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#1 liferider

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Posted 18 July 2021 - 11:17 AM

i was wondering about the food needed by cubes as well as other mushrooms during each stage of their lifetime. why can i get away with using only coir in a shoe box, but in a jar i have to use grain? is the grain just faster, but more prone to contamination? and can i just bury agar pucks straight in a shoe box if i am not in a rush?

there seems to be so many options for food, each with their pros and cons, but i can't find much information on the exact needs at each stage and why we use the foods we do at each stage.

 

any insight or links to info would be great.

 

thank you



#2 Moonless

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Posted 18 July 2021 - 12:52 PM

"Why can i get away with using only coir in a shoe box, but in a jar i have to use grain?"

 

In the beginning the rice supplies the energy. Later hydrated coir supplies the needed water to fruit. Without the energy from the rice, the mycelium would not be able to spread over such a large area.

 

"Is the grain just faster, but more prone to contamination?"

 

I don't know about faster but grain is more prone to contamination. It's full of nutrition and if a contamination occurs when spawned to coir then it is most likely the contaminant was in the grain. As a rule of thumb grain must be sterilized while substrates only need to be pasteurized. This is because mushrooms need no competition when growing on grain so they can take over the whole mass. Once they have all the energy then growing on a pasteurized medium like coir or CVG is possible

 

"Can i just bury agar pucks straight in a shoe box if i am not in a rush?"

 

A shoe box of what? Like I said if this is a shoebox of coir then no you can't. If you somehow have a shoebox of grain and that grain is clean then yes you can just bury agar pucks into a shoebox. I highly advise against all in one grow bags they just never worked for me and don't save that much time or effort.


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#3 bezevo

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Posted 18 July 2021 - 12:53 PM

ummm    I'm perty certain you cant just put spores on coir  and grow very good mushrooms .

Please internet  exsperts correct me if I'm Wrong !

 

Explanation as simple as possable

How most use coir is  ...The fully colonize a jar of grain THE SPAWN and mix it 2 to 1  coir x spawn or 50/50/

The coir/Substrate  is usually pasteurized ..

So the Pasteurized coir is the Substrate ....The colonized grain is the Spawn

The mushrooms use the grain as food mostly

 

This mix is put in various size tubs /bags ect .

 

Have you considered  trying PF tek BRF cakes ...before you move on to Spawn in coir tubs ect 

PF tek BRF (BROWN RICE FLOWER cakes ) was designed for beginners .it's very simple

once you have success with this you can move on to more advance tubs with substrate n spawn .

 

Below is Sidestreets  thread on latest PF tek in the first post is a link to a FREE PDF BOOK 

if you follow it to a "T" NO deviation or experiments you should have success

 remembered we often learn the most from our failures  so keep trying

 

https://mycotopia.ne...for-the-masses/

 

Edit  moonless beat me to it heh

 

BEZ


Edited by bezevo, 18 July 2021 - 01:03 PM.

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#4 DarkNchildlike

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 08:32 AM

Where I'm growing currently there js weed being grown and therefore a super high amount of trich. I guess they intentionally put it in the soil for some reason not sure why. But anyway its really annoying all my jars become contaminated so what ive been doing is getting agar do e elsewhere then I bring my agar over after colonized and add them to pasteurized manure or pasteurized coir or a mix of such. Inside gallon sized ziploc bags and when colonized a break it down and double or triple it. 1:1 or 1:2.

This is not the correct way to grow really and I'll be finding a different way to go about this.

The pasteurized manure doesnt develop trich very easily and i get like 3 flushes.

When I do this with coir for some reason i cant spread it as far it wants to grow the fruiting body right away.. In guessing because there isnt much nutrients at all in coir and it signals them its time to fruit.

I dont recommend anyone grow this way its just a work around for a problem im having.

Its basically tge same as making grain spawn and spreading it. It has problems tho.. If the agar plate is sort of weak in any way at all it just wont grow. Usually it does but ive had some duds.
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#5 DarkNchildlike

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 08:35 AM

When i say that about doing it with just coir what I mean js I put the agar in and it will grow and become consolidated but if I try to break it down to use as spawn it will not turn out well like it already used all its energy and is weak.

If i do this with manure i can break the manure down and spread it a few times it stay vegetative until i intentionaly consolidate and induce pinning. Not so eith the coir.
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#6 MushLuvR

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 10:58 AM

Going AGAR to bulk is rough and not recommended.  The grains that we(most of us) use provide nutrition(BRF is the nutrition in Cakes... I use Rice Bran for Edible Blocks) and MANY inoculation points to spread the mycelium fast when adding to Coir or H Manure(or a combination of both).  Agar to Grain is the way, get a clean(culture) jar and turn one into 7-10(depending on how fast you want them to colonize).  You answered your own text my friend, inert Coir versus Manure that does have some nutrition, if composted, will have micronutrients as well as Calcium, Magnesium, etc  Oats are one of the easiest grains to prep, no soaking, no BS, easy to measure exact amounts. 


Edited by MushLuvR, 19 July 2021 - 11:02 AM.

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#7 DarkNchildlike

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 11:51 AM

Lol yeah I know im not really asking a question. I said its not recomended but the cool thing about this hobby is there are a ton of ways to do it and succeed. I'm just giving a report of things related to the questions asked and thought it was funny im dealing with a situation reminiscent of his question.

Ive been growing like six years and very much am aware that this isnt optimal.

Its nice and good that you are spreading good information. Its ok for people to share different viewpoints and projects/ experiments in order for there to be progress in this field. I'm not accusing you of saying there is only one way to do something.

The only reason like i said that im doing it the way i am is because ive got like between 6 and ten totes going at most times and I can lug around that much spawn from home to place where i am growing all of the time. Easier for me personally ATM until i move my projects to a different place to just make a ton of agar, start spawn into manure, get it fully colonized then u break down that manure into tons of innoculation points. ( it crumbles into pieces the size of grain) this way I dont have a million failed jars because thats what i was getting and literally couldnt get a successful grow for the furst two or three months I moved stuff to this new place.

The only thing you absolutely shouldnt do is open up contaminated grain spawn right in your face and get sick.

Besides that by all means experiment and try whacky stuff OP.

Just know youre not gonna get great results or any doing things other than the tried and true methods.

Ive been growing a long time and knew i could pull this off this way is the only reason im doing it.

I still get mushrooms the size of my arm and decent pinsets usually. So I'm ok. :)

Mushlvr. Youre doing good answering questions but trust me there's alot of ways to skin a cat. Ive done alot of growing personally and can tell youve done a fair bit but are still learning juuuuust like we all are. :)

Do some experimenting my friend amd dont always trust everything you read just because some guy you respect said it in a book about mushrooms you know.

Alot of things that you thi k you know this this and this will sound good but in reality a bunch of the stuff thats said in the mushroom scene is just hype thats parroted over and pver until everyone believes its tge truth.
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#8 DarkNchildlike

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 11:53 AM

You're all good and im not talking smack at all. I respect youre answering questions to the best of your ability and you sound quite educated on everything.
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#9 DarkNchildlike

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 11:58 AM

He literally asked if that was possible and i believe im the only person that actually told him that it is.. Then also told him its really not recomended and counter intuitive and without alot of experience it would just be complete folly.

The manure i use is sun leached for about six years and has amazing microbial balance. Also I would wager its got more than enough nutrients just as grain.
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#10 DarkNchildlike

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 12:00 PM

Actually it has less nutrients but is broken down more so it has more available nutrients I believe but doesnt contaminate due to microbial and less nutrients. There is a reason it grows naturally on it.

Youre totally good tho and right just answering the question. Sorry for numerous posts.. Bad habit.

#11 Moonless

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 05:13 PM

Where I'm growing currently there js weed being grown and therefore a super high amount of trich. I guess they intentionally put it in the soil for some reason not sure why. But anyway its really annoying all my jars become contaminated so what ive been doing is getting agar do e elsewhere then I bring my agar over after colonized and add them to pasteurized manure or pasteurized coir or a mix of such. Inside gallon sized ziploc bags and when colonized a break it down and double or triple it. 1:1 or 1:2.

Wait you don't use grain? Just agar to manure?



#12 DarkNchildlike

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 10:15 PM

Just for now i do. To much trich in the area the dang jars 100% die.

#13 DarkNchildlike

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 10:16 PM

I lost jars for two or three months before trying this and to my surprise its working. Got a ton of totes going right now.

Edit:

Ofcourse I learned to grow using grain jars. Ive done it that way forever. Just in the last month I found this work around.

You can take manure thats colonized crumble it up and spread it many many many times just like with grain spawn.

Is it so surprising? The mushrooms outside dont need grain spawn. Ofcourse im germinating it in sterile SAB and agar. But you can grow mycelium on alot of things..

Not that you should.

I probably do have a bit of diminished returns but nothing SO bad that ive noticed.

Edited by DarkNchildlike, 19 July 2021 - 10:39 PM.

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#14 MushLuvR

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Posted 20 July 2021 - 01:05 PM

All good Dark, I'm not a One way person at all actually, I've been experimenting for well over a Decade friend and have done some shit too purely for the reason of doing it... or just because I CAN(I've dumped many cubes over the years from having too many.. or room for new fruits).  The real question is... WHY are you losing jars, I think you are alleviating from the real problem(strictly from an analytical POV), but hey, Cubes are forgiving... as you have found out with Agar(work around... definitely not cheap or efficient and more work making Agar all the time) and Manure.  I appreciate your Vote of confidence that I am doing "Good" or whatever, but I grow more than just Cubes, and frankly... the process is WAY more involved than growing Cubes every will be(No disrespect Cubes... I luv ya). Never judge someone by there post count(I grow all types of stuff, veggies, cactus, etc), I have a well rounded amount of experience and have been HIGHLY successful(Minimal loss over the years) in my methods(without a LFH)  No judgment from me though bud, that's Just not my Style so... Grow on Brother.   :hookah:

 

MushL 


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#15 newmoon

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Posted 20 July 2021 - 06:52 PM

DNC, if you've been successful growing from agar directly to pasteurized substrate would you be willing to do a writeup with pictures? I'd be very curious to see a detailed guide to the method, haven't seen this work before.


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#16 coorsmikey

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Posted 20 July 2021 - 07:18 PM

Just toss a colonized agar puck into a tub of pasteurized (proper field capacity) manure and let is sit for a month or two. No need for a write up as its not known for consistent repeatable results with good yields. One time I thought I could re-invent the wheel and came up with the grand idea of skipping spawn altogether. I took a syringe of LC and squirted on a pasteurized field capacity tub of straw. It worked and even kicked ass. It was so easy in fact I spent two days cooking up enough straw for 48 tubs. If you think that sounds like a lot of work, try imagining what you would do with 47 tubs that failed. No big deal I got a a couple of ounces dried from one tub. You still interested in a write up with Pics? I would be more geared to what not to do.


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#17 newmoon

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Posted 20 July 2021 - 07:21 PM

Yeah, mostly wanted to see pictures of this working repeatedly - I've played around with this in the past too and didn't have good results.



#18 coorsmikey

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Posted 20 July 2021 - 07:33 PM

I might be able to dig up the pics of the 47 tubs that failed. There is a story around here somewhere around here that explains how to dispose of 47 (50 qt) tubs without raising eyebrows lol.


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#19 liferider

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Posted 22 July 2021 - 03:06 AM

thanks for the help everybody :wub:

sorry, i was not clear about the shoe box being a shoe box of coir, but yes moonless, you correctly guessed i meant coir. i should have just said "coir", the "shoe box" is irrelevant :biggrin:

 

just to be clear i have ran a few grows already (with some success and some failures) and was more asking out of curiosity and for future reference when it comes time to play around with my method and refine it to my needs. so far i have tried BRF jars and rye grain>coir (and agar stuff to prep cultures). i will be trying oats in place of rye soon too (thank you for the suggestion mushluvr).

 

i understand much better now, thank you all for the information. i will continue to start my grows on grain for now.

thanks :wub:


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