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Some follow up Chem questions


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#21 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 09:22 PM

Thank you Norman, that makes complete sense! Is there another choice for salting besides HCl?

What does the defatting step do in a Mezcaline extraction? Remove the plant waxes from the material? If you did the extraction w/out defatting, would it still work and just end up with a inferior product? Are there other "common" extractions that require defatting?

"it’s so horrifying seeing your skin wash off"

^^^This is the stuff of nightmares!
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#22 Norman

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 09:51 PM

Sulphuric is also common and I’ve heard of both citric and acetic being used.

Cactus has a lot of fats that get in the way and are a general pain in the ass when you’re doing the later steps. Most plants will need a defat - MHRB is somewhat uncommon in that it doesn’t.
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#23 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 10:13 PM

Thank you!

#24 bezevo

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 10:15 PM

Hummm........correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the POOL  PH adjusting acid they sell at like Lowe's 15%  solution of Hydrochloric Acid also known as muriatic acid, is an aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride

 

i guess you could google that ha

 

330px-Hydrochloric_acid_dissociated.png


Edited by bezevo, 06 June 2021 - 10:29 PM.


#25 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 11:39 PM

Yes. PH DOWN (or whatever it's called) is generally just HCl & water. Always check the SDS (they used to be called MSDS, but that changed in 2012, thanks OSHA!) document for any chemical you buy at the hardware store before you buy it. You can usually Google the name of any product + SDS or MSDS and find it right away from the manufacturer's website in PDF format.

I hope Freddie is well!
...
Freddie's work on the sloop in international waters comparing the two is a great read!

Thanks for asking after my buddy. He got it into his head that he needed to take off for Tristan da Cunha in the south Atlantic, see some penguins, & take a picture by the famous "Welcome To The Remotest Island" sign. I suspect something went wrong on the way & the sloop went down. My last communication with him was an e-mail he sent from the Falkland Islands around December, 2015.

There's not a lot of land out that way, and TdC documents all ship visits and flotsam & jetsam that washes up on the archipelago on their website, as well as all newly discovered shipwrecks. No sign of Freddie these past 5 years, but I still check periodically...

I like to think that he managed to float ashore somewhere (Inaccessable Island would be a hilariously poetic landfall) and is still out there doing experiments with beakers made out of tree bark or something. Until I hear otherwise I consider the sloop to be "Still on Patrol" (as opposed to "Lost") and imagine him living off of fish, sea birds eggs, and whatever random fruits & veggies happen to grow on his little island.

He'll be back some day, I'm sure of it. ;)

Sulphuric is also common and I’ve heard of both citric and acetic being used.

My understanding has always been that sulphuric requires more precise calculations to yield the beautiful silver needle-like crystals of Mescaline sulfate since it doesn't evaporate like HCl.

Can one get crystalline mescaline salts from citric and acetic? I've only ever heard of them (and even the carbonic acid in carbonated water) being used to yield some goo in an attempt to get a more full-spectrum salt form of cactus tea alkaloids so as to avoid drinking the tea...

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 06 June 2021 - 11:58 PM.

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#26 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 07 June 2021 - 01:02 AM

Hopefully Freddie has a better assistant!

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#27 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 09:07 PM

Could adding too much NaOH reach a point where the NaCl could not dissolve into solution?

Would there be an issue storing the final acidified solution (with mezcaline) for days/weeks before evap and clean up?
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#28 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 12:04 AM

Chemically speaking, adding NaOH decreases the solubility of NaCl and vice versa. This is the Common Ion Effect if you want to follow along in your copy of Silberberg (2006). Practically speaking, you're never going to come anywhere near the saturation point for either (1000g/L for NaOH, 360g/L for NaCl) compound in the Clandestine Lab.

Theoretically, your mescaline salts are slightly more stable in solution than as a solid, so provided you're using an appropriate container they could be stored indefinitely in solution with very little degradation.

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 12 June 2021 - 12:05 AM.

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#29 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 01:31 AM

Thank you Phineas!

I was curious about the Na saturation point but those levels are huge. I saw a photo online where someone had NaCl salt crystals blocking their seperatory's spout. This was during based cacti liquid / polar solvent phase. I think he worked around it by mixing in a jug then decanting into a seperatory? Any thoughts why this happened? They looked coarse like Kosher salt crystals not Iodized.

Interesting about it's water stability. I wonder if it handles freezing well?

#30 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 03:11 AM

You know how when you're making a brine in the kitchen you have to stir the salt around for a while to get it to dissolve? I'm betting they just added kosher salt directly to their Sep funnel & it settled to the bottom to clog the spout before it could dissolve. Once they're down in the spout not enough of the solution can come into contact with the crystals to dissolve them & they just stick there. Dumping everything into a jug after the clog and then mixing would have given the salt time to dissolve.

The other possibility is that someone told them to add a "handful" of kosher salt to their base solution. One person's "handful" is another person's "metric shit-ton," and not all Kosher salts are created equal.

Diamond Crystal kosher salt is 9g per tablespoon, so 360g of Diamond Crystal is about 2.6 cups. Morton's kosher salt on the other hand is 14g per tablespoon, so 360g of Morton's is only about 1.6 cups. If the person giving advice (or writing the recipe) uses Diamond Crystal & you use Morton's your solution (or pie) is gonna be salty as heck if you measure with volume & not weight...

I can't imagine freezing would hurt anything. Come to think of it, slightly acidified (with a food-grade acid) ice cubes with a measured dose dissolved in each one would be a really stealthy way to store and dose... Just make damn sure to squirrel them away nice & hidden before the in-laws or the church choir comes over for a backyard barbeque!

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 12 June 2021 - 06:13 AM.

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#31 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 11:22 AM

Thank you again Phineas!

Mezcal popsicles........ :)

After is is all done, is it OK to dump the (solventless) based cacti juice down a slow drain and rinse thoroughly or neutralize first?

#32 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 03:52 PM

No need to neutralize. The instructions printed on sodium hydroxide sold as drain opener are to pour the crystals directly into the slow drain, let them sit for a few minutes, then flush with hot water.

#33 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 04:21 PM

For the solvents, proper recycling would be best.

If you were unable to recycle, I'd imagine small amounts of Xylene and Toluene would evap on a warm day. What about food grade limonene? Down a drain as a degreaser followed by hot water? Evaporate?

#34 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 05:13 PM

The general rule in chemical disposal is "there's always something downstream." When we evap things the atmosphere is the downstream we need to worry about. If recycling or hazmat disposal is not possible, one should generally put non-polar solvents in a container, add enough kitty litter to completely absorb the liquid, seal the container and discard in standard trash. Yeah, it's not ideal, but it's marginally better than just evaporating. At least this way the solvent is contained & if the landfill is properly managed it's not going anywhere.

Limonene can be diluted & poured down the drain or incinerated unless it contains plastic or polystyrene residue, in which case it should be evaporated so that the residue can be recovered & disposed of properly.

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 12 June 2021 - 05:15 PM.

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#35 Norman

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 06:59 PM

If you’re taking solvent in to a household hazardous waste site, put a little paint into it, bring it in the original container or a paint can (not a glass pickle jar with “200g MHRB/ NaOH written on the lid) and have a story. What you used it for, why that solvent, what kind of brush, etc. Those guys know their shit and they do ask.
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#36 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 10:24 PM

I forgot to ask about the Acetone used in the clean up. Give it the same treatment as Xylene/Toluene?

I believe it was mentioned, if you acidify too much during salting, you pull undesirables that you normally wouldn't. If you added more water to dilute and raise the pH back to 5.5, would these undesirables go back into the solvent?

That is great advice Norman, to avoid any issues!

#37 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 12:16 AM

Yeah, dispose of the acetone just like the non-polar solvents. It's less of an environmental hazard than the aromatics, but the bleeding heart eco-terrorist hippie in me says if you can dispose of something properly, you should.

It takes an awful lot of water to move pH a very small amount. I got really into canning & pickling & lactobacillus fermentation (Hot Sauce/Sauerkraut anyone?) a few years back. I brought my chemist brain along for the ride and measured the ph of various water/vinegar mixtures to dial in the very best ph for my great-grandmother's circa 1927 agurkesalat recipe:

5% distilled vinegar right out of the jug was pH 2.42
A 25/75 mixture of water/vinegar was 2.45
A 50/50 mix was 2.56
A 75/25 mix was 2.71

Increasing the ph by dilution really isn't feasible; if one overshoots the target salting pH, they've just overshot & will end up with brown product. Purification with cold Acetone after the fact works just fine if this happens.

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 13 June 2021 - 12:33 AM.

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#38 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 13 June 2021 - 11:27 PM

That makes sense, thank you.

I had to google agurkesalat, looks delicious! I enjoy pickled things and apparently there is a with or without sour cream recipe. I must do some testing!
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#39 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 14 June 2021 - 12:37 AM

Wait wait wait, WHAT!? Sour cream in your agurkesalat!!?????!!???????

*Frantic Googling*

Great-grandma (Oldemor) would be rolling in her grave if she caught me contemplating Norwegian agurksalat with all of its creamy possibilities (some chopped dill would be a game-changer) as opposed to her Danish agurkesalat! (Scandanavian languages are delightfully similar but hilariously different lol)

Ragnhild's (Rhine-Hild) agurkesalat recipe is as follows:

Salt thinly sliced cucumbers & let them sit in a bowl for a while to draw out excess moisture. Drain & rinse, and gently squeeze if your cucumbers can handle it. You don't want to turn them into mush.

Mix equal parts water, white vinegar, and white sugar, stirring until the sugar dissolves. Ragnhild always used 1dL (a scant half cup) of each per cucumber.

Add the liquid to the cukes with a healthy amount of fresh-ground black pepper and taste for salt. Refrigerate while you cook the rest of the meal to allow the flavors to meld.

Scoop the salad out of the liquid and serve in small dishes alongside whatever meat-and-potatoes meal you're eating. The cool crunchy green tanginess is a nice compliment to meat-heavy Northern European cuisine.

For a Southeast Asian version, check out Oi Muchim ;)

Please forgive me for rambling my way into the kitchen! Cooking is chemistry too, right?

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 14 June 2021 - 01:18 AM.

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#40 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 14 June 2021 - 01:52 AM

Thank you for sharing great grandma Carmichael's recipe! I feel like a long, long, long+++ lost cousin now! I make something similar using cucumbers, onions and peppers. Oi muchim is getting added to the list! Baking and cooking are definitely delicious chemistry!
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