's "Information Research Department (IRD)" which existed from the late 1940's in to the 1970's. I imagine it still exists just has a new name and is better hidden ...

 

Whilst I'm no fan of the extreme left (or extreme right for that matter) I can't just justify this stuff with "the end justifies the means", for me the objective truth is too important to sacrifice. There has to be a better way, one that brings people together somewhere in the middle ground, after-all, we might be very different but as humans we have more in common with all the other humans than some of us would care to admit. 

 

From https://en.wikipedia...arch_Department

 

"The Information Research Department (IRD), was a secret Cold War propaganda department of the British Foreign Office, created to publish anti-communist propaganda, provide support and information to anti-communist politicians, academics, and writers, and to use weaponised disinformation and "fake news" to attack socialists and anti-colonial movements.[1][2] Soon after its creation, the IRD broke away from focusing solely on Soviet matters and began to publish pro-colonial propaganda intended to suppress pro-independence revolutions in Asia, Africa, Ireland, and the Middle East. The IRD was heavily involved in the publishing of books, newspapers, leaflets, journals, and even created publishing houses to act as propaganda fronts, most notably Ampersand Limited.[3] Operating for 29 years, the IRD was notable for being the longest-running covert government propaganda department in British history, the largest branch of the Foreign Office,[4] and the first major anglophone propaganda offensive against the USSR since the end of World War II. By the 1970s, the IRD was performing military intelligence tasks for the British Military in Northern Ireland during The Troubles.[5]"


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#8 TVCasualty

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 10:22 AM

The Task Force should be mandated to deliver, within the first year of your administration, a comprehensive set of principles and overall policy, funding, and legislative recommendations for addressing disinformation and protection of free expression.

 

 

 

Since freedom of expression is already mostly protected then any new laws enacted regarding it must therefore infringe upon it or else there would be no point in passing them since they'd be redundant.

 

 

 

This has all the hallmarks of a fundamentally insoluble conflict. And one with built-in negative feedback loops that will probably only make things worse.

It’s not obvious or certain that the type of regulation, oversight, and “action” being called for is even possible at this point. Sort of like how gun laws as pertain to manufacturing and possession are being rendered moot by 3D printing advances. In countries where anti-government sentiment has erupted into violence the governments involved tend to just shut off the Internet, not regulate it or censor it piecemeal. There's a reason for that.

So a lot of money will no doubt be spent, but either disinfo will remain rampant because the efforts taken against it will be ineffective (e.g., “The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it,” or at least it used to) or else it will be successfully suppressed by breaking up the resilience and free flow of all information over the entire ‘Net (the proverbial baby of free speech gets tossed along with the bathwater of bullshit).


Finding facts in a blizzard of disinformation is like finding a needle in a haystack, but the creation of google’s search engine suddenly made it possible to search the whole stack in a fraction of a second. Historians might look back on that development in information technology as on par with the invention of the printing press. It didn't last long, though. Remember Google's original motto, "Don't be evil?" At least they were honest enough to scrap it.

The creation of sophisticated search algorithms caused a few problems at first (e.g., increased freedom and access to information for regular people). By "at first" I mean in the late-1990’s and early 2000’s; most people forget that google didn't exist until '98. That was before the creation of State-sponsored troll farms and “recommendation” algorithms for media that began to steer us all into data-mining echo chambers. This suggests it might be the algorithms that need scrutiny as threats to society, not freedom of expression itself.

 

Anyway, nowadays those who need to hide information make giant stacks of fake needles and it’s left to a public not generally well-educated in critical thinking (much less how to conduct primary research and assess the veracity of sources) to parse the signals from the noise and somehow make informed decisions about how to navigate life and society. Yeah, good luck with that.

I can’t help but think that the fake-needle approach of burying truth under mountains of lies in an ostensible democracy can be anything but a recipe for disaster. When tens of millions of people are misinformed and then vote based on what they “know” then we’ll pretty much inevitably end up where we now find ourselves.

Looks like it's Checkmate no matter which move we make.
 


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#9 bezevo

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 10:42 AM

Biden's Ministry of Fake News &  Propaganda...... MSNBC ....  all ready spewing Hate and Character  Assassination ....... Chicken Little Weather Reports ......   Fake Reasons to jack up energy costs .......on and on .. ect ect . All about power and control and the SHEOPLE ARE EATING IT UP .  

 

BOTH SIDES FULL OF EVIL POO 

 

WERE IS MY FOIL HELMET   !


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#10 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 05:29 PM

We all saw what the current ministry of truth did to the hunter Biden story. 

 

Alacazam... It's gone

 

Say what you want about the relevance of those particular documents but the way the media treated it like nuclear waste and refused to run it tells us a lot. Especially considering we had to listen to four years of them sucking on any old dirty tit that was dangling a trump Russia story. Thankfully they learned the lesson just in time for the hunter Biden laptop.

 

 

Russian interference of 2016 holds valuable lessons on what to do and what not to do in 2020,” wrote Thomas Rid in the Washington Post under the paper's "Perspective" section. “We must treat the Hunter Biden leaks as if they were a foreign intelligence operation — even if they probably aren’t.”

 

 What a time to get a moral conscious, or did they actually learn a lesson.... :rolleyes: .  We should be wary of the the dangerous precedent of butt kissing and curtailing to authority figures.  Could some of that behavior be attributed to the tribal reaction of watching the other cult like following that Trump had?

 

What we have now is the exact opposite of what real journalism is supposed to be. They were righteous in their fight when going up against Hitler Donald Trump but now that the gentle grampa is in office everyone goes to sleep. A real Journalist should be going up against large power structures that can crush them, not their fellow American citizens. A good example is the man Glenn Greenwald, who is currently hiding in Brazil for fear of persecution from the American government after helping to expose one of the biggest lies of our lifetimes.

 

I feel there needs to be some reckoning with the capitol riot but not in the way most people are talking about it. We need to restore faith in our institutions. The most important one being the media. We saw what happens when the news suppresses a story instead of working to expose the lie. It was like a festering wound hiding under a band aid, the capitol riot. The big dogs chose to slam the lid shut and say nothing to see here folks. I feel like there may have been a different outcome if the MSM would have put in a tiny bit of effort into debunking all that election noise. Then again perhaps not due to the partisan nature of the news, those same folk would not have believed any debunking anyway. It seems like they did not chase down one lead, interview one person and try to get the the actual truth of the story. You just had two options, massive cheating or no cheating at all.  Just release a press statement saying it was the most secure election ever that will calm everybody down. Next

 

Looks like that handy youtube truth banner below certain videos is here to stay.

 

 

Does anyone really think it was coincidence that big tech and the news seemed to align their narrative to dance in lock step leading up to the last election. In a particularity stunning fashion they managed to eliminate one of their biggest competitors from the internet overnight. All done under the guise of inciting the capitol riots, of course at the same time their platform hosted and made money off of the same inciting content. The idea that all those people were there because of parlor is hilarious, they were on facebook and snap chat ect too. The reason parlour got created is the fact that these big teck companies have become their own ministries of truth. They support the right to free speech but not here, go make your own platform to do that on. So they did and then when that became a big thing they threw them off the servers and basically said. Hey just go create your own internet if you want to have freedom of thought.  Right wing people have been facing banishment and silencing for years now for their alleged racist, sexist, ect  ideas

 

Like Ricky Gervais said, if your even mildly conservative on twitter your hitler.  The republicans and Heir Trump were talking seriously about breaking up these big tech monopoly's after realizing the political power they hold. Obviously they had greater concerns as it was their ideology that was being silenced. Notice how that narrative of to much power went away and it has shifted back to silencing the people. Somehow the American people are the ones with too much power, too much voice...

 

The government went from accusing big tech of engaging in too much censorship to not enough in about a months time. 

 

 

This last point is an easy one to bite on. You may support the ministry of truth idea while they are stamping out your ideological rivals, but don't forget election cycles only last four years. You soon could find yourself under the ministry of scrutiny's watchful eye for something you never thought possible. Think of it this way, would you want a ministry of truth if Donald Trumps government was in charge of it?



#11 Juthro

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 06:26 PM

 

A good example is the man Glenn Greenwald, who is currently hiding in Brazil for fear of persecution from the American government after helping to expose one of the biggest lies of our lifetimes.

 

Where did you hear that from, it is my understanding that it is the Brazilians that are trying to prosecute  Glen for hacking into cell phones of public officials as part of his investigative reporting. 

 

Back in a 2014 interview Greenwald had talked about his fear of detainment here in the US, but has visited the country many times since then, and there have been no issues to date.



#12 greenskeeper

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 06:36 PM

Things were so much simpler when there was only a handful of TV companies in charge of the truth.


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#13 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 04:43 PM

To me it appears to be a bit of a similar situation. Going up against a powerful government and in this case bringing actual charges against him. This was from Early last year

 

 

Brazilian prosecutors charged American journalist Glenn Greenwald on Tuesday with cybercrimes for his reporting last year on leaked cellphone messages that cast doubt on the impartiality of a corruption investigation that helped pave the way for the rise of Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro.

News of the criminal complaint sent shock waves through Brazilian society, with journalists and others denouncing it as a politically motivated attempt to stifle free speech and a threat to Brazilian democracy. Greenwald called the allegations baseless.

 

The US government has not officially charged him with anything but I thought I heard him saying something along the lines that he was not going to stick around to give them the chance.

 

 

To the Daily Beast, Greenwald said this:

 

“I’ve had lots of prominent [American] political and media figures calling for my arrest and prosecution and strongly suggesting, if not outright stating, that what I am doing is criminal.”

 

To be honest I had no idea he had risked it and returned a few times since. For the Record as far as I can tell the offical story is he moved to Brazil to be with his Husband. Time rolls on and things change so maybe all that ed snowden fear is old news now



#14 TVCasualty

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 10:05 AM

So how the hell do we assess truth or verify facts in our new post-reality Chaos Age?

 

I don't think Greenwald is a good fit for that job, for starters. Same goes for a government "task force."

 

It might not even be a job that CAN be done anymore at this point since any organization or committee or body that is established to attempt it will be perceived and attacked as partisan and oppressive by whichever group feels underrepresented within it. That will render any such group ineffective (at best) and leave us back where we started. Which is in the dark and not trusting anything or anyone else. Echo chambers form, wagons are circled, Others are demonized. Wash, rinse, repeat. That can't last, and a highly-complex and technically-advanced civilization can't endure in such a context for very long.

 

Delusions become much more consequential when they manifest in a context of advanced technology and unsustainable resource exploitation (believing that nature and forests and such were inexhaustible wasn't such a dangerously consequential delusion until the invention of hydraulics and internal combustion). But we can't dictate to others what the facts are, either. All such groups created for that purpose would be corrupted eventually, if not immediately.

 

The stakes in terms of money and power would be far too high for the players involved not to try to game any attempt at reform, and yet again we're quickly right back where we started.

 

Maybe agenda-driven mis- and disinformation is a kind of unavoidable sociological Strange Attractor (leaving us back where we started no matter what we do) that determines the fractal "shape" (the collective behavior) of large, complex societies? As such, any attempt to deviate from it would then naturally and spontaneously return to that state.

 

So a Ministry of Truth would quickly become a propaganda and disinfo machine even if it was created in good faith to seek actual truth.

 

It seems to me the only way to change what is arguably fractal structure would be to address it at its smallest scale (the individual), which would require everyone get a robust education in critical thinking skills and logical analysis and all the rest and parse truth from lies at the personal, individual level.

 

But then you're stuck dealing with the Board of Fallible Humans or whatever that's elected or appointed to draw up such a curriculum, and as such it would be subject to all the same issues as any such group (corruption and agenda-driven disinformation and propaganda). Back to where we started yet again. It's a very Strange (and frustrating) Attractor indeed.


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#15 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 03:34 PM

So how the hell do we assess truth or verify facts in our new post-reality Chaos Age?

 

 

A daunting question indeed

 

For the record I don't think Glenn is the man for the job either. He is just one man. Short of an actual person to person discussion, as limiting as this format may be it is ultimately the best thing going. Who would have guessed that blogs would become the new thought campus. I think the best landscape would be a somewhat balanced media where open discourse leads to struggle which leads to us learning life's tough lessons.

 

Someone made the comment that the new style of journalism that comes out of places like sub stack do fail to represent a wider view, and I would have to agree with that. You pay per person that you are interested in, so it can become a bit of a mono culture that way if your only listening to the one source.

 

Even if some journalistic balance was restored would it lessen the partisan nature of things? Hard to say at this point but I remain skeptical, it feels like people are more entrenched than ever in their political views. Then you have the issue like TV said above of either side perceiving the partisan truth as propagandist. It took thousands of journalists to make up what used to be a somewhat credible source of the truth.

 

Now it seems the idea of a corporate media is the best way to explain the current MSM minefield. Those people who would risk their careers in the pursuit of the truth are gone, risk making waves these days and lose your sexy pay cheque.  Can you really blame them for holding back and self censoring at this point. The risk for expulsion for your idea's has increased tenfold. I always felt like much of the bs culture was born in the corporate boardroom and for years I struggled to put it to words

 

Need a narrative to confuse some people and hide the truth, just pay for it!

 

 

It seems to me the only way to change what is arguably fractal structure would be to address it at its smallest scale (the individual), which would require everyone get a robust education in critical thinking skills and logical analysis and all the rest and parse truth from lies at the personal, individual level.

 

Part of the problem with this is I feel the average person does not have or is able to make the time for this. There are so many issues out there and those rabbit holes can often have no bottom. Folk are too busy with daily life to really spend the time deep diving into the issues. So we turn to a quick sound bite or video to make us feel like we are in the loop. Not saying it is right, but that is the way life can be sometimes, and I suppose I don't blame anyone for just wanting to try to maximize their happiness. Not everyone gets a kick out of engaging in long format material like some of us nerds. So perhaps this is the trick, to somehow make education more entertaining to the masses so we choose to engage in it more. Shot in the dark for sure

 

Imagine a world where the big push in education was increasing our children's ability to think critically. Teach them to be question information and find out where it comes from. Reminds me of a Carlin joke, something like "Parents don't want to teach their kids to question things because it undermines their authority".

 

These days it seems the educational push is to concentrate on making sure no one gets offended ever. A seemingly noble goal but the end result will likely be the death of any sort of confrontational or challenging conversation. As I have come to learn more recently this fact is quite sad, because in that space is where we truly learn from one another


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 13 May 2021 - 03:43 PM.


#16 shiftingshadows

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 10:07 PM

"Reminds me of a Carlin joke, something like "Parents don't want to teach their kids to question things because it undermines their authority". I don't think it was a joke. It was of course an over generalization. But is probably especially true of families, where both parents belong to the same orthodox religion. Or use corporal punishment.

Reminds one of another truth:

You need a license to drive a car, but  aren't required to have one to be a parent.

 

Those who have successful pure research scientists & mathematicians for parents, who love each other,  are the lucky ones.



#17 August West

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 10:53 PM

Those who have successful pure research scientists & mathematicians for parents, who love each other,  are the lucky ones.

 

This seems like a strange criteria in order to consider children lucky. 


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#18 Juthro

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 11:44 PM

 

Those who have successful pure research scientists & mathematicians for parents, who love each other,  are the lucky ones.

 

This seems like a strange criteria in order to consider children lucky. 

 

 

Yeah, I'm not really seeing a correlation either.



#19 TVCasualty

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 10:00 AM

Part of the problem with this is I feel the average person does not have or is able to make the time for this. There are so many issues out there and those rabbit holes can often have no bottom.


And why is the pace of modern life so frenetic? Whose interest does that serve? What's the big goddamned hurry?

 

Short of drastically cutting the human population down to sustainable levels (for the level of consumption most people aspire to) the only other way to maybe possibly avert the existential disaster we're rocketing toward is if we slow down in just about every way at every level of society. That's why the game is rigged to throw you off the go-nowhere hamster wheel you're running around on if you try to slow it down even a little. The homeless camps in every city serve as a reminder to keep your wheel spinning no matter what, or else.

 

Disinformation is a lot easier to spread if the pace of releasing it is kept fast (and relentless). We haven't explored and debunked a claim or assertion made today before there are a dozen new claims or assertions of questionable veracity to parse tomorrow. It's the mother of all Gish Gallops, but it won't last forever.

 

I think the luckiest children were the ones born before the development of agriculture. Or the ones that might be born in the distant future after we straighten all this crap out, assuming we can.



#20 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 03:55 PM

 

And why is the pace of modern life so frenetic? Whose interest does that serve? What's the big goddamned hurry?

 

That is another major reckoning we may or may not have to go through. The realization that so many of our decisions are based on  our subconscious fears and desires. Often when manipulated it can comes from our own families let alone society at large.  Get a job, get married, have kids, die. Otherwise you are a pariah of society, a degenerate. While this may turn out good for the majority of people we see how it can fail disastrously for others.

 

It would be nice to slow things down that's for sure. I propose legislation to enact "Island time" in north America. Then again god forbid I might have to wait ten minutes for my latte

 

You got me thinking of that slab city out in the desert. Seems like some folk are trying life without the hamster wheel. It does not look like a terrible life to me. Funny in this world of being uber connected to eachother we have managed to push aside our old sense of community. We are losing our heart, our connection to one another on a physical level. I think of the comparison of driving in a car, everyone is a bad ass behind thick glass and steel. Every once in a while someone loses it and steps out of their vehicle and that toughness fades away. Dose this form of communication without face facilitate us in being nastier to each other

 

No question the things that we covet in western and modern societies are fucked up, things like wealth and fame. This jumped to the power of ten when we gave the fifteen minutes of fame to the masses. Attainable with the right tweet or video sent from the palm of your hand. They provide happiness in a fast food form, quick and fills you up but ultimately leaves you unsatisfied in the long run.

 

And Jesus if the internet is any indication of how mankind works things don't look great. We built a massive network of communication that allows access to most of the worlds knowledge. Right at the tips of our fingers, and what do the majority of people spend their time on there doing. Jerking off. Our biological instincts take over and seem to dominate our lives for the most part

 

Sometimes I wonder if this age of misinformation is mankind struggling with our "evolution". Soon to be do or die time, we either evolve more into a machine symbiosis that is capable of processing all the noise efficiently. Or wait for it to reach a boil over point and watch the system crash down to a more manageable level. With the rise of AI we will likely get to go down some exciting and terrifying turns until we reach the end.


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 14 May 2021 - 03:57 PM.

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