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Let's Talk about Cactus Extractions ?


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#1 bezevo

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Posted 26 June 2021 - 07:02 PM

i am defiantly a zero Chemistry experience person and when i read various cactus extractions  they ether seem to crude gross foul teas or nasty tars . but a few aim to produce sparkling clean crystals . These i most often have great difficulty following .

i thought here members could link to teks  that are aimed at  getting clean crystals but simple enough that some of us more SLOW non chemistry people might understand .

liked  the CHEESY  sounding book SWIM'S PSYCHEDELIC COOK BOOK  it was easy to follow and is about extracting various tryptamines   for plants one chapter on Cactus extraction . i read the free kindle version .

there are a good dozen cactus extraction threads on the NEXUS and a few on Mycotopia .

if  you members interested in this could post links to teks you feel are GOOD and fairly easy to follow , discus pros n cons .THAT WOULD BE SUPER  heh

 

ok i'll  put link bellow on a long thread from Nexus on Ethyl acetate approach to cactus extraction .

and bellow that a cleaned up  step by step wiki write up of the Ethyl acetate tek read and comment .

 

https://www.dmt-nexu...g=posts&t=96262

 

https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/CIELO#

 

PLEASE  comment ad links to other tek ect

thanks

BEZ

 



#2 Norman

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Posted 26 June 2021 - 08:10 PM

My first reaction is “too good to be true” and my second is “I’m not gambling 100g of cactus powder to find out”.
So I’ll just do this -
https://mycotopia.ne...ith-pics/page-1
and not look back.
Who knows, it might work great, but I have to think that something that easy would have replaced something a relatively hard as an A/B with a salting and acetone wash by now if it did.
Nice acronym though, it’s almost like he designed his “TEK” around it rather than the other way around.
There I go again being cynical….
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#3 bezevo

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Posted 26 June 2021 - 08:28 PM

Hey Norman thanks for posting link to GREENSKEEPERS Cactus extraction .... https://mycotopia.ne...ith-pics/page-1

 

Norman your skepticism is understandable .........i kinda  felt same way......hummmm....

i  was hoping someone would try it out and post there results/experience .

'

a cpl yrs ago cactus powder and skins were abundant and cheap .

but difficult to source and pricey now so i can understand your reluctance to give it CIELO tek a try .

 

perhaps  some brave pysconaut will give it a try soon ?



#4 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 27 June 2021 - 12:18 AM

I'd guess the easiest, non chemistry set, extraction would be Tregar's previous recommendation of making tea then seriously filtering out all the sediment. I'd guess a 3 or 4 step filtering starting with damp kitchen towel, ending w/wet cotton balls in a funnel? For white crystals, I wonder if you could treat it like rock candy and eventually have the crystals sediment out of the tea with time?

#5 Norman

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Posted 27 June 2021 - 02:18 AM

The tea will dry to a tar that you can scrape up and eat but nothing approaching crystals.
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#6 pharmer

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Posted 27 June 2021 - 08:30 AM

Most of the "teks" are simply recipes. Follow them and you might get crystals.

 

Understanding what's happening at each step of the recipe is important to heading off problems (bad or unexpected chemical reactions). As Norman said you don't want to waste precious cactus if you're having to purchase it at three dollars an inch for common columnars.

 

God/Nature didn't intend it to be easy to get all the way to pure crystals. Knowing how is the price of admission unless you're very lucky, very resourceful, or very friendly

 

I'm not the brightest bulb in the fixture when it comes to chemistry but I'm glad I took the time dig into it enough to be useful here.


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#7 Alpoehi

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Posted 27 June 2021 - 08:54 AM

House's cacti preparation tek from DMT-Nexus Wiki is the most simple Tek I have ever found. It's a resin Tek, however, if done the right way you can expect getting almost pure alkaloids from it.

I cite: "Leave it to sit at room temperature for a couple days. I watched as the fractal powder grew in mass over this time as it separated itself from the other components at the bottom."

I never tried that Tek though. Instead I did it the hard way with an A/B Tek. I still have the crystals today.

Silly me, mere curiosity had been my motivation.
I don't like speedy trips and from tasting a little bit I knew this stuff is damn potent.

I read somewhere the resin Teks have a broader spectrum for experiencing onself, almost like a candy flip.
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#8 el_ronhub_bird

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Posted 27 June 2021 - 09:26 AM

As someone who was just walked through this process by the awesome people here at Mycotopia here's what i have to say about it: if you can follow instructions, it doesn't matter how "slow" you are, you will have success. I followed along with Greenskeepers thread that Norman posted a link for and had a little more help here and there when I had questions about the process. I ended up with a very pure off-white powder that is very easy on the stomach. My advice would be; when you have a question, just simply ask. Listen to what Norman tells you. If Phineas chimes in, listen to what he tells you. That's all I can say really
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#9 Norman

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Posted 27 June 2021 - 03:02 PM

I’m wondering what you guys think of that tek that bez posted. I could be and often am wrong but it seems that if mescaline citrate just fell out of ethyl acetate by dumping citric acid into a solution somebody would have mentioned it before now.
What raises my suspicion is how detailed the chemistry and theory is and how sparse the actual process is. “Drop in citric acid” “if present remove them” “Collect crystals”.
Essentially it’s a dry tek with precip and worth looking into, but I wouldn’t try it just following those procedures step by step.
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#10 bezevo

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Posted 28 June 2021 - 01:48 PM

Norman What i'm getting from your last post   is  that  you think that  tek i posted link to is to abbreviated... as though the author has left out steps he assumes everyone knows ..sort of ?

so if yo follow as written it probably wouldn't work ? Am i getting what you were saying correctly ?

i defiantly am just beginning to understand what is actually occurring in various  AB and STB  teks .. or  a basic understanding of the actual mechanics of the various chemical reactions in each step ..

It seems most just follow the cake recipe approach with little to zero understanding of the mechanics of each chemical reaction ..and hope for good results .

Then they ADD  there own cwn crazy Jesso Pinkman Chilli P steps And post it on Reditt .........ha PLEASE NO  ha

 

i failed Chemistry in high school  due to my lab partners magnificent gravity defying rack  putting my 16 yr old hormone crippled  overwhelmed brain into neutral / DISTRACTED .heh and i was really stoned. it was the 70's heh

So i have been trying to learn/understand the actual chemical reactions that are occurring and understanding them ...

 

i would like to see an actual   knowledgeable chemist  do this tek and add back what's missing  .. in the steps . if it would then work .. or not work .

well if anyone tries to repeat that tek .please  post your findings

i like the write ups were they post the steps with explanations ...what each step dose  first ...........

tek / the basic cake mix  step by step process to follow  . ...ok  

thanks yoshi , pharmer norman ,el-ron  alpoehi  ,greenskeeper for  your posts here and your own on cactus extractions then post

 

BEZ


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#11 Norman

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Posted 28 June 2021 - 09:18 PM

I think you should try it, not throw anything away, and report back here step by step.
All you have to lose is the idea that you can’t do it.
Reading some of that thread, I’m less skeptical- Benzyme seems to endorse it and I trust him. What I was talking about was the way everything theoretical was spelled out and everything nuts and bolts was vague, as though the author hadn’t actually done it.

#12 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 29 June 2021 - 01:02 PM

Very interesting read Bez!

I know very little about these extractions but after reading the experiment multiple times, it gave me lots of questions to think about. What pH does the pickling lime (Ca (OH)2) raise the cacti paste to? Does it still need to be 13? The microwave idea is interesting! You are cooking and evaping water from your paste at the same time. The ethyl acetate, could it be subbed with other known solvents or is there a special need for this solvent in this experiment? When adding the citric acid, does it slowly lower the pH over time or is the pH dropped and the crystallization process just takes time? Would seeding your solution with mescaline crystals cause them to form faster or more elegantly? Could you use HCl instead of citric acid for salting? Perhaps gradual additions of HCl to slowly lower the pH would achieve similar crystallization? The picture on the Nexus where they show the crystals forming, the solution looks like two phases, a red and green, why? Could the same concept be used for DMT extractions?

If someone wants to send me a few hundred grams of dried cacti powder, I'd be happy to try this out! Of course, you can't be sure til you run the experiment a couple times and get similar results! :)

#13 Norman

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Posted 29 June 2021 - 02:57 PM

The pH will be 12 or so, it doesn’t have to be higher because it’s not pulling the molecule out of an aqueous solution and there is no NP solvent involved which could form an emulsion.
We don’t know if other solvents such as acetone or MEK would work nor do we know if other acids would work. It could be a unique combination like FASA or maybe it’s just a dry tek in which any combination of solvent and acid would work to some degree though the citrate salt falling out of solution does make this intriguing.
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#14 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 30 June 2021 - 11:43 PM

I read the entire thread, whew! It was interesting to see the progression of their concept to a working procedure. Apparently it is based on a modified version of 69ron's limonene procedures and Someblackguy's lime/ethylacetate experiment? The citrate salt precipitating out of solution may have been a surprise or lucky find??? I don't know if Lovell initially expected this or if he was expecting the salting to be more like w/HCl? If everything is true (it is on the Internet, it must be!) then this procedure seems incredible! Shroombee was using all food grade products and their yields were impressive! It has me eyeing my poor little cacti. :) The only things I'd do differently from the abbreviated procedure would be to use frozen lime/cacti and frozen ethylacetate for the pulls like they tested. Plus, at the end, wash everything with fresh EA in a turkey baster with cotton balls like Greenskeeper then warm water, collect and allow to evap. They kept mentioning slow water evaporation would form long needles. It was also interesting to see one person use 10 year old, poorly stored, browned cacti powder and get close to 2% yield.

How many feet of fresh columnar cacti would one need for a worthwhile extraction?

Edited by YoshiTrainer, 30 June 2021 - 11:45 PM.


#15 Phineas_Carmichael

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Posted 01 July 2021 - 12:49 AM

I haven't read the thread, my preferred browsing device doesn't like the Nexus's formatting, but I'll dust off the old laptop & check it out eventually... Anybody feel like giving my lazy ass a quick summary?

Keep in mind that the citrate salt is almost 2x heavier per molecule than the hydrochloride. A 2% yield of the citrate salt mathematically converts to an approximately 1.2% yield of the hydrochloride. Dosages of the citrate will need to be adjusted; mathematically one needs to dose almost twice as much (divide the HCl dose by 0.6) by weight to get the same number of mescaline molecules. That's how the math works anyway, I personally have no experience with dosing mescaline citrate.

As far as how much fresh cactus for an extraction, I'll let the botanists chime in on that one. My initial guess would be to use however much one would use to make a single dose tea, check the yield, and eat the results if the numbers seem good. If you trip as good as you would have from the tea, then you probably got all the goodies.

Edited by Phineas_Carmichael, 01 July 2021 - 06:22 AM.

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#16 bezevo

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Posted 01 July 2021 - 11:01 AM

Most of the extractions that a have read that didn't seem to have a bunch of bull shit Jessi Pinkman chili P extra steps ...produced the hydrochloride version .so i thought the citrate one was interesting .

BEZ

Edited by bezevo, 01 July 2021 - 11:06 AM.


#17 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 01 July 2021 - 12:53 PM

Phineas, essentially:
-Mix pickling lime + water
-Mix in powdered cacti for 10 min (should be sandy texture)
-Microwave 2/3 of the water weight away (optional, still sandy texture)
-Cover w/ethylacetate, gentle stir 30s, settle 120s, decant through coffee filter.
-Repeat 4-5 more times
-"Bomb" the filtered solution w/5-20g citric acid on stir plate or let sit 24hr.
- The solution should cloud and the Mesc citrate should fall from solution or stick to the jar walls.

One individual in the thread declared, in his opinion, that citrate was better feeling than HCl or sulfate.


.....maybe we should send a search party for Freddy so he can run some more side by side experiments? :)
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#18 Norman

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Posted 01 July 2021 - 01:58 PM

Well there you go - you guys know as much as we do about this procedure and a cactus A/B has been spelled out multiple times in exhaustive detail on this forum so why don’t you go to the considerable work and risk and expense of doing a side by side and maybe learn something and teach us all something in the process?
Sorry, but damn, that’s how it’s done folks.
Not by talking about it on the internet.
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#19 YoshiTrainer

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Posted 01 July 2021 - 06:12 PM

I think at least for me, talking about it helps solidify the procedure in my mind. Thankfully, some of you have a much deeper understanding of chemistry beyond just following a recipe on the Internet and are willing to share your knowledge! (Thank you!) It seems like the experiment is already based upon two proven "teks" so the only question would be the precipitation of the target molecule? If I could Norman, I'd test it out today! Unfortunately, so far I have: enthusiasm, basic skill set, pickling lime and citric acid. Pretty sure I have a FOF w/a nice sized San Pedro? Might need to take some beers and tequila along to see if I can get some cuttings? :)

#20 bmmjb

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Posted 03 July 2021 - 03:07 PM

I did try this CIELO tek.  I have also tried, with varying degrees of success, most published teks.

 

My interest is primarily horticultural, but these are nice excursions.

 

Loveall has been experimenting specifically with cactus material for quite some time now.  Many combinations of solvents and approaches are documented.  I thank him for both his efforts, and his documentation of them

 

I had an unusual result.  The upon adding the citric acid, the ethyl acetate did cloud noticeably.  I didn't notice any precipitating crystals - to me, that is the a result I have always really wanted.

 

Anyway, after waiting, I didn't notice any precipitate, so I filtered the ethyl acetate into another jar.  I did remember not to throw anything away, and also the comment about tiny crystals sticking to the side, so I rinsed the original jar with warm water to dissolve everything, filtered it through the same filter paper, and put it in a flat plat to evaporate.

 

When it evaporated, I didn't get crystals - I did get kind of a clear tacky residue.  Disappointed, I figured it didn't work, but I scraped the residue and ate it.  Much to my surprise, I went for a full blown ride.

 

My point is that, for me at least, it's a viable approach.  I'm not sure why I didn't get filterable crystals, but I did get an extremely active end product with very little effort.  Just speculating here - Bridgesii may contain other actives that interfere with crystallization.  Also, the dried product was despined skins that included a portion of the white inner flesh.  The starting material was mature (40 yr old) bridgesii that had been stored in the dark for a few months.

 

I will try it again, this time with either pachanoi or peruvanius.

 

Hope this helps.


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