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#1 Severian

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 12:24 PM

There are Bones in the Road.

 

To give you an idea of the scope of my meditations on the subject, I could give you a page count for the amount I've written.  But it would be quicker for me to put them on a scale and weigh them. Pounds.

 

 

I'm writing this; at this point, despondent; both because the vision I've developed allows me to see a world that has convinced me that hope is, at best, misplaced, and at worst, a distraction; and also because, to use the words of Joseph Chilton Pearce, I've "Cracked through the cosmic egg" far enough that It's literally impossible for me to communicate what I've seen to those who haven't been there.

 

Which puts me in a precarious spot, because on some level, I'm still 'Human'; I still have a need to connect and share with other human beings. To be seen. To be understood.

 

The problem in communicating, however, could be said to be language itself- but this doesnt go far enough towards actually explaining the issue. We all possess an internal Conceptual-dictionary; one that's shared, consensus style, with everyone else who lives in our culture, our world. These definitions are continually reinforced through every social interaction we have; be it through conversation, or the media we consume. This becomes problematic because these definitions are simplified, pix-elated versions of their larger, untampered-with true-selves....

 

Meaning, that to really communicate a shred of what I've seen, how I feel, I need to stop, point out and break down these simplified, distorted concepts- something that would take at least 100,000 words as an INTRODUCTION.

 

But here I am, feeling emotionally dead, wanting to connect on a 'human' level.

 

 

I'm frustrated because I can't NOT see the limitations this 'language' we use places on true communication. Because, besides the purely selfish motivation to get some form of emotional support, I have no intention to merely 'share' what I've seen-  This is the paradigm we're used to; Click 'share' Click 'Submit' Click 'Tweet" 'Click Publish".... Just because we take it for granted and give no thought to it; what we accept is NORMAL is not NATURAL. 

 

Transmission of information =/= Reception of Information.  In one ear and out the other; more commonly. Or, perhaps the information actually does 'stick'; but rather more like cholesterol clogging artery walls; becoming fixed parts of a continually accumulating belief-construct that obfuscates 'R'eality. ....

 

 

 

Without clearly indicating the limitations of the medium, the intention will fail. Say I want to offer you a drink of wine; but, the only glass available has holes all on one side of it; I'd have to point this out to you, and hand it to you, just so in order that it wouldn't spill all over the floor.

 

 

Likewise, here.

 

The very paradigm surrounding how we've learned to seek out, and process information is the issue. A general enough statement, and it is as wide-reaching as the statement implies.  First, however, considered from a more specific angle; Information as that contained soley within the words we can find, on webpages like these, in books etc...

 

 

We're taught that 'truth is subjective'. Especially more so when it comes to hallucinogens. You're trip is your trip, His trip is his trip.... Sure, there are commonalities; but we don't give enough credit to the experience of our peers. Because, "Experts" are the ones who have been given the authority by the cultural priests to dictate what is and what is not "R'eality. 

 

 

Gahhhhh

 

I'm feeling like a whiny bitch.

 

It comes down to this.

 

 

A little over a year ago, I had a series of mushroom trips; the first I'd ever grown, GT; culminating in the most potent psychedelic experience I've ever had, ever.

 

As a bit of background; I've spent the majority of my adult life 'seeking'; From age twenty onwards; I've lived on the fringes of civilization; Living in Communes in the most remote land imaginable, travelling in school busses, hitch hiking and living under bridges; Living in the Amazon with a family of ayahuasceros, Living in a Monastery.... I haven't owned a cell phone in eight years....

 

figuring out what the fuck 'R'(capitol r) eality is, has been the driving motivation for my existence....

 

 

I'm what you could call a 'sensitive'; to detach this from any disgustingly bubblegum white light new age spirituality; what i mean by this is that when taking any psychedelic substance, I'm prone to blast the fuck off. 

 

As in, for whatever reason, I'm constitutionally of the type that I'm able to let go of control  (or grab ahold of it) in a way that allows for incredibly powerful experiences to come through;

 

Beginning with the first mushroom trip back 12-13 years ago; where I ate only a few (golden teacher iirc), and my friends nearly took me to the hospital (It was an INCREDIBLE experience. thank god they didnt)

 

Followed intermittently with trips where I ate what I was certain were 'low' doses, only to be 'taken' for a ride that would take me days to come down from fully.

 

 

To give the background, to illustrate that  when I say 'Potent" psychedelic experience, I really mean this coming from someone who has spent more than a decade essentially being a professional psychonaut.

 

 

Flash back to the experience I was referring to a little over a year ago. I had been asking to learn more about the purge process the mushrooms has to offer; all the while using the Velada as a container for the experience thanks to the work shared by Elfstone and Donshadow. 

 

 

I spent seven or eight hours in the bathroom, with candles, vomitting on and off. I was able to feel the 'not-me' "demons'' "negative entities' within me, specifically located in various 'channels'; and I could grab hold of them, and force them up and out. And, this energy I experienced PHYSICALLY- Some of these entities I experienced as carbonated, or acidic, or spicy.... or they took on more 'solid' forms.... ignoring the 'gross' aspect of this, it was incredibly interesting to see just how many varied forms these energies took on...

 

It brought to mind 'Mario." climbing through pipes, jumping on 'goombas'... eventually to come to the big boss battle- I was beating 'level' after level.... occasionally coming to mini bossess.... After clearing each 'stage'. I was more embodied and felt more powerful than I ever have before....

 

It came to the point, where I was  literally luminescent. I could see into my body, and see the light-energy flow... It's impossible to describe this experience in a way that could do it justice. I experienced myself, for the first time ever as POWER. As STRENGTH. as SOLID. Pure embodiment to a level beyond any imaginable.

 

 

Eventually, I came to locate 'the big boss demon'; I gave it everything trying to expel it from my body; but ended up completely spent and exhausted; It had been 9 hours since I ate the mushrooms the night before, and I'd spent the majority of that 'flipping tables and cracking whips' and excorcising the temple; I had no energy left to finish the job.

 

I ended up with a terrible case of laryngitis for a few days. And my body decided it didn't need food for 2 weeks. Easiest fast I've ever done.....

 

 

 

It was the straw that broke the camels back; I'd spent a good amount of time in the amazon; and had learned how the people there view the world, with its spirits, and the way in which ayahuasca helps calcify the negative energies within the body in order so that it can expel them; but It'd always been sort of an add on, 'interesting' belief system; despite having experienced it time and again.

 

It wasn't until this last experience that it really clicked. "This, is REAL" It's existence is independent of our ordinary, everyday lack of recognition. What we can't see, what we dont acknowledge CAN and DOES affect us.

 

 

It goes to the core of our being; because, these entities, just like tapeworms and other parasites, become so intertwined with the body, that it becomes nearly impossible to differentiate where they end and where we begin; Emotional States, thoughts, behaviour; these can ALL be influenced by the 'not self'... To 'ground' this into not metaphysical land for those who think that's what I'm talking about; physical parasites have been proven to be able to influence the behavior, and tastes of their hosts.

 

The bio-spiritual parasites I'm talking about do EXACTLY the same thing. But it takes place on the level of self-identity. The insecurity, anxiety, depression, weakness... All of this is NOT US. We've learned to identify with it, we call it the EGO we accept it as NATURAL because we accept it as normal..... when this is so far from the case.

 

We have an entire civilization built on this lie. This artificial self /ego is the building block of the individual; forming together to form the larger whole of CULTURE itself.

 

And, this culture continually replicates itself, and reinforces itself; taking even our 'outside the box' experiences; (just like what I'm sharing right now) and feeding off of it. Resistance is truly futile; at least when using the tools created by this culture...

 

The master's tools will not bring down the masters house.

 

 

So; what ends up happening, is people have these WHOA THIS IS ACTUALLY REAL REALITY experiences, and then coming back and  cramming / compressing them into words; which they then share in a book, and then 'make a name for themselves' and go on book tours as a popular author delving into esoteric ideas; and thousands of people read them, and like them, and retweet them and continue to live their 'I'm addicted to my cell phone" suburban life corporate job existence.....

 

In short. NOTHING FUCKING CHANGES. Which is exactly the point...

 

 

It's an issue of Identity.

 

We've been sold a lie of what it means to be an actual human being.

 

And that lie looks like Modern 21st century Technoworship civilization.

 

I'm fully aware of the hypocrisy of my computer use in order to communicate this- but this is part of the point;  the control system has progressed so far that I'm reduced to using a technology I completely and totally loathe; one that has direct, negative physiological effects on my animal body (and that of the earth as macro), in order to try to find some manner of solace for the deep, deep. existential pain I'm feeling.

 

The fact that it is an issue of IDENTITY means that any true attempts to 'solve' the problem require a re-identification to take place. Which is a non-threatening way of saying "a willful suicide'- A full recognition that the "I" I've Identified with since the beginning, is in fact, an artificial construct, one designed to actually keep me from touching the "Real self"....

 

So, of course, Cognitive dissonance enters the picture, and attempts to discredit and reinterpret this in anyway it possibly can, in order to prevent the dissolution of the false-self. It's a survival mechanism. And IT's STRONG.

 

 

It's strong enough that I realize I still have farther to go- and I'm totally fucking terrified of taking the next step.

 

And I suppose this may be the motivation for writing this; because; there is not really another alternative for me. I've confronted 'R'eality. there's no denying it for me; or at least, once experienced, I can pretend the best I can that it never happened, but there is continually a shadow over the rest of my existence telling me 'This. is. all. a .lie"  I don't think it's actually possible for me, no matter how hard "I" may think I want to, to ignore what I've seen and just go back to normal life.... Perhaps before Covid; but now the 'above ground' effects of the deeper reality I've touched are unavoidable on a daily basis...; 

 

I set out searching for an answer to the puzzle of why our world is as fucked as it is; and now that I've convinced myself beyond a shadow of a doubt that I've an answer, one that is continually making more and more sense;  sometimes I desperately wish that I never started on this path in the first place.

 

 

The only legitamet response I can see to the problem is a complete retreat from Culture; find some off-grid land, build a small cabin, and work intentionally with mushrooms to fix the problem... But I'm not rich; if all goes well I'm at least a few years a way from this.... but the larger issue I see is that I don't see it being all that possible to do this solo.... But then I'm right back to the problem of how to communicate this to other people.....

 

The longer I isolate myself from the dominant culture, the more difficult it becomes for me to interact with those still trapped in this....

 

And, the more that I twirl these ideas around, the more hopeless the communication of this appears; Why even try to share what I've seen if it's truly hopeless?

 

Clearly, I'm between a rock and a hard place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tl;Dr It comes down to this.

 

The entirety of the cultivated mind

All of the religions

All of weekend-warrior new age spirituality

Is aimed at obscuring and distorting a singular idea.

 

Our. Power. Is . In . Our . Bodies.

We . Are. Physical. Beings.

 

Abstraction = Dissociation from our source of power.


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#2 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 02:17 PM

Nice, well written sir. Plenty to think about in there, here are a few random ones that made me want to reply

 

sometimes I desperately wish that I never started on this path in the first place.

 

I have been wondering about this part myself. Buddhist often talk about working to remove the ego and realizing the true self. Similar thoughts about where does this internal dialogue even come from,  its not really me is it? However the end result seems to be a bit of disassociating, that part seems unclear whether it is helpful or detrimental, it seems like it can act as both depending on the situation

 

 

What we can't see, what we dont acknowledge CAN and DOES affect us.

 

I find this to be true on so many levels, I would go as far to say it includes things we do see as well, but choose not to deal with in that moment. We tell ourselves, I will address that later and wipe it from our minds like it doesn't matter. But it does, it sits in there and festers on some level, even something as simple as that dirty part of the floor you have been meaning to wash. Its amazing the weird sense of relief you feel when you address it. To pull it out even further it tends to be why some folk self medicate, rather than address those underlying issues causing pain, we try to silence them but it only provides temporary relief.

 

 

 

The longer I isolate myself from the dominant culture, the more difficult it becomes for me to interact with those still trapped in this....
 

 

Agreed on that one. The funny part is the dominate culture works to make you think your the crazy one. The one who is trapped

 

 

Give into hopelessness (Seems like a crazy idea if you haven't placed much thought into it before)

 

Stop torturing yourself with hope!

 

Wise words indeed when applied correctly

 

Like that old saying, don't get your hopes up


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#3 Severian

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 04:09 PM

Nice, well written sir. Plenty to think about in there, here are a few random ones that made me want to reply

 

sometimes I desperately wish that I never started on this path in the first place.

 

I have been wondering about this part myself. Buddhist often talk about working to remove the ego and realizing the true self. Similar thoughts about where does this internal dialogue even come from,  its not really me is it? However the end result seems to be a bit of disassociating, that part seems unclear whether it is helpful or detrimental, it seems like it can act as both depending on the situation

 

 

 

That's the truth of it; As far as helpful or detrimental, I think this can only really be evaluated dependant on the degree of work-finished.... "The two biggest mistakes are not starting the path and not going all the way...." Which I suppose refers to birth as well....  No one wants to be half-trapped in the birth canal. Which is especially relevant to me as I was born with my umbilical around my neck.....

 

The first real glimpse I got of the 'what is the internal dialogue then and where does it come from?" Happened two weeks into my stay at a monastery in Sri Lanka; Deep vipassana meditation 18 hours a day.... And, one meditation, I got my first 'glimpse' of it; and you know what happened? I felt 'IT', aware of my awareness, and it fucking slithered away into a deeper corner of my subconsciousness. as if it were terrified of being seen.

 

This was years prior to the mushroom experience I explained in my post above.

 

 

Vipassana is one of the strongest tools I'm aware of; but from what I've seen, those responsible for the 'It /Non self"; the same 'they' that's responsible for the control system; are FAR more powerful than we generally give them credit for..... in that they've the capacity (and the motive) to tamper with our religions, our 'spiritualitiy', any transformative techniques that are readily accessible, have had their teeth removed; all 'escape velocity techniques' have been rendered threatless.... Given to us in a dose that is sub-thresehold, or in a package that renders the actual catalytic power of whatever technique sterile..... 

 

It's like; We're all wandering around in a massive used car lot; we have the ability to choose, and are encouraged to choose any vehicle we want; the only thing is that not a single one has gas in the tank and we've never been taught that cars need gas to go.

 

As far as the dissociation bit; on some level it's imperative to begin making the distinction between I and not I; because there's no way to remove the splinter unless it's first identified as a foreign invader.

 

It's like, The body is a castle; and the guards on the wall are all staring into the land beyond to make sure no invaders enter; but, there's already a spy within the walls. But unless someone first brings this to the awareness of the guards, all attention is going to be turned external, and no one is going to doubt or suspect that there may be an invader already present..... The first step is beginning to doubt the self....

 

What's amusing is that I was guided towards looking at Acupuncture and classical chinese medicine after that trip; and there's a huge part of classical chinese medicine dealing with 'Gu syndrome' which is essentially these bio-spiritual parasites; described 3000 years ago as 'oil falling into flour' in that the separation of one from the other is incredibly difficult.

 

 

 

I find this to be true on so many levels, I would go as far to say it includes things we do see as well, but choose not to deal with in that moment. We tell ourselves, I will address that later and wipe it from our minds like it doesn't matter. But it does, it sits in there and festers on some level, even something as simple as that dirty part of the floor you have been meaning to wash. Its amazing the weird sense of relief you feel when you address it. To pull it out even further it tends to be why some folk self medicate, rather than address those underlying issues causing pain, we try to silence them but it only provides temporary relief.

 

 

Yeah.... Micro and Macro agree with this; On the micro level; as much as I truly understand the purge process, and realize it's necessity, and how awessssome, or rather just how 'me' I feel afterwards, going through the literal vomitting....blegh. I can't think of anything I dislike more. Which is rather amusing, because the actual experience isn't that bad; it's the anticipation that's the worst- and I understand that it's not actually 'Me' that dislikes it; but rather the same organisms that are doing their best to come up with ANY possible excuse not to eat a grip of mushrooms and get it over with. As System of a Down says 'My tapeworm. Tells. ME. What. To. Do.!"

 

 

 

Agreed on that one. The funny part is the dominate culture works to make you think your the crazy one. The one who is trapped

 

 

Give into hopelessness (Seems like a crazy idea if you haven't placed much thought into it before)

 

Stop torturing yourself with hope!

 

Wise words indeed when applied correctly

 

Like that old saying, don't get your hopes up

 

 

Yeah.... I mean, maybe I'm just reaching the end of my rope....I'm thinking of it like the way in which the body switches fuel sources from glucose to ketones come day threeish of a fast; but translated to the social realm....In that I'm just around the same point before switching over to some new fuel source, and my shadow-self is craving for the release that it would find in social world..... Idk....

 

The small town community that I have access to is filled with people either unaware or pretending to themselves everything is ok. In varying degrees  Which I think is a pretty good assessment of the world at large. andddd I've no desire to connect with them at all. And yet, I feel a need maybe? to form some human connections.... I live, and have lived ,a primarily solo/hermit existence for a good while.... but either I'm starting to notice the effects of a 'nutrient deficiency'or I just need to fully commit to it...

 

The problem is that locationwise, I have to interact on a fairly regular basis. If it were all or nothing it would be easier. Again, the Social Ketosis metaphor... I've spent an extended period of time off grid in solo meditation; and it's no problem.... but this 'living in the world. not being of the world' thing is tough.

 

And as far as 'give up all hope goes'..... I've considered this in some depth; most often throwing around the metaphor of a trauma surgeon.... On a battlefield, Medic spends .5 seconds flat eyeing dude in stretcher #1, before he goes to the guy in the bed next to him and starts applying a tourniquet. Poor sap in stretcher 1 has his guts falling out and doesnt warrant a second glance; no chance at all.... A medic who is unable to tell the difference between guy in stretcher # 1 and dude in bed two had best find himself another profession....

 

But.... say I am correct in my assessment, and say I do give up hope.... What's a life worth if there's no one to share it with?

 

 

The only option available to (us) is to band together and dip out of society entirely. It's the reason why monks / hermits have fled to the mountains for eons.... Culture /(and those in it) exhibit a type of inhibitory-gravitational field when it comes to novelty / true evolution.... We can see an example of this by looking at the mutation rates of bacteria.... bacteria mutate 3x faster when isolated from a culture than those still in a culture; and the same is true for us.

 

It's interesting to look at the way in which Culture presents images to us of passionate groups of people singularly focused on a 'spiritual' belief or system- We have a word-label that's immediately applied to this in a deragotory light. "Cult."   Can you think of a single positive example of this?

 

The way in which this concept is treated expands; to those who are singularly driven towards a spiritual goal- We call them 'Zealots". And Zealtry, in todays day and age, has become synonymous with terrorists.

 

"spirituality' is ok as long as one isn't all that serious about it. Again, 'Sub-thresehold doses'

 

I'm convinced that the only effective path available to us is to come together in smallish groups, singularly aimed on 'evolution' and collectively agreeing in our individual tribes to completely disconnect from the beast, become self sufficient, and put all of our energies that aren't spent on basic survival into learning just what our bodies are capable of with the use of intentional, focused mushroom use.

 

DO WE NOT HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO REALIZE THAT THERE"S NO POINT (AND NO PLEASURE) IN CONTINUING TO AGREE TO PLAY THIS STUPID FUCKING GAME?!

 

Because what's the alternative?

 

And here is where i still get hung up on hope. Because, 1. I don't see anyone fed up enough with the current game to throw up there hands and stop playing. Which includes their 'fed up with their own illusory superficial "still taking facebook selfies" self' and 2.  Maybe it's possible to achieve escape velocity 'solo'.... but at that point is it even worth it?


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#4 pharmer

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 07:25 PM

I'd spin this differently.

 

Thank all that is good and divine for having revealed this to you. You can carry this around in your metaphorical pocket knowing that you have a nugget of something 10000X more valuable than gold.

You don't have to spend it, there probably is nowhere to spend it while still walking around in your monkey suit. But you can share it, as you have here. I can imagine some lucky young punk getting stoned with you one day and being introduced to these ideas. That's how you'll capitalize on this knowledge.

 

Slight change of topic: you say we're trapped in a technological jail which keeps us from our true selves. How far back in time would mankind have to go to get back  to his true self?????

 

coincidentally, I have a punch line photograph just for this occasion :biggrin:

 

 

 

caged by age sized.jpg


Edited by pharmer, 26 August 2021 - 07:26 PM.

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#5 ElPirana

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 08:10 PM

From my experience, suffering comes from a false identification of who/what you are.  So who are you?  The problem comes from trying to come up with that answer.

 

If you ask who you are, you automatically think there is a you that can be identified.  Just question it, try to find who or what you are.  It goes back until you find that experience is simply happening.  Seeing is happening.  Hearing is happening. etc.  But there is no difference  between the seeing, the seer and the object seen.  It's all one process, there is no separation at all.  And what are you when seeing is not happening at all?

 

Question it.  It will lead you to the answer.

 

I've had many of the same ideas that you've brought up.  Without knowing yourself, you will lead yourself astray.  The answer isn't to isolate yourself, or to take mushrooms, or to find the right community, or any other myriad of things that will 'make things better'.  If you truly want to strop struggling, the ONLY thing to do is to know yourself.

 

I've quoted this from Ramana Maharshi before, but I will quote it again.  I find the truth of it repeatedly in my own life.

 

Whatever burdens are thrown on God, He bears them. Since the supreme power of God makes all things move, why should we, without submitting ourselves to it, constantly worry ourselves with thoughts as to what should be done and how, and what should not be done and how not? We know that the train carries all loads, so after getting on it why should we carry our small luggage on our head to our discomfort, instead of putting it down in the train and feeling at ease?

 


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#6 TVCasualty

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Posted 26 August 2021 - 09:46 PM

Well you've been busy! Lots of fascinating food for thought in there.
 

I saw too much once, too. Words fail. I'm still coming to terms with it.

 

I'm fully aware of the hypocrisy of my computer use in order to communicate this- but this is part of the point;  the control system has progressed so far that I'm reduced to using a technology I completely and totally loathe; one that has direct, negative physiological effects on my animal body (and that of the earth as macro), in order to try to find some manner of solace for the deep, deep. existential pain I'm feeling.

 

 

But would you have reached this state of awareness without that computer and this inconceivably-vast network that connects billions of such computers? Where else are you going to get the feedback you're getting to your words? And don't worry about your body, those things will either wear out or rust out; there's no escaping being kicked out eventually no matter what we do or don't do. I seem to be on the "wear out" path.  Which fucking hurts. But rusting away hurts a lot worse. There doesn't seem to be a path that doesn't fucking hurt like hell, it seems. So life has a funny way of disabusing us of the notion that immortality, at least in a physical body, is something desirable.

 

 

But while you're still here, consider an arch. Specifically the traditional kind used for thousands of years consisting of an arrangement of carefully-shaped, dry-stacked stone blocks. I saw an image of one being built in my mind while reading your posts.

Arches are very stable, surprisingly strong structures that can bear massive loads across spans that seem far beyond their apparent capabilities.

But they’re tricky and difficult to build.

The scaffolding and framework needed to build one is always removed once it’s completed. But it couldn’t be built without those things, nor can it reach its full potential if they are left in place. But upon seeing a completed arch, the existence of the frame that made it possible isn’t obvious, or even slightly apparent. This might explain a lot of things in our world that otherwise defy straightforward explanation (including the existence of DNA, as one hypothesis puts forth). Computers might be a part of one such work-in-progress. If that's true then there will be a time to discard them, too.

 

 

I’ve noticed that it’s vanishingly unlikely that I’d just so happen to be alive right now, at the cutting edge of the tipping point of the history of our species vs. …any other time.

That suggests (to me anyway) that my existence might not just be a one-off fluke. That maybe I’ve always been at the cutting edge of Evolution since I’m what’s evolving. Same goes for everyone else. Then I usually think “Well, duuuuuh" as if it's self-evident, then a few hours later I come down and fall asleep.

 

So we’re here now (or close enough to now) because it’s the only place we could possibly be. Same as it ever was, I suspect.

 

And that’s not likely to change, so we’ll be here watching when the ice sheets melt and we’ll be here when they re-form. We’ll be here at The End of Earth For Real, too. Then we’ll go somewhere else when our time here is finished because that’s what it will be time to do.

It’s just a ride., bio-spiritual parasites be damned! (I like that phrase a whole lot, very evocative in a Rorschach ink-blot kind of way)

 

Though maybe the bio-spiritual parasites are like Judas in the Jesus story, which is to say essential for the plot to play out. Can't be getting too comfortable or complacent after all; that way lies rust.

 

The only option available to (us) is to band together and dip out of society entirely. “

 

If we could do that, then we could do that.

But we ARE society, so we can’t. All we'd do is annoy the squirrels. Trust me, I tried and I've heard them chattering.

The woman I bailed on college for and I tried, rather. All the way off the grid, for years. Built a house by hand (no power tools). And what we ended up doing was reinfuckingventing society! And annoying the hell out of a bunch of squirrels. The mushroom trip where we finally had the realization of what we’d actually done out in those woods over those years was one of the funniest moments I’ve ever had tripping that hard.

And it’s not like we could really escape the juggernaut and technoboredom no matter what we did; it caught up to us eventually. It only took three years after pitching our tent in the boonies before our view of the stars began to diminish thanks first to the new goddamned Chevron built 8 miles away.

 

 

That said, one of the Tracker compounds for those who want to live to see the next phase of human existence while still in their present bodies is in Nicaragua [hint, hint]. The other one is somewhere else, but you can walk to it from Nicaragua if you had to. I was on that trip for a long time but once I saw too much I was no longer so clingy about this particular life. And frankly the thought of surviving what's coming in the 2030's doesn't interest me anymore at all.

 

One thing Tom (the tracker dude) liked to stress was that it's easy to advance spiritually if we retreat out to the wilderness by ourselves, where there's no distractions. It's real hard to manifest spirit in the noisy, bad-chaotic world ("the world" being human society while wilderness and life in general is "the Earth"). But the world now threatens the Earth, so the fight must be taken to the world to ensure we don't lose the Earth, or at least the parts of it that we need to continue existing as a species.

 

Civilization as we know it is already toast, obviously. Again, I should add (and as history shows). We're just running out the clock at this point and I suspect that at some level we all know this. It might explain the exponentially-expanding weirdness throughout society. Anyway, at this point the focus (IMO) ought to be on mitigating mass-extinction events (including our own) while we still can since the more biodiversity we can preserve across the transition, the easier it will be on those who come out alive when the dust finally settles and the next stage of our history has begun.

 

See you there!


Edited by TVCasualty, 26 August 2021 - 09:48 PM.

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#7 Severian

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Posted 27 August 2021 - 12:29 PM


 

Slight change of topic: you say we're trapped in a technological jail which keeps us from our true selves. How far back in time would mankind have to go to get back  to his true self?????

 

coincidentally, I have a punch line photograph just for this occasion :biggrin:

 

 

So... I'm not entirely certain exactly what motivations you have behind asking that question. I'll answer, but first I need to point out a general trend I've noticed in the 'esoteric/alternative literature'....

 

There are BOOKS AND BOOKS AND BOOKS written by many many many people giving super specific information in regards to 'It was THIS Extra-terrestrial race' or it was 'THIS secret society' or 'this specific power-elite individual.'  ...it took place in ATLANTIS. 35,690 years ago. . which is to say that WAY more energy is placed on laser-specific pointing the finger at WHO and WHERE and WHEN, when that energy could be  directed towards personal development....  which is a little public service announcement directed at anyone who could qualify as a past-self version of me; whose spent way too many wasted hours down deep internet rabbit holes trying to figure out all the exact 'true' theories....  Most of this is non-important in the scheme of things....

 

I speak from experience, in that the 'answers' I sought for a long time were of the 'factoid' type....Which, serves to satisfy a purely 'intellectual' hunger, one that can then build artificial belief systems which serve to give the ego something it can hold onto when it says 'I believe in ....".... I'm certain this is the reason why all contact I've had with 'higher dimensional benevelent entities" have declined to answer any of my pointed questions regarding 'Where do you come from' "Can I see the inside of your spaceship (got a bit of a talking to for that question. lol) etc.

 

HOWEVER. There are 'Capitol A' answers. Which can be discovered.

 

in answer to your question. "How far back do we have to go to get to our true selves?" I can't give you an exact number.

 

What I can do is point out very clear stages in the 'programming' process. Ignoring the acceleration that's taken place over the last 3800 years, and focusing on the most important two junctures.

 

What's important to realize, is that ALL of modern history has been geared towards our continued and increasing level of dissociation from our connection to the natural world; On a macro level, from our direct relationship with the earth and the bioregion in which we live, and on a micro level, with our own senses and within our own bodies. I need not point out the environmental degradation, and I shouldn't need to point out the increasing deadening of our physiological sensitivities.

 

And, all of this has come about through the advent of various technologies that serve to abstract our sense of identity from the physical world, to that of a 'spiritual' or mental one.... Technologies both 'technological' and 'ideological' Screens the most obvious expression of the former; but the ideological inventions are no less impactful; look at decartes 'mind/body dualism' for example..... , but what I'm really referring to, and which is FAR more effective at doing this is representational language in both of its manifestations- The most recent introduction being the ALPHABET. Whose story is incredibly interesting, but even going back to the introduction of representational language itself....

 

The story of the alphabet is FUCKING FASCINATING. If I had to assign one 'book report' for anyone, ever; it would be to read 'The alphabet vs the goddess' by leonard Shlain. In it, he tells the story of what happened whenever a pre-literate culture encountered the alphabet for the first time. Results = STAGGERING. Across the board, where we used to find egalitarian, earth worshipping cultures, making fertilitiy goddess statues- after the alphabet strikes, these cultures turn patriarchal, begin worshipping 'sacred texts' instead of using sculpture and images.... and in general turning their attention towards the abstract, very much to the detriment of the physical immediacy around them.

 

It's not my intention to get super in depth with this here; but in a slightly bigger nutshell; the story of  Moses, is that he goes up on Mt. Sinai, and 'God' (the same higher dimensional being that sent Gabriel to Mohammed and told him 'Read in the name of the lord), This 'God' gives moses the ten commandments. Which, if we disconnect for a moment from the traditional religious context the  story is told in. is

1. The first instance of the Alphabet

2. The first instance of monotheism

3. The first time that  'time' was considered sacred

4. The first time that a name was considered sacred, separate from that which it represented.

 

And, I think, though I'm not sure if I remember correctly, but I believe it was also the first instance of codified law.

 

In ADDITION. The first four commandments reinforce abstract thought. Consider, number 2 is 'Thou shalt not make any graven images." Which comes before 'thou shalt not murder' on the list. Interesting. And the priests took this SERIOUSLY; to the extent that crusades were carried out where any 'sacred images' of other religions were burned and destroyed....

 

So this is SUPER interesting. In that, according to the story, (the one that three of the most powerful religions in the world all stem from) some entity, with a HIGHLY ADVANCED INTELLIGENCE AND POWER, appears to man, and in one fell swoop, gives him some incredibly advanced, never before seen technological and cultural developments AT THE SAME TIME. All of which reinforce his abstraction from both his body and the world around him.

 

Of course, the story doesn't start there

 

Representational Language (I qualify this term from simply using "Language" itself because what I'm referring to is the introduction / beginning (invasion) of the idea of using Abstract symbols to communicate set meaning instead of communicating meaning directly. It's perhaps difficult to imagine what this might be like; some poignant evidence for this is the definitions that dictionary.com gives for language - the first 6 relating to using words to communicate meaning... it's not until definition number 7 we get to the idea that a Language need not be composed of discrete symbols assigned specific definitions

 

"communication of meaning in any way; medium that is expressive, significant, etc.: "

 

...

 

Representational Language does a REAL good job of creating a convincing illusion that communication is actually taking place between individuals..... But we're missing something VITAL; and, we've fallen under the trap of accepting the normal as natural... we've been (attempting) to communicate in this verbal-ping-pong way in which we try to compress the totality of our experience into fixed-words and then send them off into the 'void' between us and whomever we're talking with; and they then hopefully, recieve and unpack this and we see them nod their head in understanding.... but SO much is lost. In translation, and also due to the ever-present spectre of cognitive-dissonance.

 

Telepathy is a charged term, filled with misunderstandings- But I doubt that I have to go very far in talking about this to the crowd on this forum; I'd be willing to bet a sizable chunk of money that this demographic has a wealth of personal experiences of wordless-communion/communication....

 

Our very DNA is in the shape of a radio antennae for crying out loud.

 

 

I also need to point out the internal monologue that constantly runs in the head and draws our attention away from our senses and our bodies, and instead places it on an internal 'screen' that eternally comments it's opinions on the sensations, as opposed to focusing on the sensations themselves....

 

 

Let's look at the old old old stories/legends present in the different ancient teachings; And while we're at it, lets look  at the physical evidence left behind....

 

What we see, is that there are stories of a 'golden age'; whether it's the Daoists, writing 3000 years ago, or the Egyptians.... There are whispers of a time where men  had IMMENSE power.

 

The best I can figure, this was a time where were in direct, telepathic (whatever that means), pre-verbal communication with one and other, and the planet as a whole. 

 

At some point, Language, a totally artificial construct, entered into the minds of men (which at that time could concievabley been considered to be the MIND of man); and this was the first intital infection vector; One that was designed to eventually lead us to where we are today (and a  bit farther.)

 

To give a natural metaphor for the process; there is a family of Wasps called 'Hymenoptera.' They prey on the bodies of caterpillars; They inject them with a poison, a poly-dna virus, which halts their natural lifecycle, and instead alters their behavior such that they forego their inevitable transformation, and instead, remain a caterpillar; and, the eggs of the wasp grow instead of the caterpillar.  It's as if the natural evolution/transformation of the caterpillar was hijacked by the wasp.

 

In our case, our physiological evolution was hijacked to steal this energy for the purposes of whatever 'higher dimensional' analog the wasps have in our universe. The 'polydna virus' that alters our behavior and paralyzes this evolution is representational language itself. 

 

It's circumstantial, and it's certainly debatable whether or not a constantly enlarging cranial capacity is evidence for physiological evolution; but it is certainly interesting that circa somewhere around 40,000 years ago, that man's brainsize stopped growing.

 

.... Aside from the conjecture though; just imagine being able to directly communicate the deliciousness of an apple with someone; in full sensory detail- no descriptions in the way , but a complete, non-compressed transference of experience..... This is what we've missed / are missing.

...

 

Pharmer, are those pteradactyls?

 

 

 


Quote

The only option available to (us) is to band together and dip out of society entirely. “

 

If we could do that, then we could do that.

But we ARE society, so we can’t. All we'd do is annoy the squirrels. Trust me, I tried and I've heard them chattering.

...

One thing Tom (the tracker dude) liked to stress was that it's easy to advance spiritually if we retreat out to the wilderness by ourselves, where there's no distractions. It's real hard to manifest spirit in the noisy, bad-chaotic world ("the world" being human society while wilderness and life in general is "the Earth"). But the world now threatens the Earth, so the fight must be taken to the world to ensure we don't lose the Earth, or at least the parts of it that we need to continue existing as a species.

 

 

 

I nearly agree with you.... but I can't help but seeing a possibility for a real 'quantum leap' taking place; one spurred exactly by the 'scaffolding' of the present 'Oh shit the contuinance of life on this planet is threatened...."  I'm a staunch materialist at this point- in that I recognize the sacredness and specialness and intelligence of Life itself.... Like you said, the fact that we've made it this far, at this point in time, on the cutting edge of evolution is something... The fact that this unique expression of genes has somehow managed to even just survive as long as it has, in an unbroken chain going who knows how far back is incredible.

 

And, given my experiences, it's impossible for me to accept that evolution doesn't move without some form of intelligence willing it in a certain direction. Fate exists; in the least from the perspective that an acorn is destined to turn into an oak- whether it manages to realize this destiny is of a moot point- the fact is that it exists.

 

Whether we have a pre-programmed destiny to realize some 'higher' form of life, or our current environmental pressure is going to act as a catalyst to initiate a new- mutation.... I think it's entirely possible that a leap-up into a higher energetic electron shell is possible; certainly not for all of us; but for those truly devoted to the idea, It's difficult for me to accept that the intelligence present in our DNA would allow such a long project to just dissolve into entropy.... It's moving TOWARDS something; to abandon a few hundred million years of trials strikes me as wasteful.... 

 

We have immense power in us; but it's a power we need  to realize physically; and it's this physical realization which all of our civilization is aimed at preventing.....And like I said in my original post, it requires a complete willingness to leave behind the Self.....which makes it sound easy... And, to throw a wrench at all of the 'spiritualists' out there talking about man's ascension, I'm fully convinced this is an entirely in-body/embodied thing. There's a reason that they've tried to get us to separate our self-image from the body after all. ..........

 

I hear you regarding the inevitability of recreating society if one drops out of society.... it's a similar idea behind rebels overthrowing tyrannical governments and then becoming just as tyrannical in a few years....

 

But, just because this has been the pattern for as long as we've been recording history, doesnt mean that it has to be the way things play out.

 

The type of 'drop out' I'm referring to can only be done by a small group of individuals totally committed to 'breaking through'.... I mean, like a laser focused attempt to root out the false-self; this aim being equally shared by every member of the crew.... I'm talking an intensity that I'm sure few can imagine and even fewer have experienced.....

 

Certain ideas ONLY function if their located in specific places. Take a radio antennae for example; if it's placed at the bottom of a valley, it's not going to have any effect. It needs to be placed on top of a mountain. Likewise, the type of 'reprogramming' that is intended, cannot take place within the constant bombardment/stimulation of our society.   I mean, looking at it purely from a physiological standpoint; the bodies stress response to being overstimulated and the environmental toxins present in modern cities are enough to keep the body in constant-keyed up anxiety states...

 

Perhaps a tight circle IS necessary; in that in order to truly achieve escape velocity, at least a few other people equally dedicated towards the realization of a new paradigm (and the removal of an old one) allows each member to lean on each other. If consciousness is a localized field effect (it is), then what 'Christ' was supposed to have said is totally accurate 'Where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there'.... That it's necessary, in order to form a stable 'alternate reality bubble' , to have a thresehold-minimum number of individuals to hold the field - stable.

 

 

 

I really shouldn't be even talking about this at all, because I haven't carried the line of exploration through to it's conclusion.... .... It's far easier to armchair theorize than to do the real work.

 

 

Can you send me the info of that tracker community?


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#8 ElPirana

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Posted 27 August 2021 - 02:34 PM

What exactly are you desiring? The title of this thread is “Struggling”, and you have made a number of statements that sounds to me like you’re not at peace. At first I thought you wanted to be at peace, but now I’m beginning to think you want to do something, maybe to make a technological advancement or to help human-kind evolve. Am I on the right track with this?

I mean, it is true that in feeling un-ease, people push to make advancements, with the hope of making improvements to remove the un-ease. And while this works on one level (technological advancements obviously happen), it does not create peace. There’s always something else that comes up that does not feel good.

You also keep talking about the self and the false self. And if I’m not mistaken, you suggest creating a new self-image with the body? I guess I have to ask, would you consider giving it all up if that’s what it takes? Give up all the powers, give up all the ideas of who you think you are and who you think you should be? The real you is there all along after all. The real you is not the body with all its powers (or lack thereof). It’s not in the ideas or thoughts or experiences or ego. If you finally tire of the struggling, inquire within yourself who you are. And find that you can rest easy.
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#9 TVCasualty

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Posted 27 August 2021 - 03:08 PM


 

Can you send me the info of that tracker community?

 

 

https://www.trackerschool.com/


Edited by TVCasualty, 27 August 2021 - 03:08 PM.

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#10 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 27 August 2021 - 06:40 PM

The problem is that locationwise, I have to interact on a fairly regular basis. If it were all or nothing it would be easier. Again, the Social Ketosis metaphor... I've spent an extended period of time off grid in solo meditation; and it's no problem.... but this 'living in the world. not being of the world' thing is tough.

But.... say I am correct in my assessment, and say I do give up hope.... What's a life worth if there's no one to share it with?


It might sound corny but I found the answer to this question watching the movie, Into the wild.

I think social interaction is part of the food shelter water triangle of basic human needs.

Solitary confinement is one of the worst punishments we can muster up for those in a prison

DO WE NOT HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO REALIZE THAT THERE"S NO POINT (AND NO PLEASURE) IN CONTINUING TO AGREE TO PLAY THIS STUPID FUCKING GAME?!


The hopelessness thing well let me try to explain it better it feels like it slips through my own hands often. It's not to say to abandon all hope. Rather to acknowledge sometimes that we are powerless. Our grand fate tied to a gigantic ball of liquid metal blasting through the cosmos faster than we can comprehend. Sometimes we hope for big things and torture the mind when they fail to materialize. There is peace is simply accepting things as they are, instead of hoping for this or that. Constantly beating ourselves up with hope, I wish I was this or that, or that I have this or that, never truly letting ourselves be hopeless, if even for just a moment.

.... Aside from the conjecture though; just imagine being able to directly communicate the deliciousness of an apple with someone; in full sensory detail- no descriptions in the way , but a complete, non-compressed transference of experience..... This is what we've missed / are missing.
...


I have always felt difficulty in fully expressing my thoughts and ideas, however I am not sure I would like this.

Some now argue that technology is they key to this. Being able to able to make a digital form of telepathy, where we could communicate with one another on such a deeper level. I wonder about this sometimes though, as a person who has been accused of being brutally honest it doesn't always come off as a desirable trait. Perhaps allowing some deceit is actually helpful to our harmony.

But honestly I am a dude still fairly attached to his ego so what do I really know about any of this. I like reading your guys thoughts on it all either way

Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 27 August 2021 - 06:42 PM.

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#11 Severian

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Posted 28 August 2021 - 12:55 PM

DO WE NOT HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO REALIZE THAT THERE"S NO POINT (AND NO PLEASURE) IN CONTINUING TO AGREE TO PLAY THIS STUPID FUCKING GAME?!


The hopelessness thing well let me try to explain it better it feels like it slips through my own hands often. It's not to say to abandon all hope. Rather to acknowledge sometimes that we are powerless. Our grand fate tied to a gigantic ball of liquid metal blasting through the cosmos faster than we can comprehend. Sometimes we hope for big things and torture the mind when they fail to materialize. There is peace is simply accepting things as they are, instead of hoping for this or that. Constantly beating ourselves up with hope, I wish I was this or that, or that I have this or that, never truly letting ourselves be hopeless, if even for just a moment. 

 

 

 

That's a little bit of what I was trying to express here. If we can accept that it's hopeless; then maybe we can turn our energy and attention in a different direction.... but the irony is that it seems it's hopeless  for humanity ever coming to it's senses and agreeing that our current situation / path / lifestyle is hopeless.... Game is too attractive.

 

 

.... And, as far as peace goes; what looks like peace on one side of the coin on the opposite is docilility, apathy, passivity.....  We place far too much emphasis on "peace" and "happiness" and not enough on doing something truly worthy of our time here.... especially in the face of those who've done what they can to put us in this position of 'acceptance'.... 

 

 

 

As far as the technologists go; they're totally wrong.  The type of communion I'm talking about cannot be reduced to uploading our (already artificial) minds into computers. There is a physiological connection between us that exists on levels far beyond the capacity of our current-model normal-operating consciousness to perceive. Any attempts to 'digitalize' our very-totally-tangiblely-physical existence will result in a reduced, compressed, simplified, pixelated, distorted version of reality, in exactly the same way in which language does the same to any attempt to describe or communicate our experience.  Which, just like the rest of culture, serves it's primary purpose of cutting us off from our power- ouur bodies and our planet. 

 

'deeper levels' and 'digital' are totally incompatible. 

 

I wish I could explain it better, but it's clear that the type of communion I'm wishing I could express is something you're having difficulty imagining. Which isn't suprising; there's nothing in our literature or normal experiences that come close to implying it's existence- In no small part because the very basic paradigm underlying communication itself is predicated upon the idea of the sharing of information between separate individuals.   



#12 pharmer

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Posted 30 August 2021 - 06:14 PM

Pharmer, are those pteradactyls?

 

Darned if I know. More likely somebody's guess of what a small, flying dino might look like.

 

Sorry, I feel small for giving so incomplete an answer in such a well thought out and fleshed out thread :blush:



#13 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 31 August 2021 - 06:47 PM

 

In no small part because the very basic paradigm underlying communication itself is predicated upon the idea of the sharing of information between separate individuals. 

 

This is part of what they talk about with the nuralink system they are envisioning. A line I remember was the idea that if we linked up all our minds that we would become this new type of intelligence or whatever you want to call it. Our minds would morph into one singular being, after that the idea of then separating the said minds would be impossible.

 

Here's some food for thought, if a computer is composed of all earthly materials then what about it is not natural? The electricity that runs through it? Where does one draw the line for what is considered natural or unnatural? Is a bird nest unnatural? It is manufactured from components of this earth as well. Not sure I have a solid answer for this but I think its an interesting question to ponder



#14 Severian

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Posted 01 September 2021 - 09:35 AM

In no small part because the very basic paradigm underlying communication itself is predicated upon the idea of the sharing of information between separate individuals.


Here's some food for thought, if a computer is composed of all earthly materials then what about it is not natural?


A computer, or any technology, is more than just the physical materials that go into it's composition. It's also the process by which these materials are acquired and assembled.

Giant, open pit mines for rare-earth elements and third world assembly plants with suicide nets on the windows, and then the entire cities made of 'first world' electronic waste inhabited by those 'recycling' these materials in 55 gallon drums and being exposed to all of the toxins...

This, is clearly 'unnatural'. It's the mentality behind our technology that is the problem; and not technology itself. If we did not consider ourselves apart from nature, higher than it, then the technologies we use would not demonstrate our total lack of understanding that we are a part of the earth and dependent upon it.
Which is to say, if the only way to acquire the 'earthly materials' in order to build said electronic technology is by unsustainable, rapelike processes, then a natural-mindset would never think to develop them.

Further, because we have zero models for technologies, or sciences, based in a mindset that exists outside of our dominant, industrial-global electronic-digital technology paradigm; it's difficult, or perhaps impossible even, to imagine that a technology could be based on anything but the type of destructive, resource-extraction model we're familiar with.

And, no matter what the technocrazies state, it is impossible to use computers to reproduce consciousness. The map will never perfectly represent the territory, unless it is the size of the territory itself; something which is clearly an impossibility. Language is clearly a compression, a reduction; You could use an entire library to attempt to communicate 'Red'. Or, what about when the subtitles of a movie say [music playing in the background.] Come on.

The whole notion of the wonders of technology somehow saving us is absurd; just as absurd, and disempowering, as the victim mentality that's propagated by the major religions promise of some external savior-messaih; one without whom we're powerless to do anything.

Though, the Culture that conditions our minds is itself artificial; and has somehow managed to convince the majority of the population of it's authenticity; So, I suppose when I say that computers will never reproduce consciousness, I need to more explictly define 'consciousness.' The anxious, verbal, internal-narrative, never-stop commenting, insecure, dependent on continual ego stroking to maintain it's existence that is the default mode of being for pretty much the entire world at this point? It don't doubt that this can be eventually modeled completely within the linked hard-drives of some supercomputer farm. But just because the majority of the population has never experienced what actual Consciousness is, doesn't mean the superficial, artificial facade their sold is the real thing, any more than a cardboard cut out of a person could be synonymous with that person in the flesh.

Just because 'virtual reality' might eventually reach a high-enough definition to fool most people, in no way means it's been successful in 'reproducing a human mind' ; only that it's managed to produce a simulation believable enough to fool the majority of the the population.

I shouldn't need to point out that what we have come to accept as 'normal' is very much a far cry from 'natural' or 'healthy.'


The line between natural or unnatural is this.

Is it, Life affirming? Diversity encouraging? or is it Isolationist, growth at the expense of the world around it? Cancerous?

Edited by Severian, 01 September 2021 - 09:44 AM.


#15 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 01 September 2021 - 10:58 AM

Not a bad answer but Its hard to button that one down in my mind. One could argue that something like a plague of locust would fall under that definition of growth at the expense of the world around it, or a virus for that matter. Often with these discussion where the word consciousness comes into play I find it becomes a bit of a game of definition, and it is easy to lose one another in discussion based on how one seeks to define it. Personally I don't really have a good answer for it. I feel like we are missing too many pieces to the puzzle at this point it is hard to say anything for sure. Perhaps our continued understanding of effects superposition and observation on the quantum level can provide some more insight.

 

Personally I am not a big fan of the simulation theory but  for all we know we could be in one right now. There really is no way of telling, much like the idea that we could be a universe within a universe within a million other universes and we may never get to answer to that question. Or maybe it is all connected like cells that act as one giant cosmic organism, we couldn't recognize that anymore than the white blood cells floating around inside us

 

You got me wondering, earlier you mentioned progression and following things through on your journey well perhaps mankind is on that journey right now. Working towards an eventual technological evolution of some kind.  If I had to guess the earth and the cosmos have a few wrenches to throw in our grand plans for ascendance. As it likely has done over the millennia to all the different earth populations. Be it climate change, the big meteor or the violent shifting of some of those huge ass floating plates we live on

 

Regardless it looks like you have formed a path you want to walk down, all that seems left is actually walking down it



#16 Severian

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Posted 01 September 2021 - 01:01 PM

Wasn't looking for this specifically, but here are some words that specifically address the 'artificial' mentality I was describing above

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/25/reproduction-without-pregnancy-emancipate-wom
en-artificial-wombs
There is a belief among certain feminists that they are victims of ecological fascism. Even Camille Paglia, whom I
generally admire, gives it credence:
I maintain that our true oppressor is not society but nature, which in its fascist ecology has imposed biological
gender upon us at birth. . . . Why is it necessary to solidify and literalize one's mercurial, ever-evolving identity in
the frail envelope of the flesh? - which all the major world religions have rightly described as an illusion destined to
decay and vanish. No one is completely satisfied with his or her body, which will inevitably betray us anyhow as we
slide toward death. . . . Against Nature: that is the argument of my book.
Paglia is hardly alone in this hatred of Earth and the ecological limits that have been placed on all life forms here . . .
and really, if her position is contemplated at all, a hatred of the body for its continuing impacts on the (apparently
non-physical) mind and self.
It is an expression, in its bleakest form, of the mind/body dualistic split. This sort of thinking has gained
tremendous momentum the past half century; it’s integral to the transhumanist movement and core to the long term
christian and scientific hatred of nature which believes that nature is inherently dangerous and must be brought under
human control. Irrespective of its particular partisans, whether feminists, or scientists, or christians, or techno-
utopianists, the underlying beliefs have the same origin: hatred of Earth, rage against ecologically imposed biological
limitations. It is headed no place good.
Sasha Isaac, in her piece for Aeon Magazine (“Is artificial-womb technology a tool for womens
liberation?”), comments that while some women love the idea of pregnancy and carrying and sustaining a child
within themothers find themselves recoiling in horror at the physical demands of carrying and sustaining a child in
their womb, and even more at the potential brutality of giving birth . . . [they] assume a far less forgiving view of the
process, likening It toshitting a pumpkin.”4
For [writer Shulaminth] Firestone, artificial wombs would eliminate a crucial condition that currently ensures
women’s oppression by neutralizing the heavily gendered process of reproduction. Though there exist indisputable
biological differences between the sexes, she argued that this difference becomes oppressive in the unfair division of
reproductive labor and its naturalization through the ideal of the nuclear family. But it foetusus were to develop in
artificial wombs, women would finally be free to pursue their interests and desires outside their reproductive duties.
This is a psychological orientation that people are meant to grow out of during the terrible twos of their second year
of life and to face and mature out of once more during the rage of their adolescent years. We are meant to have limits
placed upon us. How we deal with them is the measure of our character. And there are no more important limits than
the ecological. Split gender physiology is a Gaian innovation of extremely long duration. It has a specific ecological
function that is integral to life on this planet, to the continuation of everything we love here. Death, too, is just as
crucial. Death is built into the system for a reason. Without it, there would be no life, no Earth, no plants, no new
generations.
These two dynamics are root to the continuation of life on this planet. But those who attempt to surmount
these limitations, at root, hate future generations, hate all life. For they put their own desires as paramount over all
other realities. It is this hatred of ecological limits and realities, along with the belief that it is possible for us, our
species, to exist outside them, to, in essence, destroy any capacity of those limits to affect us, that lie at the root of
most of our ecological troubles.
The psychological underpinnings of those movements (and the people who promulgate them) are quite
different than the orientation that Baudelaire captures in these words of his . . .
The Natural world is a spiritual house, where the pillars, that are alive
Let slip at times some strangely garbled words
Man walks there through forests of physical things that are also spiritual things
That watch him with affectionate looks. 5
Which one will bring us a world that we want ourselves and our children and their children to live in?



#17 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:22 AM

One thing seems sure to me ,the future is going to be weird. Perhaps I am being a bit disingenuous in my speech as I would agree with most of your assessments on  the benefits of pursuing what we would perceive as natural over unnatural. I have a personal connection to nature and even in its weakened state I would feel naked without it.

 

Perhaps in another few hundred years those will be the factions fighting for dominance, the trans humanists cybernetic folk and the one's that outright refuse to have their bodies manipulated by science, a big pendulum swing in the other way where a supreme distrust of all things technological will arise.

 

Part of me thinks mankind has walked down this path a few times before, the growing reliance on technology creating a pitfall for civilization when the technology collapses. Sending us back to the stone age but leaving the tales of caution. What if the reference to the tree of knowledge and the snake was actually a metaphor for this mechanism. Our reliance on technology eventually being our undoing.



#18 TVCasualty

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Posted 03 September 2021 - 01:12 PM

The concept of "ecological fascism" as something nature is doing to us is pretty funny to me. So is the idea that the abstract construct of "fairness" has anything to do with how nature works.
 

For [writer Shulaminth] Firestone, artificial wombs would eliminate a crucial condition that currently ensures
women’s oppression by neutralizing the heavily gendered process of reproduction. Though there exist indisputable
biological differences between the sexes, she argued that this difference becomes oppressive in the unfair division of
reproductive labor and its naturalization through the ideal of the nuclear family. But it foetusus were to develop in
artificial wombs, women would finally be free to pursue their interests and desires outside their reproductive duties.



How dare nature oppress us by doing all the stuff that's required for us to exist!

It's not fair that nature made me a water-junkie, totally addicted to the stuff and subject to severe withdrawal symptoms if I go even two days without any! Imagine how much more stupid shit I could get done if I could break free of the water addiction nature has shackled me with!

And the only reason why "women" (aka human females) are so unfairly burdened by the demands of pregnancy and childbirth is because we had to call the half of our species that gets pregnant and gives birth SOMEthing; nature didn't pick half of our species to bear children because nature is misogynistic or whatever the heck nature's problem is. And the social construct of the nuclear family doesn't cause the unfair division of reproductive labor ffs since nuke-families are a recent construct (that do normalize plenty of of problematic crap) while arguably-unfair division of reproductive labor has been going on a wee bit longer.


A lot of our weird ideas about nature seem to be a function of our being human, and one of the defining characteristics of being human is living inside our models of reality (in our head) rather than entirely through direct, tangible, and physical interactions with reality as dictated by physics and chemistry. If we strip our abstract models away then nature and Evolution in particular are just a means of propagating DNA. Complex life forms (e.g. animals) are then merely the means by which DNA has most efficiently managed to accomplish this.

If we consider ourselves to be mobile DNA propagation machines then concepts of "fairness" or oppression or meaning or any other abstract concerns or notions about life are rendered moot. DNA doesn't give a shit about our families or careers, or if we find our time on Earth "meaningful." From nature's perspective if we don't produce viable offspring them we're Evolutionary dead-ends whose existence has no purpose. I say this as someone who is not going to be producing any viable offspring, most likely. Good thing I live in my head, then!

And sure, inventing an artificial womb would free women from the ordeal of pregnancy but if anyone tries it I imagine we'd soon learn what pieces of the puzzle of creating a whole new person we missed in developing one.

It's also getting interesting to ponder the implications of how Evolution is going to resolve the conflict between the increasing size of our heads relative to our bodies and the decreasing space available for squeezing babies out of wombs:
 

Human childbirth is a relatively painful and dangerous process, due largely to the "obstetrical dilemma."

The obstetrical dilemma describes how human infants have big heads, but their mothers have relatively small birth canals and pelvic floors.

The new study found that having a smaller pelvic floor helps maintain the integrity of women's organs, even though it makes childbirth difficult.

https://bigthink.com...ldbirth-painful


I guess it's possible that our species could become entirely dependent upon technology to continue to exist at all, which for most of us is already the case; all it would take to kill most of us is to drop us off in the wilderness (that we came from!) for a week without any industrially manufactured technology, so why not go all the way? If we do then I suppose we'll find out.


Edited by TVCasualty, 03 September 2021 - 01:16 PM.

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#19 Severian

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Posted 04 September 2021 - 11:46 AM

The concept of "ecological fascism" as something nature is doing to us is pretty funny to me. So is the idea that the abstract construct of "fairness" has anything to do with how nature works.
 

 

 

 

 

Agree totally with everything you said. My jaw dropped to the floor when I what I quoted above; it's a perfect example of the trend I was describing. 

 

And, RE: 'the unfair division of reproductive labor' ; I'm certain PLENTY of women would agree that ability to give birth, to bring life into this world, is itself a gift. Plus as an added bonus, there's the whole fact of multiple orgasms....

 

And another example of 'mankinds' shortnselective memory.

 

I mean, it wasn't too long ago that the High-Priests determined that breastfeeding was obsolete and unnecessary; because they couldn't find anything 'special' in breast milk that couldn't be synthesized and produced in a factory somewhere. (Apparently absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence doesn't apply to 'S'cience). Only took a few decades before they realized; Woops! Turns out an infant child does need to be held and breastfed by their mothers!  Who knew?!

 

The idea that babies don't need to be grown in their mothers is just... I mean, I throw up my hands at this point. Really? Is this really something people are seriously considering?

 

 

 

 

 

As far as cranial volume vs. pelvic size.

 

I've done a rather fair bit of research on the topic; and this is less of an issue then it might seem.  (one book I especially enjoyed was 'Sex, time and power; how female sexuality shaped human evolution)

 

Here's a solid article talking about various hypotheses for this. https://usfblogs.usf...ains-shrinking/ (There's some information I feel is more speculation, seems like par-for-the-course for the ivory tower establishment to come up with any possible theory that can explain away any evidence that man might not be the pinnacle of intelligence....  like when they talk about bigger brains not necessarily meaning more intelligence because of 'iq' scaling; but a great articile none the less. )

 

Human cranial capacity was expanding at a rather rapid clip, starting some 600,000 years ago, all the way up to around 60,000 years ago; at which point the explosion of brain size ceased; and then, began decreasing at an astonishing rate, which coincided with with the advent of agriculture.

 

Though, it's my own personal hypothesis that the initial slow-down / plateauing of human brain size stopped due to the proliferation of 'Representational Language 1.0".

 

Regardless; Human's have not been 'evolving' physiologically in the last 5000 years; not in the way that we were pre-civilization; Or, we are, but rather we're physiologically adapting to our artificial culture... Social darwinism; Which takes place at the expense of our 'physiological' evolution. (or at least, at the rate at which we we're running up the double spiral staircase)

 

 

Domestication of species is linked to decreased brain size. We have seen it in the 30 or so animals that have been domesticated.

 

 

 

What Geary found was that as human societies’ population densities started to increase, cranial size decreased. Around 15-10,000 years ago he saw a 3-4% drop in EQ worldwide.

 

So we don't have much to worry about human brain size increasing beyond the (current) capacity of female pelvic size; If anything, human cranial capacity is still shrinking.  there are a number of things pointing to the correctness of this hypothesis

 

1. I read a study done in eastern Europe a number of years ago, where they showed that humans are losing 1% of our perceptual capacity per year.

 

2. Looking at the brain-volumes of world-class athletes ( Ie, olympic gold medalists) vs normies; it's been shown that theres a sizable increase in grey matter volume, among many other areas; I looked into this under the assumption that those who are in what we could rightly consider 'peak' physical condition, would be closer to the 'norm' found in pre-civilized peoples; thus the hypothesis that these people would show a brain-structure closer to what we might be a more accurate pre-cultural picture. 

 

 

 

Scientists say that “As a general rule…The more meat on your bones the more brain you need to control massive muscle blocks” (Stringer).

 

We're talking 'meat' here, not fat. (the more fat, the more estrogen, the less testosterone btw)

 

 

3. The brain has evolved to operate and interact directly with an external, natural world; all flight-fight-instinctual responses having developed in this. As such, we can see that the amount of 'space'/ability the brain possesses to say, store memory; is designed to operate in 'physicality'. Which is to say, that the brains ability to remember spatial information is far  far greater than it's ability to memorize abstract information; one of the reasons why the whole 'memory palace' technique is so effective (necessary even) to remembering large chunks of abstract information. 

            

4. Children who spend a considerable amount of time screen-face have retarded development, coordination etc; because the amount of light-information coming to them from the backlit screen is nothing in comparsion to that reflected light coming from interacting and participating in the external world. 

 

            The idea being here that the brain has developed (and thus, is preconditioned to continue developing) in a direct, two way interaction with the external world. Which means, that in regards to physiological brain-growth, direct-participation with the body and the external environment (running, looking, rockclimbing, hunting whatever) is going to recieve a +10 experience points, whereas, reading history books or watching tik tok videos is going to get a +1. (maybe).  

 

And then 5. The general trend towards diets that lead towards nutritional deficiencies; due to lack of vitamins and minerals in both food choices and soil content. 


Edited by Severian, 04 September 2021 - 11:48 AM.

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#20 FLASHINGROOSTER

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Posted 05 September 2021 - 11:55 AM

Reminds me of that WallE movie.

 

post-160704-0-31689200-1630860964.jpg

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • wall-e-disneyscreencaps.com-4798-1024x429.jpg

Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 05 September 2021 - 12:01 PM.





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