Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Rye Experimentation Working! Lot's of side pinning though: what should I do?


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#1 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 22 July 2021 - 03:19 PM

First a question: My rye bulk grow is pinning all over the sides, what's the best course of action for that?

 

When I first got started, I did some PF-Tek but with a left over syringe I, on a whim, inoculated some rye. Since I didn't have a pressure cooker at the time, I attempted to find out why people believed you couldn't do it any other way, so I searched and found very little, then started the following thread on shroomery: https://www.shroomer...27314090&page=0

Using logic, I figured the following: it seems as if steam sterilization of grain doesn't work because the time it takes the steam to heat the jar, penetrate the rye at the center of the jar, cook that rye, then sterilize the soft core of the rye would be about 8 hours, then if I soak and completely cook the rye first, sterilizing the core, then dry quickly, then steam sterilize, the steam would only have to sterilize the outer surface of the rye grain, and would take much much quicker. Would a PC still be quicker and easier? Sure! But I couldn't reason  why this method would not work? I started this thread: https://www.shroomer...2/vc/1#27357715
to figure out if anyone could answer the question, but, after frustration from talking past other posters, the final word was: grow a mushroom and prove it.

 

In fact, how frustrating that last thread became is the reason I decided to come here to Mycotopia. I'm not proud that I allowed myself to get as frustrated as I did, but, I did. I might have been an ignorant newbie, but people there, including the mod who inactivated that thread, just weren't able to understand (or care to understand) what I was asking. I think they thought the jars were contaminated just because "you need a pressure cooker, so if you didn't use one, they are contaminated". They let dogma get in the way of actually thinking. 

That being said, I spawned both rye jars to coir, and one is pinning! The other jar I spawned about a week after the first, but it's growing well too! I'll post some pictures below. So, you can sterilize rye by soaking to soften the grains, cooking to sterilize the core, and then steaming in jars to re-sterilize the outer parts.

 

I'm not saying this is the optimal way to do this, I'm not saying it will work again (but I imagine it would and am in the process of trying another batch using the same method, just for fun, and it seems to be working well-all 3 jars are 50% colonized), I'm not saying it is as easy as using a PC, but it is working.

 

Now to the point, lol, what do I do about those side pins?

Attached Thumbnails

  • Rye on coir 2.jpg
  • Rye on coir 1.jpg
  • rye coir 3.jpg
  • rye coir 4.jpg
  • rye coir 5.jpg
  • rye coir 6.jpg
  • rye coir 7.jpg

  • Salty117 likes this

#2 YoshiTrainer

YoshiTrainer

    Onion tied to belt

  • Gold VIP
  • 1,205 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 22 July 2021 - 05:34 PM

Your method on paper seems to make sense but more importantly, those subs speak very loudly for themselves, congratulations!

I personally don't mind side pins, sometimes they make huge fruits. Most people use a black plastic bags as liners for their grows, they stay w/the subs as they shrink and pull away from the tubs.

Good luck!
  • Salty117 and motley like this

#3 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 22 July 2021 - 07:12 PM

Thanks Yoshi!

I wonder why side pins might produce bigger fruits, maybe its the extra moisture? Will it be difficult to harvest them?



#4 YoshiTrainer

YoshiTrainer

    Onion tied to belt

  • Gold VIP
  • 1,205 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 22 July 2021 - 07:44 PM

You're welcome Motley! Im thinking moisture is the reason too. I'm not particularly delicate when I harvest cubes, usually just pull away at an angle or wiggle back and forth if stubborn. Most side pins can be handled the same way but occasionally they run under the sub. Then just gently raise one side of your sub til you can harvest from underneath, try not to crack the sub. :)

#5 newmoon

newmoon

    Mycotopiate

  • VIP
  • 372 posts

Posted 22 July 2021 - 10:03 PM

This page about sterilization principles might be useful. One can sterilize with boiling water at atmospheric pressure to an extent, but it takes much longer at 212F than under pressure (not sure where the 8 hours is coming from, as that's equivalent to much less than the 90 minutes we often sterilize grains for in the PC).

 

Some bacterial spores can also survive those temperatures. In fact, some bacterial endospores can survive up to 150C, much hotter than in the PC...

 

So, it's super cool if this works for you in a repeatable way! But, sterilization is a statistical thing, and I expect you'd have more failure than if you sterilize at higher temperature?


  • YoshiTrainer and motley like this

#6 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 23 July 2021 - 06:08 AM

That is a great article! Thanks for posting it. It does raise the question though: why does PF-tek work with steam sterilization but not Rye? If those temps don't sterlize, then the brown rice shouldn't be sterilized either. The only reasons I can think of are:

Is it the type of bacteria that usually are present in rye? If so, could the source of rye make a difference?

Is it that in both cases we are sanitizing just enough for the mycelium to out-compete the nasties? If so, maybe the cooking and steaming accomplishes this with the rye?

 

What do you think?



#7 pastyoureyes

pastyoureyes

    Manure Muscler

  • OG VIP
  • 1,017 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 23 July 2021 - 11:34 PM

https://tools.myfood...704/wt1-wt1/1-1
  • motley likes this

#8 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 24 July 2021 - 05:47 AM

So it's much more nutritious and therefore much preferred by molds and bacteria? So we are not truly sterilizing PF-Tek either, but we don't need to, since its less prone to contamination?



#9 pastyoureyes

pastyoureyes

    Manure Muscler

  • OG VIP
  • 1,017 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 24 July 2021 - 07:12 PM

So it's much more nutritious and therefore much preferred by molds and bacteria? So we are not truly sterilizing PF-Tek either, but we don't need to, since its less prone to contamination?


Perhaps.
  • MushLuvR and motley like this

#10 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 25 July 2021 - 07:23 AM

So the question would then be, what processes would be needed to bring the success rate for rye close to the success rate for steamed PF-Tek. So far, for 5 jars, I have a 100% success rate using the soak-cook-steam method (the last 3 jars are about 75% colonized so far, so they're not out of the woods yet!). The pins on the bulk grow posted above are amazing now though, well over a hundred pins at the moment I think! And that's a small shoebox. I'm definitely excited!



#11 FLASHINGROOSTER

FLASHINGROOSTER

    Semi-Pro Taco Robot

  • Black VIP
  • 2,890 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 25 July 2021 - 08:30 AM

Sure its nice when they all pin on the top but I don't worry about side growing mushrooms. You got pins now might as well let them grow. Some try to prevent them from happening in the first place but at this point I think letting them do their thing is best. They like to push their way up and out most of the time anyway. The odd one will grow down and appear a bit ugly but still gets you high. You can hold the tub on its side once it shrinks down a bit and pull those side pins off fairly easily. The ones on the bottom can require a bit of dexterity but really not that hard


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 25 July 2021 - 08:30 AM.

  • motley likes this

#12 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 25 July 2021 - 02:32 PM

Thanks for the tips! I can't wait for the harvest, and I want it to go well, so this definitely helps! 



#13 pastyoureyes

pastyoureyes

    Manure Muscler

  • OG VIP
  • 1,017 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 25 July 2021 - 10:43 PM

https://www.healthyc...ent-processing/

#14 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 26 July 2021 - 10:18 AM

Thanks for the article link! Very interesting stuff. In the case of this experiment though, why is it working if I'm only doing 1/3 of a discredited process? The mushrooms wouldn't grow if there was bacterial contamination present, right? Just making sure I don't have to worry about getting sick! :)

 

 

Also, a newbie question: I'll post pics below of what the shoebox looks like now. There are tons of pins and new ones forming every day! I can't imagine all of them really growing and having enough room to develop. Is there such thing as too many pins? (I posted pics of all 4 sides and the top)

Attached Thumbnails

  • Rye tub pinning 1.jpg
  • rye pins 2.jpg
  • rye pins 3.jpg
  • rye pins 4.jpg
  • rye pins 5.jpg

Edited by motley, 26 July 2021 - 10:22 AM.

  • Arathu likes this

#15 pastyoureyes

pastyoureyes

    Manure Muscler

  • OG VIP
  • 1,017 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 26 July 2021 - 06:44 PM

Mushrooms can fruit from bacterial substrate if I'm not mistaken.
  • motley likes this

#16 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 26 July 2021 - 07:37 PM

Any visible sign of bacteria in the substrate in my pics?



#17 pastyoureyes

pastyoureyes

    Manure Muscler

  • OG VIP
  • 1,017 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 26 July 2021 - 10:37 PM

In the tub I don't really see anything but that doesnt mean it's not there. Bacteria is a bit more difficult to identify than various colored molds. I'm pretty sure I've fruited bacterial bags before.
  • Arathu likes this

#18 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 27 July 2021 - 06:49 AM

Gotcha! So as long as we're not eating the mycelium I'd imagine it's safe, right? 


  • pastyoureyes likes this

#19 pastyoureyes

pastyoureyes

    Manure Muscler

  • OG VIP
  • 1,017 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 27 July 2021 - 07:01 AM

I'm really not qualified to answer that. Depends on the bacteria I guess. I'd really like to know more about how to tell safe from harmful (to humans) bacteria myself.

#20 motley

motley

    Mycophiliac

  • Free Member
  • 92 posts

Posted 27 July 2021 - 10:29 AM

If steaming and boiling doesn't kill bacteria, then  even PF-Tek could be contaminated with harmful bugs. I'm guessing that if a grow was contaminated enough to cause an issue, there would be signs like slow growth, uncolonized spots, discoloration, etc...if the mycelium looks healthy, and there is no sign of infection, it probably means that the mycelium out-competed and maybe even killed anything that might make one sick. That would be my guess, but I'm definitely not an expert!






Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!