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Give us back our culture


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#1 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 04:44 PM

Now this seems like a clear case of cultural appropriation.

 

Wearing a costume of a samurai in times square, not so much. These words can have meaningful expression. However when applied in a nonsensical blanket like approach they quickly lose their meaning.

 

 

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#2 makinbones69

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 06:33 PM

I had a response. I'm not respondin with any intellectual response i decided so i took that bitch down.. Todays political environment makes me a villain no matter what position I take. I say give them their shit back tho all day thats wrong..

Give me back my fucking culture.

Good day world.

Edited by makinbones69, 08 June 2021 - 10:03 PM.

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#3 Oldpunk

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 11:04 AM

Todays political environment makes me a villain no matter what position I take.


Yep.
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#4 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 12:08 PM

Now this seems like a clear case of cultural appropriation.

 

Wearing a costume of a samurai in times square, not so much. These words can have meaningful expression. However when applied in a nonsensical blanket like approach they quickly lose their meaning.

 

 

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He's talking about straight-up theft, which was always par for the course in Colonialism.

 

Just imagine what's in the Vatican's basement. There's like 40+ miles of tunnels down there, though they probably use kilometers but we don't since the only culture Americans don't appropriate is the metric kind, apparently.

 

Some institutions and collectors might return a few token items, but I don't think we're going to see museums full of what's been plundered from the world suddenly send all that stuff back to where it was mostly stolen from.

 

And in some cases an argument can be made that not having all your cultural artifacts in your own country is actually a very good idea since as we've seen in recent years some places are prone to being overrun by violent mobs of divinely-inspired and staggeringly-ignorant dipshits during which most if not all such artifacts are simply destroyed (such as ISIS). But if it wasn't for the history of colonialism that ravaged the region then ISIS almost certainly wouldn't exist in the first place, so there's that.

 

 

When Europeans go to war against each other in Europe, they steal each other's valuable stuff, too.

 

It's not a heritage of racism so much as one of unrestrained rapacious greed (Western Imperialists have always equal-opportunity despoilers; "it's just business"). The racism came later almost as an afterthought in efforts to help maintain public approval and support back home since it would've been awkward to do all that brutal colonial stuff to the colonized if the people committing such atrocities had thought of those they were ripping off, exploiting, slaughtering, or enslaving as actual human beings.

 

 

There's a big difference between "cultural appropriation" and the concept of a cultural "melting pot" as a net-positive thing. "Appropriation" is condemned as an unambiguously negative phenomenon because it's patronizing and belittling (and often overtly racist), among other issues.

 

Opposing appropriation but advocating for a cultural melting pot where everybody gets along and shares the good parts of whatever culture they came from seem to be contradictory values, but the cringe-inducing Halloween costumes help clear things up IMO since they are what I'd characterize as some of the most unambiguous examples of appropriation. If a costume seems like the kind of caricature of cultural stereotypes that you'd assume a 12-year old would find hilarious then it's probably safe to say it's an example of appropriation.

 

When genes gather and mix from far and wide the offspring produced can embody what's described as "hybrid vigor." When memes gather and mix the same thing happens in a cultural sense, and a good example of how that's a net-positive is food. Another is music.

 

The flip-side of that is what can happen if a culture is too insular. The meme equivalent of in-bred senescence. Shit gets weird in such places. North Korea comes to mind as an example. I'm glad I don't live there, to put it mildly.

 

 

Granted, there's a growing group of self-appointed (and mostly adolescent, it seems) culture police who go off the deep end about this stuff and are inspiring counter-productive and sometimes dangerously-strident backlashes (which shocks and horrifies them as their naivete gets schooled by unpleasant realities). They seem to think that arguably-inconsequential stuff like a white man or woman with dreads is a crime against humanity or something. That one is especially silly since dreads are not exclusively an example of black or African culture (ancient Greeks and Aztecs had them, as did pretty much any group that gave up when it came to the rigors of pre-industrial hair care; e.g., pirates, explorers, hippies,  etc.). 

 

Many women (of all races) who compete in MMA style their hair in cornrows before fights. If they happen to be white are they terrible people and racist for doing so?

 

It's the best hair style to have while in a fight if they have long(ish) hair since it denies their opponent something to grab and when ground fighting it acts as a way to inflict an extra measure of pain by grinding the cornrows into their opponent's skin to help break out of certain holds or locks or whatever (that shit really does hurt!). So to me that's no more a case of the negative kind of appropriation than an American MMA fighter using any techniques from jiu-jitsu in a fight (Brazilian or traditional). A major aspect of Bruce Lee's genius was in how he blended the best parts of the three martial arts cultures he drew from to create JKD (one from China, one from Europe, and one from the U.S.).

 

 

Not taking such a tediously nuanced view of such a fraught topic is how the media plays the divide-and-conquer game to keep We the Peasants bickering forever amongst ourselves while the ruling class laughs all the way to the bank that's too big to fail.

 

Forget about Elon's African lithium mines, let's focus on getting Karen fired for what she said to that store clerk! :bat: Because my time is valuable and I spend it wisely as my world is drying up and catching fire all around me, damn it!

 

 

 

Apologies again for the length. I'm stuck rained out again waiting on shit to start moving again so that I can start moving again which means I've got too much time on my hands at the moment. I got 5 inches of rain in 3 hours two days ago and another 6+ inches in about six hours the week before. There's 3-4 more inches about to drop on me momentarily. Might be time to check some pastures though...


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#5 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 03:15 PM

Yeah it mostly seems to be attached to what I perceive as silly instances of it. Costumes at Halloween. 

 

I wonder if some folk could point out some obvious instance that they see as cultural appropriation?

 

I mean I could see how say native culture is annoyed when some dude puts on a head dress, and pretends to be a shaman. But at what point is it about dressing up in costume to have fun, and when is it using something you don't really understand incorrectly for your benefit. Like having fake ceremonies and charging people for it

 

Can a person be taught such things and then allowed to do so, or is it simply a metrix based on the colour of your skin

 

Is that the line we should draw?

 

I ask in earnest I really have not done much research on the subject



#6 TVCasualty

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 08:00 AM

Yeah it mostly seems to be attached to what I perceive as silly instances of it. Costumes at Halloween. 

 

I wonder if some folk could point out some obvious instance that they see as cultural appropriation?

 

I mean I could see how say native culture is annoyed when some dude puts on a head dress, and pretends to be a shaman. But at what point is it about dressing up in costume to have fun, and when is it using something you don't really understand incorrectly for your benefit. Like having fake ceremonies and charging people for it

 

Can a person be taught such things and then allowed to do so, or is it simply a metrix based on the colour of your skin

 

Is that the line we should draw?

 

I ask in earnest I really have not done much research on the subject

 

If someone is putting on ceremonial attire for "fun" then it might be a case of mocking appropriation since it would be interpreted by members of the culture whose attire is being worn by others as profoundly disrespectful. Those big stereotypical headdresses that were only a thing among one tribe of many have complex and intricate symbology intended to communicate a lot of information to those who know what they're looking at. To put something like that on in order to go to a party is implicitly stating "fuck your culture, it's just a prop for my drunk amusement!"

 

 

The problem with freedom of expression that may not be solvable is that to really work right it requires an ambient level of consciousness that our species may not possess or be capable of possessing. We've certainly had enough time to make it happen if we truly had such potential, but here we are making Idiocracy, The Handmaid's Tale, Mad Max, Outbreak, and probably eventually even Soylent Green into non-fiction dystopias. Yay progress!

 

I'm an absolutist when it comes to freedom of speech, and the unfortunate side-effect of that stance in our world of semi-domesticated, semi-conscious primates is that it means we have to put up with a lot of really ignorant, mean-spirited, immature, and infuriating crap.

 

But where exactly the lines that should not be crossed are is ultimately subjective, which is why it's a consciousness problem and not something we'll ever legislate or enforce our way out of. We're free to be assholes, but ideally we would choose not to be.

 

It sounds simplistic and maybe even juvenile to say it, but I really do think that the solution to all of it is more drugs, ASAP.

 

But not just any drugs. I only mean entheogens, consumed with an intent to learn and expand one's own awareness and empathy. Once that's achieved then people who aren't sociopaths generally regulate their own behavior accordingly. This is what was accomplished by the Mysteries of Eleusis in ancient Greece, and why they considered it to be the glue that held civilization itself together. I would argue that a lack of that glue is why ours is falling apart.

 

There's probably still a way to fix this mess but I get the impression that we don't have much time left to do it, so I guess the thing to do as far as I can tell is keep trying to encourage the spread and consumption of entheogens while I still can. They are the force-multipliers of consciousness.

 

Nobody likes to be preached at, so it's much more productive to facilitate people's personal direct experience and let the molecules do all the talking. They're far more eloquent and compelling than any human could ever be, however well-intentioned.


Edited by TVCasualty, 11 June 2021 - 08:04 AM.

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#7 Mycol

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 11:06 AM

I’d rather be a villain than a victim . Maybe I could steal it back for them . Is it stealing if you take what’s stolen ?

Edited by Mycol, 11 June 2021 - 11:07 AM.


#8 bezevo

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 12:54 PM

LETS PLAY COW BOYS AND INDIANS ! Weeeeeeee....!

 

No doubt  i i will  soon be burnt at the stake POLLUTING the air ...  buy the politically correctness mobs arriving in there

Not Green Prius ...Made with lots steel and plastic... made with coal ,petroleum and gigantic earth raping lithium pit mines . 

 

NOT GREEN   !

 

Are you offended .........

 

On a funny note

As a Child   we lived in RANCH Country ,the Native American kids wanted to be the  Cowboys and the little Scandinavia    kids wanted to be the  Indians ...we had Toy Guns ...shudder . We had a blast .

 

NEXT INSTALLMENT we will discuss ... COPS and Robbers  HEH .................this also involved Toy GUNS ! 

oh no !

 

And Last  ...My High School Official  Gun Policy !.....Real Guns !

 

" If you bring your GUN  or Guns to School . They must be locked in your car or pickup "

 

" OR secured in THE SCHOOL GUN SAFE ! "


Edited by bezevo, 11 June 2021 - 12:57 PM.


#9 TVCasualty

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 03:26 PM

LETS PLAY COW BOYS AND INDIANS ! Weeeeeeee....!

 

No doubt  i i will  soon be burnt at the stake POLLUTING the air ...  buy the politically correctness mobs arriving in there

Not Green Prius ...Made with lots steel and plastic... made with coal ,petroleum and gigantic earth raping lithium pit mines . 

 

NOT GREEN   !

 

Are you offended .........

 

On a funny note

As a Child   we lived in RANCH Country ,the Native American kids wanted to be the  Cowboys and the little Scandinavia    kids wanted to be the  Indians ...we had Toy Guns ...shudder . We had a blast .

 

NEXT INSTALLMENT we will discuss ... COPS and Robbers  HEH .................this also involved Toy GUNS ! 

oh no !

 

And Last  ...My High School Official  Gun Policy !.....Real Guns !

 

" If you bring your GUN  or Guns to School . They must be locked in your car or pickup "

 

" OR secured in THE SCHOOL GUN SAFE ! "

 

 

 

Ahh the good ol' days, when men were men and boys were, too. :biggrin:

 

 

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Edited by TVCasualty, 11 June 2021 - 03:27 PM.

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#10 makinbones69

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 05:31 PM

I dont think anyone here advocates children smoking cigarettes. But I feel that men shouldn't wear their pants around their ankles in public. Thats the culture I want back. That and the one where its cool to work and feed yourself and your family.

Edited by makinbones69, 11 June 2021 - 05:32 PM.


#11 bezevo

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 06:09 PM

hey were did you get my first grade class photo TV ?

 

I was just  Stirring  the pot a bit  .

 

inn my first post

  But my god why would you were your pants halfway down and look like a ( politically incorrect ) word  RE........RD !  ? ? why ?

i once  saw a guy who admittedly did have a belt but it was right  around his Knees  and three successive pairs of sliding down boxers .

i was Going to POINT and Laugh tell i noticed the HUGE Nickle plated 9mm That he had tucked in the back top pair of boxers ..

But he did look  like the R word and it was really hard not to laugh at him .

 

oh that Really was our actual School Gun Policy .the good old days . if you tried to go on a shooting spree you wouldn't have lasted long.

 

HEH

 

 

BEZ


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#12 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 06:23 PM

Fair enough, I can bail what your swathing TV. Like most things I think really comes down to the individual and how they feel about their respective cultures. Some things are obvious to others but harder for me to see.

 

There is too much nuance there for me to navigate this on a Friday so I will stick to talking about myself.

 

Perhaps my disconnection from my own historical culture might have something to do with it. My dual heritage really does not mean a whole lot to me. People can appropriate the shit out of it for all I care. Make stereotypical jokes about getting drunk and beating your wife. Tap dance in a skirt, wear green hats, and drink away like a proper fool.

 

I mean really, go ahead, paint yourself green, get shit faced and act like and asshole..... Oh wait, what, there's an official day for that. Shit

 

Then again I don't have your average sensibility either, it is difficult to shock or offend me outside of politics. I enjoy aggressive group humor, and can respect that sometimes, somebody has to take a hit for the good of the group. Even if its me

 

I guess I only really think about being a "Canadian" whatever the hell that really means anyway.  I am fine with,  a dude who lives up there. Just don't dare talk shit about poutine or Nanaimo bars or we got a problem mmmmmmkay.

 

Now I am going to go chug some maple syrup and stuff these big triangles down my pants after dinner

 

Hoser out

 

 

Edit: Oh yeah the proliferation of psychedelics to work towards expanding our collective consciousness is something I fully agree with. In a way I have been semi consciously attempting to do that ever since I learned how to cultivate them.  Mostly working with friends and family but we have to start somewhere right.  I got one friend that had the we are all connected euphoric mushroom trip. He said it changed how he felt about death.

 

Sometimes I wish I could quit my job and work exclusively with trying to help people heal with psychedelics.  A nice thought, then that whole legal bullshit thing seems to get in the way


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 11 June 2021 - 06:31 PM.

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#13 makinbones69

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 06:28 PM

Just make sure u wear a belt before u go stuffing triangles down there. The ladies and my kid will appreciate not seeing ur boxers hehe.
Also the human condition is a strange one. I respect cultures. But I also respect a person who respects themselves, others, and life first. The respect of the one validates the respect of the culture.
The people in the video definitely deserve their cultural artifacts. Imperialism is something im most intolerant of. Thats truly what I think. I kind of mixed the two and deviated the original thread. For that apologies.

It is a very difficult thing when your culture is attacked. So ultimately yeah like I said originally give them their shit back and leave mine alone while we're making a case for stolen culture.

Edited by makinbones69, 11 June 2021 - 06:35 PM.

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#14 bezevo

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 07:45 PM

can i get paid for this ..............please !

 

 

I wish I could quit my job and work exclusively with trying to help people heal with psychedelics.


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#15 makinbones69

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 10:30 PM

Id pay u a very bad wage for that service. Not because I wouldn't pay more but because hard times. I respect especially your catch in the reloading post. But u know id be a villain. 762.

Edited by makinbones69, 11 June 2021 - 10:44 PM.


#16 Mycol

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 06:40 AM

Yeah but had guns locked in our trucks for hunting after school . Or for then skert shooting team , we had knives in our pockets too . Fought with our fists still .
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#17 Myc

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 09:34 AM

I guess I grew up with you folks. Using words like Ma'am, Sir, Please, Thank You - spoken verbally while looking someone in the eye........has seemed to have gone by the wayside. Life has taken on this strange feel. I don't understand how folks can sometimes drive the way they do - like piloting a video game automobile with reckless impunity.

Now, that feeling of being insulated from consequences (as demonstrated by the actions of poor drivers) has infected social media of all kinds. Folks communicate to each other in the same manner that they seem to drive on the highway - with reckless disregard for all others.

 

I'll think about how to make gallons of the Eleusian beverage. I just need to know how to vaccinate the entire public - because this is the solution for a huge public health crisis. Everybody needs to line up for the kool-aid and have a drink - with a follow- up booster required every year. .......It could happen.


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#18 TVCasualty

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 12:50 PM

I dont think anyone here advocates children smoking cigarettes. But I feel that men shouldn't wear their pants around their ankles in public. Thats the culture I want back. That and the one where its cool to work and feed yourself and your family.

 

 

One man's feathered headdress is another mans saggy pants.

 

Granted, showing solidarity with prison culture doesn't seem to be anything like wearing a ceremonial headdress, but cultural symbols are ultimately about identity and inclusion and you work with what you've got. Prison and gang culture were arguably imposed on those who are immersed in them against their will, both directly and through all the big-picture social issues like poverty, education, history, cycles of violence, etc..

 

"Society prepares the crime. The criminal commits it." -Henry Thomas Buckle (the guy who also said “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.” I'm sure we can think of exceptions to that simplistic framing but it's pretty clear what he was getting at).

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, I can bail what your swathing TV. Like most things I think really comes down to the individual and how they feel about their respective cultures. Some things are obvious to others but harder for me to see.

 

There is too much nuance there for me to navigate this on a Friday so I will stick to talking about myself.

 

Perhaps my disconnection from my own historical culture might have something to do with it.

 

I suspect that that's a major part of why it happens.

 

I don't really feel like I'm part of any particular culture at all. I was spat out of a hospital in Los Angeles like a car rolls out of a factory; the implicit message in that approach is "welcome to Earth, now get out of here and go deal with it, we need the bed!" Except cars at least come with Owner's Manuals while some of us never even manage to discover all of our standard features.

 

If you were not born into and raised in a coherent and cohesive culture then why wouldn't you pick and choose what to adopt from whatever cultures are around, like it's an all-you-can-appropriate buffet?

 

I can understand why someone might wear an offensively stereotypical costume or whatever; when you have no cohesive culture of your own then all of them look like "costumes" so what's the difference?

 

"American" culture is both vilified and celebrated around the world (used to be celebrated more, but we've really been slacking on PR in recent decades), but IMO it doesn't actually exist as a singular, coherent, and cohesive "thing" that can be meaningfully described as such. The U.S. seems more like a patchwork of many different sub-cultures, some of which get along and some of which don't (understatement of the decade). Conflicts among those that don't get along are ultimately insoluble in most cases and so won't be solved so much as settled by whichever sub-culture has sufficient power to make their version of reality stick.

 

Incidentally, this is also why truth and factual information are superfluous; it's not about whose conception of reality is the most accurate, it's about whose cudgel is heaviest. You know you're calling the shots when you declare that 2+2=5 and everyone enthusiastically agrees (including everyone who knows it doesn't).

 

I'd expect that most of the details of cultures that are unfamiliar to us are hard to see, so one way to increase the getting-along and reduce the conflicts is to look and listen more. That begins with perceiving someone as a human being before perceiving them as a gangster or pig or whatever.

 

When someone from the suburbs who doesn't get out much avoids eye contact, speeds up their walk, and crosses the street to avoid someone who looks "dangerous" when they're in a big scary "urban" area it can spark an aggressive response from the guy perceived as "dangerous" (thereby justifying the fear and avoidance in the mind of the frightened). But the reason why someone gets pissed off and aggressive in that instance is often as not because they understand at some level that they're not being seen as people, but as stereotypes. Yeah, fuck that noise!

 

It fucks with your head if upon seeing you someone pulls their children closer, avoids any eye contact or any acknowledgment of your existence, reroutes their direction of travel to avoid you and ignores any attempt at greeting (a quick nod, saying "hey" as you pass by, anything at all really). The people reflexively reacting in fear to people signifying a different sub-culture don't consider the possibility that the "dangerous" guy thinks that they are the asshole, I'm guessing, and are acting accordingly (so if they say "Fuck you!" to someone who flees from the sight of them they're really saying "Fuck you, too!").

 

 

 

 

I don't understand how folks can sometimes drive the way they do - like piloting a video game automobile with reckless impunity.

 

They can't. Not for long, that is. Everyone who texts and drives on a regular basis will almost certainly crash at some point. Hopefully it will not get anyone killed. For about a decade now I've looked at pulling out of my driveway like entering hostile territory where everyone is actively trying to kill me with their vehicles. It seems to help me avoid a lot of craziness.

 

Crashing while texting or being similarly distracted seems to have become a rite of passage for new drivers in particular.

 

A startling number of my friends' and acquaintances' kids who got their license and a car totaled the first one they drove fairly soon after hitting the road solo. In a couple of cases it was less than a week. One hasn't driven since and she's almost 18 now. The rate is FAR higher than the rate of wrecks among my fellow teenagers when I got my license, but thanks to huge advances in safety tech many are surviving or even walking away unscathed who wouldn't have if they'd totaled the cars we drove when I was in High School.

 

What baffles me the most about a surprising number of teenagers these days is that more and more of them don't seem to want a driver's license at all.

 

That's utterly inconceivable to me, but then I could only escape my house by physically leaving it; the 'Net existed but wasn't a big thing changing how we socialize yet. Now I guess they just go deep into their heads and devices instead. I can't see this being a viable long-term strategy, as in wtf are they going to do when mom and dad are no longer offering chauffeur services? I guess they have to stick to only living in major cities with good public transport, having a big Uber budget, or ride a bicycle (everywhere, all the time). Doable, but also like handicapping oneself for no good reason (fear and social awkwardness are not good reasons IMO).

 

These aren't even kids that live in a city like New York where driving is genuinely optional. When forced to drive eventually they will be truly terrible drivers since it's a skill that benefits from practice and experience (and focus!).

 

 

In the Making Lemonade department, if you want to theft-proof your car these days all you have to do is buy one with a manual transmission. You can park and leave it unlocked and running outside a store and it will still be there when you get back, though it might be a few spaces away and have a burnt-out clutch if someone tried to steal it anyway, lol.


Edited by TVCasualty, 12 June 2021 - 01:00 PM.

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#19 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted Yesterday, 10:30 AM

I had great success playing doctor dose this last weekend.

 

Might be down an ounce or two but I got a garage full of people to dig into the magical bag of fun. I always encourage people to try a really low dose first. Like smoking an ultra powerful joint type stuff, get those nice colour streaks and allow some different thoughts into your brain. Mixed with some weed and alcohol and it was good times had by all. It is hard to deny how good they can make a person feel.

 

It was an awesome night I won't soon be forgetting.

 

The cultural shift is slowly happening. I suspect that the overall growth in Cannabis legislation has opened the flood gates of acceptance. All the nay sayers that told us society was going take a big dip due to legislation were dead wrong. The first cultural mutation appears to be a success. Seems to be fairly common to find an article or news story these days, about the positive benefits of mushrooms and combating mental heath issues.

 

If the mushroom could facilitate such a loving feel good shift on the internet, just like they do in real life well that would be very important thing. Society leaning to drive along the information highway with one another, respectfully and with care would sure go a long way to bring us together. The anonymity given by the internet has a lot to do with it. People do feel free from consequence

 

 

I have been noticing the no drivers licensee trend as well. When it comes to kids not wanting to drive, there is a pacifying of our youth that has been a growing trend for quite some time. Kids stay at home longer and often don't have jobs, the escape is the internet and it can be anywhere you are. No need to go to the mall to find some trouble.

 

Jonathan Haidt has been onto this issue for a while.

 

[Direct Link]


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#20 shiftingshadows

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Posted Yesterday, 06:37 PM

Consider how dystopian the world is, and over populated, & consider what that might do to motivation to 'get ahead'. As we know its only the dummies that think "one can MAGA".


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