53 replies to this topic

[August West]

https://www.theblaze...in-recent-weeks

 

 

As many as 45 Catholic churches in Canada have been burned or vandalized in a wave of anti-Christian violence sparked by the discovery of unmarked graves near former schools for Indigenous children.

 

The True North Centre for Public Policy, a nonprofit right-wing organization, has published a map on its website tracking reported incidents of church burnings and acts of vandalism committed on Catholic church property in recent weeks. According to the group, at least 17 churches have been targeted by arsonists. Dozens more have been defaced with red paint or vandalized in other manners.

 

These anti-Christian attacks have followed the discovery of hundreds of unmarked graves near residential schools where the Canadian government sent indigenous children as part of a forced assimilation program. Beginning in the late 19th century and lasting for 120 years, about 150,000 Indigenous children were forced to attend the schools, most of which were operated by the Catholic Church, where they were taught to reject their cultural heritage and assimilate into Canadian culture. Many of the schools were underfunded, did not provide adequate nourishment, health care, or clothing, and were overcrowded and susceptible to outbreaks of disease.

 

A 2015 report from Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, a commission established to investigate and report on the history of the country's forced assimilation program and its lasting impacts, identified 3,200 confirmed deaths of students at the schools.

 

"The failure to establish and enforce adequate standards, coupled with the failure to adequately fund the schools, resulted in unnecessarily high death rates at residential schools," the report stated.

 

There is no known cause of death for approximately half the deaths identified by the commission. Among deaths attributed to illness, tuberculosis was the most common cause of death, followed by influenza and pneumonia.

To cut costs, most of the bodies of children who died at these schools were not returned to their parents. Part of the commission's work was to identify and commemorate the unmarked gravesites where these children were buried.

 

In June, an estimated 215 unmarked graves were found in Kamloops, British Columbia, near the Kamloops Indian Residential School. The discovery was made by the Tk'emlups te Secwepemc First Nation, using ground-penetrating radar that identifies changes in soil below the surface where graves may have been dug. In the following weeks, an estimated 600 more unmarked graves were found at the former Marieval Residential School in Saskatchewan and another 182 graves were found at the site of a former residential school on Ktunaxa Nation territory in British Columbia.

 

It is not clear if all of the discovered graves belong to children. According Jon Z. Lerat, a band councillor with the Cowessess First Nation, the area where graves were found in Saskatchewan was also used as a burial site by the rural municipality located there.

 

Cowessess First Nation Chief Cadmus Delorme emphasized to reporters that the discovery was "not a mass grave site," just "unmarked graves."

 

Still, the discovery of these grave sites prompted a wave of violence against Christian churches in Canada. In just one night on June 30, 10 different churches were vandalized in the city of Calgary.

 

"Orange and red paint was placed on the exterior of the churches and one had a window smashed so paint could also be thrown inside," the City of Calgary said in a news release.

 

"Handprints, the number '215' and other markings suggest the vandalism was in response to the graves recently found at former residential schools."

 

Two weeks ago, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau condemned the violence against churches, calling it "unacceptable and wrong."

 

"I can't help but think that burning down churches is actually depriving people who are in need of grieving and healing and mourning (of) places where they can actually grieve and reflect and look for support," Trudeau said.

"We shouldn't be lashing out at buildings that can provide solace to some of our fellow citizens," he said. "But we should be, every day, committing ourselves, each and every one of us, to the hard work that we need to do to actually rebuild a path forward that reflects the terrible intergenerational trauma and present day realities of suffering that we are all collectively responsible for.

 

"The anger ... is real," Trudeau continued. "People have gone decades and even generations living with intergenerational trauma, with outcomes and institutional racism that has created extreme difficulties for Indigenous peoples across this country that are also the legacy of residential schools."

Edited by August West, 15 July 2021 - 12:37 AM.

[Moonless]

What a hot topic.

 

These Church must make reparations for the sins of their past.

[Myc]

The same thing happened with the (remainder of the) indigenous population of North America. Same things, same way, same methods - same outcome.

 

But when reperations are being talked about in American political circles - it is another ethnic group who is the focus of receiving those reparations. Because - those lives matter - and the rest of us don't rank.

If money is being passed-out and I don't get my share.......I'll be angry.

 

Edit: But if someone wants to divide and redistribute the enormous wealth of the Vatican (because they have basically fucked-over many populations of the entire globe) - then I'm all for it. But it's hard to sell burnt stuff so we should leave it intact for better resale value.

 

I say we just do what was suggested by Trudeau and just try to become better countrymen to one another. Leave the transgressions in the past - where they belong. Today is right here in front of us and we can use all of that energy to actually improve things rather than to deface or tear them down.

Edited by Myc, 15 July 2021 - 02:24 PM.

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

I wish the Catholic church would at least apologize for their role in it. While it wont undue the damage done owning up to it does mean something. This burning of churches is not the way to do things. I am no fan of religion but I respect peoples right of freedom to it.

 

Burning down a church that has members that had nothing to do with those residential schools what does that do? All that does is deprive others of what they might hold dear to their hearts and creates more pain.

[Mycol]

The church is a symbol as is the act of burning it .

[August West]

The church is a symbol as is the act of burning it .

Aside from property crime, it could be a lot more than just a symbol if the arsonist(s) aren't doing their due diligence to insure the church is empty of bodies.

 

This story was interesting to me for multiple reasons. I had heard nothing about it until yesterday. I don't pour over "the news" like I used to so it's a little understandable. However, my first thought was, there is no way I wouldn't have heard about 45 mosques or synagogues being burnt to the ground.

 

I also find it interesting, though not surprising, that no state "symbols" have been burnt to the ground. This was a program directed by the state. As far as my understanding, in the time frame that it occurred, the Catholic church didn't hold the power to forcibly remove children from their homes - only the state had that power. It's likely that whatever financial incentives there were for the Church, were also provided by the state, ie taxpayers. Yet somehow, the entire onus is on the Church.

 

I found Trudeau's comments about collective guilt to be apropos to all of that. Of course it was all of us. It wasn't just people calling themselves the government of Canada and members of the Catholic church. It was all of us. Even the unborn.

[Moonless]

This story was interesting to me for multiple reasons. I had heard nothing about it until yesterday. I don't pour over "the news" like I used to so it's a little understandable. However, my first thought was, there is no way I wouldn't have heard about 45 mosques or synagogues being burnt to the ground.

Really?

 

 

The same thing happened with the (remainder of the) indigenous population of North America. Same things, same way, same methods - same outcome.

 

But when reperations are being talked about in American political circles - it is another ethnic group who is the focus of receiving those reparations. Because - those lives matter - and the rest of us don't rank.

If money is being passed-out and I don't get my share.......I'll be angry.

While in college we talked about these ideas about once a year. I had heard of the usual privileged white overcompensation for being white but this was quickly shot down in any serious discussion on the topic. I think people are starting to come around to your point of view now. Because when I left college that general sentiment that you detest was not so prevalent. Now a days I see more and more news and social media about reparations from people who unjustly inherited their wealth on the backs of slaves (for instance) to people who are inheritors of generational trauma from the slave trade. I understand that it is very difficult to form an opinion on this, when I watch right leaning news and social media people say that reparations are going to be from white people to black people regardless participation in the slave trade. But when you check in on the actual recommended reparation ideas its not like that at all. I think that the right wing media tells lies about the left and vice versa so its pretty difficult to have sense making in our society.

[August West]

 

This story was interesting to me for multiple reasons. I had heard nothing about it until yesterday. I don't pour over "the news" like I used to so it's a little understandable. However, my first thought was, there is no way I wouldn't have heard about 45 mosques or synagogues being burnt to the ground.

Really?

 

Which part?

 

 

But when you check in on the actual recommended reparation ideas its not like that at all.

 

Would you happen to have a link for this? I wouldn't mind reading a compelling proposal.

 

[ElPirana]

The church is a symbol as is the act of burning it .

I also find it interesting, though not surprising, that no state "symbols" have been burnt to the ground. This was a program directed by the state. As far as my understanding, in the time frame that it occurred, the Catholic church didn't hold the power to forcibly remove children from their homes - only the state had that power. It's likely that whatever financial incentives there were for the Church, were also provided by the state, ie taxpayers. Yet somehow, the entire onus is on the Church.

To me it seems a lot of people hold the church to a higher moral standard than the state, whether justified or not. If that’s the case, it would be understandable why anger is directed at the church, to the people it feels like a bigger betrayal.

[TVCasualty]

I bet the majority of the fires and vandalism are being committed by disaffected teenagers who see the recent news as a justification to let loose with some adolescent self-empowerment exercises.

 

The revelations were probably the tipping point in a "perfect storm" kind of situation for juvenile hellraisers.

 

The history of cultural genocide on this continent that's already well-known is justifiably enraging. The future that most if not all kids today have to look forward to is pretty bleak, on multiple levels. Many of the churches being vandalized and torched are located out in relatively remote, rural areas where boredom for anyone under 40 (much less teenagers) can be overwhelming (and the 'Net constantly reminds them that they're stuck living very far away from where all the fun is happening). That all seems like an ideal recipe for teen vandalism and fucking shit up.

 

But then add an apparent case of unspeakable crimes committed against their own parents and grandparents (etc.) on top of all the rest and now anything they do probably feels justified to them as a form of legitimate retaliation, and they might even have some very pissed off grown-ups come along to help.

 

The recent atrocities being revealed are just one more example of why organized religion is a scourge upon humanity. That said, the churches are still useful as structures and building materials are getting expensive so instead of destroying them I would advocate taking them over and using them for something practical and useful (i.e., anything except a church), or dismantling them and recycling the materials for other projects.

 

As to why the Church is catching all the hell for this rather than the state it's probably because the state (in both Canada and the U.S.) has long been recognized as a primary source of atrocities against native populations while the church had until recently largely managed to avoid a lot of richly-deserved criticism for its equally-significant role in countless crimes against humanity.

 

But when it all comes down to it the Church, the state, and the Hudson Bay Company (among other companies) were all really just different heads of the same monster. But it's nice to see the Church's cultural hegemony finally diminishing; I guess the indoctrination didn't always take and so they are not seen as sacred spaces. I'd grant that a site where hundreds of children are buried after they'd been kidnapped, physically and/or psychologically tortured, and either killed or allowed to die is a sacred site. But it's not a sacred site because it's a fucking church.

 

Getting rid of buildings and idols is easy. Burning the Church out of their heads will be the real trick. It's especially difficult to get things out of our heads (exorcise our inner demons, if you will) that were stuffed in there when we were children, which is of course why religious cults are so focused on "education" and "schools" (in unnecessary quotes because as practiced they are ...something else).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To me it seems a lot of people hold the church to a higher moral standard than the state, whether justified or not.

 

I think that that's finally changing. It's hard to ignore the relentless flow of scandals from the ostentatiously-pious. The 'net makes it harder to hide certain things, like who is banging whom (but it makes it easier to hide other things, like factual reality). The only reason why someone would believe that a religious institution would, should, or does have a higher moral standard than a government (and the Catholic Church is both, lest we forget) is that they've never really studied religious history.

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

The church is a symbol as is the act of burning it .

Sure but that does not make it right. Trying to repair abuse with violence is not the way to go. In the end it will probably create more hate than it seeks to relieve. Most rational folk were coming to see those schools for what they really were, this gives them an excuse to say well fuck those people, look what they are doing now. Nobody knows who the arsonist are but you can bet who is going to be blamed in the court of public opinion. (NOT WHITE PEOPLE) Even though chances are they did plenty of the burning

There tends to be a bit of slanted reporting on religion and hate crimes in general. Islam is the irony in the march for political correctness. The strict parts of that religion go against so many progressive values its unreal, yet they are touted as some untouchable religion and any discussion is terminated by the sentence, you can't blame all blah blah blah. I guess when it comes to the Catholic church however you can blame all of them and even burn their places of worship to the ground for past transgressions.

 

I think that the right wing media tells lies about the left and vice versa so its pretty difficult to have sense making in our society.

Even worse we let the left tell us what the right is up to and vice versa. Why would we want to get it straight from the horses mouth when we can dance around in conjecture all day long

 

 

Getting rid of buildings and idols is easy

 

Perhaps temporarily, but one must ask the question of what comes after. You can wipe the slate clean but must be weary of what will replace it. Something will always replace it. I am all but certain you could magically wipe everyone's memory of all religion throughout time.. And within a short amount of time we would be donning those hats again and singing those songs gathered around a commune.

 

Don't seek to dispose the dictator unless you have someone to replace him with, what can come after can always be far far worse

Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 16 July 2021 - 01:49 PM.

[Juthro]

I think it's worth noting that Mycol simply stated that the churches, and the act of burning them are symbolic.  A statement that I agree with, though neither one of us said we support this kind of action.

 

As far as why the church is taking the brunt of the anger here....  Maybe that's because they were the tool that physically committed most of the abuses, and is undoubtedly the party physically responsible for those mass graves.  

[August West]

 

As far as why the church is taking the brunt of the anger here....  Maybe that's because they were the tool that physically committed most of the abuses, and is undoubtedly the party physically responsible for those mass graves.  

 

I'm not even sure that parsing it has any benefit but it does remain somewhat interesting to me. Without a state program and the use of their monopoly on sanctioned violence to forcibly separate families while likely (I'm not totally versed on the history of how this program worked) offering the financial incentives (paltry as they may have been) for the church to participate, the whole thing may not have happened. At least not in the way it played out as it's now understood. It's pretty unclear, at best, why one of those parties should get one kind of retribution and the other gets virtually none at all? Unclear, but completely unsurprising. There's a lot more people schooled by the state than by the church.

[Juthro]

 

 

As far as why the church is taking the brunt of the anger here....  Maybe that's because they were the tool that physically committed most of the abuses, and is undoubtedly the party physically responsible for those mass graves.  

 

 There's a lot more people schooled by the state than by the church.

 

 

But how many of those people ended up in unmarked mass graves.

[August West]

I'm not sure if that's a detail that matters. I suppose it's debatable but I don't exactly see the change in relevance. 

Edited by August West, 16 July 2021 - 03:14 PM.

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

I think we should be careful around the mass grave language we see in the media though it may be a bit of an oversimplification, or even outright disingenuous. I feel it invokes nazi style imagery, the bulldozing of dead bodies into one big hole and pushing dirt on top. Sounds like many of these were graveyards with many single unmarked graves and believe it or not some kids died from natural causes like the rest of the children across the country throughout the century. Some ugly decisions were made like burying the children there rather than spending the money to return them to their families. Some people spoke of forest fires wiping out the little wooden crosses and no effort was made to replace them. In some instances this may just be old forgotten graveyards. How to say this without trying to diminish the pain that was very real and plenty of people felt is tricky, but I think the language around it is important.

 

The church does seem to be taking most of the blame and perhaps the truth and reconciliation committee formed by them government allows them some form of protection from the anger. One is a powerful institution that can lock you up in prison for revolting against it while the other a fading public power center. The goverment dodges the blame even though the reparations were a few decades too late and the indigenous still had to fight for even after it became offical. But my guess is the reluctance from the church to really acknowledge involvement in the entire affair flares up most of the anger.

Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 16 July 2021 - 04:21 PM.

[TVCasualty]

It's pretty unclear, at best, why one of those parties should get one kind of retribution and the other gets virtually none at all? Unclear, but completely unsurprising. There's a lot more people schooled by the state than by the church.

 

If I'm on the right track with my "mostly nihilistic teenagers" hypothesis then that alone would be enough to explain it. Churches in the boonies that don't have security cameras and are likely only occupied one day a week are pretty soft targets. Just about any government facility (which probably has security cameras, etc.) would be more difficult/riskier to mess with. The state also tends to use lethal force against attempts to destroy its infrastructure.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there was also a social media component in play, so it could be the case that burning and vandalizing churches is a trend that's going viral among those receptive to such ideas thanks to a coincidental confluence of several factors pushed over a tipping point by the recent extra-fucked up revelations of all the dead children the state kidnapped for the church to indoctrinate ("a firebug flapped its wings" in Chaos parlance, I guess).

 

The only reason it's not seen as just as tragic that all the white (etc.) kids were similarly "schooled" is because their parents were, too so it was seen as normal. But I've looked at the before/after photos of the kids taken from their tribes and while noting how sad and disheartened and uncomfortable they looked at the schools with their short hair and proper suits that never looked right no matter how well-tailored they happened to be I realized that I felt the same way about all children subjected to that shit, myself included. But my indoctrination was much less forceful since my ancestral culture was tortured and "schooled" and proselytized out of my people a thousand years ago and we're mostly well-behaved Democratic Socialists now. 

Edited by TVCasualty, 16 July 2021 - 04:59 PM.

[Juthro]

I think we should be careful around the mass grave language we see in the media though it may be a bit of an oversimplification

 

I think the language fits just fine.  A large consolidation of bodies buried without record, and left in an unmaintained, and unmarked fashion qualifies as a mass grave to me.  Just because you find the language unflattering does not mean it is inaccurate, very similar to your dislike of the words 'conspiracy theory'.

 

Whether or not it was a potters field (the likely case, as it is highly unlikely all the youths died at the same time), or a single pit does not really change anything, IMO.

 

 

I'm not sure if that's a detail that matters. I suppose it's debatable but I don't exactly see the change in relevance.

 

To think that the powers that were physically in charge of these youths when they died, and that were also responsible for the disposal of their remains is not relevant in this case seems pretty ridiculous to me.

[August West]

 

It's pretty unclear, at best, why one of those parties should get one kind of retribution and the other gets virtually none at all? Unclear, but completely unsurprising. There's a lot more people schooled by the state than by the church.

 

If I'm on the right track with my "mostly nihilistic teenagers" hypothesis then that alone would be enough to explain it. Churches in the boonies that don't have security cameras and are likely only occupied one day a week are pretty soft targets. Just about any government facility (which probably has security cameras, etc.) would be more difficult/riskier to mess with. The state also tends to use lethal force against attempts to destroy its infrastructure.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there was also a social media component in play, so it could be the case that burning and vandalizing churches is a trend that's going viral among those receptive to such ideas thanks to a coincidental confluence of several factors pushed over a tipping point by the recent extra-fucked up revelations of all the dead children the state kidnapped for the church to indoctrinate ("a firebug flapped its wings" in Chaos parlance, I guess).

 

The only reason it's not seen as just as tragic that all the white (etc.) kids were similarly "schooled" is because their parents were, too so it was seen as normal. But I've looked at the before/after photos of the kids taken from their tribes and while noting how sad and disheartened and uncomfortable they looked at the schools with their short hair and proper suits that never looked right no matter how well-tailored they happened to be I realized that I felt the same way about all children subjected to that shit, myself included. But my indoctrination was much less forceful since my ancestral culture was tortured and "schooled" and proselytized out of my people a thousand years ago and we're mostly well-behaved Democratic Socialists now. 

 

 

Yep. It's mostly a "rhetorical thought" exercise on my end...

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure if that's a detail that matters. I suppose it's debatable but I don't exactly see the change in relevance.

 

To think that the powers that were physically in charge of these youths when they died, and that were also responsible for the disposal of their remains is not relevant in this case seems pretty ridiculous to me.

 

 

Yea, still not persuaded that the church should be the sole bearer of indignation when the state's hand instigated the program and was every bit as heavy. I'm assuming this was all done via some sort of "legal" means. By the time decisions are being made about the bodies, the damage has been done.

 

I guess we'll agree to disagree on whether to consider this myopically or more broadly. I'm comfortable with my assessment of why the narrative is what it is.

Edited by August West, 16 July 2021 - 05:14 PM.

[Juthro]

I think it's worth pointing out that I never said that I think the church should be held solely responsible, but the fact that there are others who are also guilty of crimes against their fellow man does not in any way lessen the culpability of the church for their actions, or lack there of.