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My agar trials - Quest for rizomorphic


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#41 Oldpunk

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 05:06 PM

I actually don't know. I dont see any danger in them growing a bit as long as they're healthy. But I'm speaking from very limited experience. I'm only on my first agar trial as well. A little ahead of you. I've got my first agar/grain jars colonized in shoeboxes and into the fruiting chamber just a few days ago.

I made up some sample jars and the ones with that light growth underneath the surface did not colonize grain very well. So all I can tell you is what I've run into recently.
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#42 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 01:45 AM

I actually don't know. I dont see any danger in them growing a bit as long as they're healthy. But I'm speaking from very limited experience. I'm only on my first agar trial as well. A little ahead of you. I've got my first agar/grain jars colonized in shoeboxes and into the fruiting chamber just a few days ago.

I made up some sample jars and the ones with that light growth underneath the surface did not colonize grain very well. So all I can tell you is what I've run into recently.

Thanks for the tips. I read that putting the grain jars with spawn in a dark area with decent temperature (~25-27c) is the best thing to do. No light. Even heard to leave them alone for at least 1 week before taking a look.

 

Good suggestion about leaving them grow as long as they aren't doing anything crazy. I have only seen documentation that says when to actually put them into grain spawn, but not what happens if you wait a bit longer to do it.

 

What grain did you use? I've got whole oats (regular feed type) that I'll boil up on the stove, let dry out a bit in the air, and then add to my jars to PC.



#43 Oldpunk

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 08:53 AM

I used wild bird seed. Half the jars I removed the sunflower seeds. I did just lose the first one to contamination, but the 2nd one is fine and sprouting pins. So I can't blame the seeds. Now that I think of it....the 1st one was a recycled bag. Maybe I didn't get it disinfected well enough. They are in Ziploc bags. Started 2 more from agar in shoeboxes that are a few days into the fruiting chamber.

I just pasteurized a batch of sub last night to start a couple more from agar as well as my batch of test jars. I keep all my jars in my dark closet....but have been without a furnace so the temps are 60-65f (15-18c) I try to keep the fruiting chamber 72-75 (22-24c)

#44 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 11:13 AM

Wonderful! Sounds like you are looking pretty good! Did you PC the jars you had the birdseed in?

 

I've just made a batch of whole oats (2.5kg) worth in all the pots I had available. They have been air drying on baking pans for the past 45 minutes and I'll let them sit a bit before doing a dry test on them. Going to be PC'ing them tonight. Well, some. I need to PC them for 2 hours each batch and my options are limited. I'll likely do a batch tomorrow for PC. Thursday I will be adding the agar stuff.

 

Fingers crossed I can keep up this momentum.



#45 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 12:47 PM

Well, my PC can fit 4x 1liter jars (~1qt). So, I had thought I would need 3 batches, and in the end, I still need 3 batches. That's fine. I'll PC 2x tonight and another tomorrow during the day and then I'm all prepped for Thursday to inoc them with the myc agar.



#46 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:39 AM

Ok, first of 3 batches done. In the first batch, I PC'ed it for what I now know as too long and some of the grains got burned on the bottom of the jar. I hope those are still good. It's like a layer of 2 grains on the bottom. I shook the jars (they still break up) and moved the points around which I hope to be ok.

 

Today, batches 2 and 3 will be PC'ed for up to 90 minutes only with 10 minutes given for air venting before turning the heat down to medium.



#47 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 02:52 AM

Ok, now I've noticed that the first 4 jars have cracked on the bottom. They aren't shattered and appear still tight. I know I cannot use them for another PC session again. How good are they to proceed as being used as spawn jars? The cracks are either an inch or two or stretching several inches up the side of the jar.

Thankfully I've got 8 more jars to PC so it's not a total loss.

*edit* - The 4 cracked jars were left in the PC, sealed, overnight and only opened this morning. The cracking was not due to rapid cooling. Jars were not fully sealed, only half lid open and covered with foil. Same procedure as when I made the no-pour agar jars.

*edit 2* - After more reading, I now realize why they cracked. The water in the bottom dried out. That's why. They were burning directly on the bottom of the plate thingy (name escapes me atm).

*edit 3* - Next batch of jars have been PC'ed. Did 80 minutes to be safe. No visible signs of cracking. Lots of water was used up in the bottom of the PC'er. No burned grains either. I think, unless someone has another theory, that the first batch was in for too long causing burned grains and cracking to take place.

*edit 4* - Thinking back, the first 4 batch of jars did not look cracked when I took them out. I did shake them to mix them around a bit, and only afterwards did I notice there were cracks. I was confused when suddenly there were cracks. This would indicate that the jars were already cracked (not visible) due to being in the PC for far too long and only cracked up when I shook them. For safety, I've used some duct tape and taped over all the cracks on the 4 jars. I will go ahead and use them anyway and just be gentle or not bother shaking at all. Toss then done being used.

The 4 jars from batch 2 have been shaken, are still quite warm, and are not showing any signs of cracking. I am defaulting back on that they were in for too long in my small PC. It's hard to translate large US standards of doing things into non US standards. I just need to be more careful and under do rather than overdo. I've ordered another batch of 6 jars (sold in 6) to replace the 4 and have 2 backups. From the broken jars, I'm out basically $20 which I can live with.

Edited by rhapsodyclaymore, 02 June 2021 - 03:59 AM.


#48 Oldpunk

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 08:08 AM

Sounds like you've been busy.

Not sure what to tell ya on the burned ones.... You REALLY don't wanna run out of water. And after reading this all. I think I only ran mine for 30 min. Which probably isn't long enough. And I knew that, but I was probably in a hurry trying to do too many things at once. I hope I didn't doom myself...

This stuff definitely has a learning curve. Doesn't it?

There's only one way to know if it'll work. Try it and see What happens. Or take it as an experience and toss the mistakes and start over.
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#49 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 08:33 AM

Sounds like you've been busy.

Not sure what to tell ya on the burned ones.... You REALLY don't wanna run out of water. And after reading this all. I think I only ran mine for 30 min. Which probably isn't long enough. And I knew that, but I was probably in a hurry trying to do too many things at once. I hope I didn't doom myself...

This stuff definitely has a learning curve. Doesn't it?

There's only one way to know if it'll work. Try it and see What happens. Or take it as an experience and toss the mistakes and start over.

There's maybe 30 grains on the bottom of each jar that got burned. Shaking them around spread them out just fine. I mean, 95% of the rest of the grains are just fine. I've taped over the cracks for safety and I'll just roll with that.

 

I never guessed that I would run out of water. I had no issues after 80 minutes on the 2nd batch. I've added a bit more water on batch 3 now to ensure there's plenty. After batch 2, the water level was just under the tray. And still, batch 2 is not broken or cracked at all, nor burned.

 

Let me know how your stuff goes. I'm curious to see how well ours turn out.



#50 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 10:23 AM

3rd batch came out just like the 2nd batch. All good. No signs of cracks yet. Let cooldown for 1-2 hours before removing and tightening the lids. So the sweet spot for my PC is around 80 minutes of actual PC'ing on medium with 10 minutes of venting of air before.



#51 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 12:08 PM

Ok, I have successfully inoculated 12x 1L spawn jars with the agar cups. I realized my jars were too big for the holes in the SAB, and I could only get 6 inside at a time to comfortably work. I took my time, cleaned each batch and each jar and anything needing to go into the SAB, then sprayed down the inside and let it all settle for around 5 minutes.

 

The hardest part was the agar wouldn't all just come nicely out of the jar. I ended up after a while flipping the agar jar so it almost completely covered the mouth of the spawn jar and used the sterile knife to get them down into the jar. Then, holding the agar jar to cover the mouth of the spawn jar completely, I carefully switched them for the lid of the jar to screw on without making a downward motion or trying to cause air currents to go into the spawn jar. Entire process of getting this done for each jar (in the end) was around 6 seconds of exposure time in the SAB.

 

Now, all 12 jars are in a cardboard box and will sit for a while until ready to get planted. Maybe in 3 weeks.



#52 rockyfungus

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 12:16 PM

Those little plastic cups you can just crunch and let the whole puck fall into your jar. No need for a knife and way more sterile.

Pre-crunch make sure loose, open her up and drop in. 



#53 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 12:38 PM

Those little plastic cups you can just crunch and let the whole puck fall into your jar. No need for a knife and way more sterile.

Pre-crunch make sure loose, open her up and drop in. 

I used the 2oz cups initially, but made transfers from them into no-pour agar plates which were made of glass. My plans changed during the process based on recommendations. The no-pour plates were done as an idea to cut down on 1 potential contam vector.


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#54 rockyfungus

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 01:20 PM

My bad, cut a huge square. Then cut that square into individual squares. Feed 3-4 squares or what looks right into each jar.

Just make 'em bigger transfers ya know. 



#55 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 01:23 PM

My bad, cut a huge square. Then cut that square into individual squares. Feed 3-4 squares or what looks right into each jar.

Just make 'em bigger transfers ya know. 

I played a massive game of Tic Tac Toe on the agar before dumping. The entire plates were grown out on the surface and I didn't want to waste much. But 3-4 squares are ok? I mean, yes, I know it would be fine, but thinking colonization time with less points in the jar.



#56 Oldpunk

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 07:02 PM

The more you use the faster it colonizes. Right? Makes sense.....or maybe I'm wrong and one little slice will suffice.

My jars all got the plastic cups this time. I also did some larger no pour jars and I can see why this might get tricky. But that's a problem for future me. (Don't tell anyone but I also did a small batch of oven pour cups with my left over agar)

My first agar to grain bins started pinning this morning. So I'm super excited to see how they grow out.

Good luck on the jars!

Edited by Oldpunk, 03 June 2021 - 07:04 PM.


#57 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 04 June 2021 - 03:40 AM

Yeah exactly. The more points in the jar with myc on it, the faster the jar should colonize. That's why I really sliced up the agar into as small of chunks as I could despite the agar just, spinning around on the bottom of the glass jar after a few slices which proved difficult, but it worked out.

 

So my plan is, or theory for that matter, is to have these jars colonized in 2 weeks. Maybe 3. So, in an agar run from proper myc to transfer from, I need about 1.5 weeks for the size of my agar jars to have them fully grown out to the edge of the jar, then 2 or 3 weeks in the spawn jar, and then ready for the tub. To the tub stage, ~1 month of work.

 

The reason I'm doing this is to understand the efforts and time to maximize getting another batch done after this one. I have no way of knowing the yield of my 12x 1L spawn jars when boxed, but it is a good idea to see when I can get another batch up and running.

 

Good luck to you too on your pinning! I can't wait to get to that stage in a few weeks.



#58 rhapsodyclaymore

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Posted 05 June 2021 - 05:04 AM

After 48 hours, I checked on the jars a bit to see how they are going in a dimly lit room to not spook them too much with light. They are starting to fuzz up a bit. These little guys are pretty strong! It wouldn't surprise me if they took over the jar in 2-3 weeks.

 

My goal for that time is to figure out the right formula for coco choir that I need for a good 2:1 ratio. I realize that 1 brick is not enough, so I may need 1.5 bricks with the rest of the vermiculite. That means, for 12L of spawn, I'll need 24L of substrate mix.

 

The other thing I'm wondering is that I'm using Bod's unmodified box stuff and mine has the rubber seal. What I wonder is how to position the lid for the first 10 days or so to get the ideal fruiting conditions. I realize closing the bin lid and sealing it off will lock out airflow, so I guess I just keep the lid down and not clamp it with all the clamps? Then when I want to put the bin into fruiting conditions, I just flip the lid upside down?



#59 rockyfungus

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Posted 05 June 2021 - 08:37 AM

IME, and I haven't done real rigorous testing...There is a limit to how much you can inoculate a substrate. After a certain amount your wasting spores, agar, LC, etc.

1 "wedge" vs 3-4 "wedges" does not colonize any quicker, especially when you need to shake up the jars once it's 30%ish. That shake will move a hell of lot more myc around then your agar.

Anyone else have any knowledge on wasted myc?



#60 Oldpunk

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Posted 05 June 2021 - 09:41 AM

On the coir sub. After making a few shoeboxes I think about 100g coir per jar is about right. I add about 1/2 cup vermiculite to that. (I don't know the metric conversion for a cup)

The coir bricks I buy are 450g and a full one makes 4 shoeboxes. Those are 5.7liter bins.

If that helps.
And it's ok to peek at the jars. The light will not hurt them unless you set it in the direct sunlight.....i think. I peeked at mine all the time.




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