Edited by tregar, 02 September 2021 - 10:36 AM.
Oral tetrahydroharmine + sublingual hpbcd dmt journeys, very similar to mescaline
Posted 02 September 2021 - 10:32 AM
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Posted 02 September 2021 - 10:34 AM
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Posted 04 September 2021 - 09:20 AM
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Posted 05 September 2021 - 01:52 PM
Thank you Sidestreet and Yoshitrainer.
You cant compare sublingual or oral either..20-30mg sublingual is enough to activate sublingual DMT and cause effects on it's own. 20mg sublingual is probably comparable to 200mg oral.
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Posted 06 September 2021 - 07:35 AM
Thanks Sidestreet, Yoshitrainer, dead head jed.
Questions asked and answers:
So THH may prolong the half-life of DMT by blocking it's intraneuronal uptake. Does it also increase its strength?
Without THH the DMT visuals are weaker (darker colored and less interesting).
Have you tried sublingual HPBCD DMT without THH? If so could you explain the difference?
THH adds more potent visuals, music and beauty enhancement, mescaline euphoria, longer duration.
Is there a difference between sublingual Harmine (freebase or HCL) and sublingual Harmine complexed with HPBCD?
Complexed harmine helps masks the taste and helps freebase harmine to absorb better.
Is there a deeper layer to the subl DMT + THH experience, or is it "just" a prolonged DMT vape session?
It gives an identical effects as high dose of cactus tea, infinitely beautiful, brilliantly penetrating and no sedation.
Why do you choose to take the THH orally instead of sublingually?
I take the THH always orally because it causes zero nausea, zero dizziness, zero anxiety, it is like water to me, completely inert, extremely cheap to make yourself, around 25 cents per 300mg dose. It's personal preference, you can use it sublingually if you want, but I never have, you are on your own experimenting there.
Why tax your sublingual mucosa with more than it needs to handle? The 20mg sublingual HPBCD harmine + 90 to 100mg sublingual HPBCD DMT already eats up 15 minutes of time absorbing, although much of the time I have had it all absorb in 10 to 12 minutes. Studies with sublingual Viagra attached on paper #1 on post #1 showed even 100mg doses absorbed just fine, which is around the combined dosage of ingredients we are using.
THH has a 10.5 hour half life with peak at 5.25 hours, so yes, you need only take it once in a capsule, it lasts all evening, for example, in journey #1 in post #3, I took it at 5pm, and was still having closed eye THH visions when I closed my eyes and laid in bed from 11pm to 1am in the morning, for 2 hours I viewed Egyptian scenery, Spain cliffs, walkways by the ocean, beautiful woman who showed me artwork in her hand, Egyptian thoth with the head of a bird, I could go on for pages, hundreds of visions.
THH is in the same family as ibogaine, these beta carbolines cause closed eye dream-like visions in monochrome for many, many hours, even some 6 hours after I took it. The remnants of the still working DMT I took earlier in the evening (two 110mg x re-doses) was still able to "color" the normally monochrome way beyond 4k THH generated teaching visions, even from 11pm to 1am.
For example, the beautiful woman I saw holding the artwork had colored fingernails, the Egyptian woman wearing the makeup, which apparently was a common vanity thing even back then, was just beautiful, all the different shades stood out, and her hair and gown were flowing. The Egyptian thoth had multicolored head & beak just like a bird.
There were hundreds of static and animated visions for the 2 hours I meditated and closed my eyes in bed, and they were gently colored by the DMT. I would need a tape recorder going as I lay in bed in order to speak into it to record all the visions. This is what Benny Shanon used to do when he recorded the visions for his book "Antipodes of the Mind" as there are so many that just go on and on for hours.
The 10-12 drops of water.. Drop volume is pipette size dependent. What happens if you add too much or little water to the mix?
Is the amount of water the minimum required to dissolve the substances? Adding more will make it more difficult to place under the tongue? What happens when you evaporate the water after complexing? Will the DMT - HPBCD bond break again? Making it not water soluble anymore?
I have noticed that keeping the drops of water at 10 drops used for 90mg and below DMT, and 12 drops used for 110mg of DMT and above to work well. HPBCD can hold 1000mg per 1ml at room temp, 1ml = 20 drops, 0.5ml is 10 drops. So 10 drops (0.5ml) can easily hold 500mg alkaloids, however, this amount is doubled with hot water, so 10 drops of hot water can easily hold nearly 1000mg HPBCD complexed alkaloids. So when I use 12 drops hot water to hold 110mg dmt complexed to 770mg HPBCD, it holds just fine.
Yes, adding more water beyond 12 drops makes it more difficult to hold under tongue, whereas 10 to 12 drops is very comfortable. If at any time you feel the need to get rid of any saliva before the 15 minutes is over, simply tilt head forward and relieve the built up salvia into a cup while still holding any remaining HPBCD DMT under tongue, it won't go anywhere.
The sting can be mild to moderate, it does not bother me at all, as it is so worth the effects, and it teaches one how to remain silent and meditate for a while.
I have not been able to evaporate off the water, as it is a sticky complex already, it just becomes super sticky the more the water evaporates off, to the point where it will not form a solid, but a flat sticky entity that flows over the surface of the whole spoon if left out long enough.
I realize this sublingual method is not for everyone, and that is why the spoon full of HPBCD DMT can just simply be added to a 1oz hot tea with 150mg to 300mg THH added and from 140 to 180mg harmine added, a bit of crushed vit c to dissolve the harmalas, mixed well and drank all at the same time.
I just prefer the sublingual method as there is none of the typical heaviness of an Ayahuasca brew, which comes from the oral harmine, and I can re-dose more sublingually every 1.5 hour without having to take additional oral harmine + HPBCD DMT tea. I'm already not a big fan of harmine orally, so having to redose more of it orally is not my favorite. But others won't be bothered.
Just as Jonathan Ott reports, the oral or sublingual dose is about half the potency of inhaled smoke vapor. The sublingual HPBCD DMT dose comes on in only half the time of oral DMT (22 minutes instead of 45 minutes) but still lasts as long as an oral dose (90 minutes).
What happens if you don't take any THH, but increase the dose of complexed DMT and Harmine? Will the visuals stay dull? If not I don't mind the shorter duration. 45 min of vape intensity sound more than enough.Yes, the visuals still stay dull. There will still be no euphoria, music enhancement, stimulation, no THH generated imagery for the DMT to color. The THH makes a major difference, adding it will make the experience similar to a mescaline experience, remember DMT does not block serotonin on it's own, but requires THH to do this...important teamwork. Ibogaine, mescaline, LSD, shrooms, 5-meo-dmt, bufotenine in Amazonian stuff which combine with DMT for a 3 hour snuff experience, all block serotonin, shutting down the day-to-day survival filters so that infinite mind can manifest in combo with the DMT. Receptorome chart on part I of paper explains this.
See the report from James Oroc below who combined smoked DMT with smoked 5-meo-dmt (which blocks serotonin), this is same thing the THH does, the dull visions then become overwhelming artistry as well:
DMT + tiny amounts of 5-meo-dmt [perhaps similar theoretically to Amazonian snuffs which have a makeup of 7.4% bufotenin (potent 5-ht1a agonist), 0.04% 5-MeO-DMT (potent 5-ht1a agonist) & 0.16% DMT (poor potency as 5-ht1a agonist):
James Oroc, Tryptamine Palace:
As an experiment (and in a foreign land) I smoked the last of the Bufo alvarius venom (the story of whose collection is described within the pages of Tryptamine Palace) with some ‘regular’ DMT (extracted from Jurema Preta.). In the vast majority of my early nigerine (DMT) experiences, I encountered visual fields of ‘dots’ that would come together to form images, much like the pointillism style of painting developed by Georges Seurat or the Australian Aboriginal song-line paintings.
With the addition of the 5-MeO-DMT containing toad-venom to the DMT however, the visual characteristic was completely different and totally unique to my experiences so far. On this occasion there was a complete lack of ‘dots’ or ‘points’ of any kind, the fine lines of the constantly changing imagery were like those painted with a single-hair brush on Tibetan thangkas and due to the overwhelming artistry of what I was seeing, I could only think of the vaulted ceiling of the Sistine Chapel in comparison.
Sistene Chapel: This was without a doubt the most ‘visionary’ experience I have ever been fortunate enough to encounter and I lay there with my eyes shut watching the most fantastic parade of the Collective Unconsciousness imaginable, wishing that it would never end, and as I sit here now I can not even describe one tiny corner of it, since every image in the multitude of imagery was in such constant motion that they defied all but a glimpse. And then moments later, like a tent collapsing when its ropes are cut, the vision is gone. Leaving only a struggle of words to explain it, since nothing before or after has come close to this experiences visual majesty.
To what ratio should you complex freebase Harmine to?
Also 1:1 molar weight? Which is?
Harmine to HPBCD gram ratio:
HPBCD = Hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin
2-HPBCD = 2-hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin
Note: Molecular weight of harmine = 212g/mol, plain HPBCD molecular weight = 1300g/mol, therefore use a 1:6g weight ratio in order to keep a 1:1 molar ratio. 2-HPBCD = 1500g/mol, therefore use a 1:7g weight ratio in order to keep a 1:1 molar ratio.
Note: Molecular weight of DMT = 188g/mol, plain HPBCD molecular weight = 1300g/mol, therefore, use a 1:7g weight ratio in order to keep a 1:1 molar ratio. 2-HPBCD = 1500g/mol, therefore use a 1:8g weight ratio in order to keep a 1:1 molar ratio.
What's the difference between HPBCD and 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin?
Isn't this the same substance? The abbreviation for 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin is HP-β-CD, aka: HPBCD, correct?
Myself and downwardsfromzero covered this at length in part I paper. Basically, they are both the same thing, either one will work just fine. 2-hydroxy is just more able to hold propyl molecules better. I have both forms, and have used them interchangeably. I have even read many chemical suppliers refer to them as basically the same thing as well.
Pic: Alex Garant's artwork will have you seeing double, ibogaine and tetrahydroharmine are in the same betacarboline family.
Posted 09 September 2021 - 02:57 PM
Posted 12 September 2021 - 11:08 AM
Thus, tetrahydroharmine may prolong the half-life of DMT by blocking it's intraneuronal uptake, and hence, its inactivation by MAO, localized in mitochondria within the neuron.
You can't compare sublingual or oral either..20-30mg sublingual harmine is enough to activate sublingual DMT and cause effects on it's own. 20mg sublingual is probably comparable to 200mg oral.
"many drugs are much more potent taken sublingually""this route translates the chemical directly to the brain, where most psychoactives act."
Edited by tregar, 12 September 2021 - 02:53 PM.
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Posted 13 September 2021 - 07:37 AM
Posted 15 September 2021 - 08:27 AM
Posted 15 September 2021 - 02:33 PM
Edited by tregar, 15 September 2021 - 04:26 PM.
Posted 16 September 2021 - 04:21 PM
Edited by tregar, 16 September 2021 - 06:57 PM.
Posted 18 September 2021 - 12:22 PM
Posted 18 September 2021 - 07:35 PM
This combined with the HPBCD complexation results (which we really ought to replicate and confirm) makes me wonder whether there are saccharides in leaf brews which perform a similar effect to HPBCD. There is still so much scope for really interesting research here - thanks for posting.
Edited by tregar, 18 September 2021 - 07:48 PM.
Posted Yesterday, 09:55 AM
Cross posting this to your various threads on HPBCD. I am very curious to know if anyone that has used HPBCD has noticed any hearing loss type issues?
In doing more research, it seems quite well documented that HPBCD is in fact toxic to humans (as well as rodents). It's an oddly specific and narrow toxicity, it kills cochlear hairs causing hearing damage.
See: Cyclodextrins and Iatrogenic Hearing Loss: New Drugs with Significant Risk.
"use of HPβCD has been linked to significant hearing loss in several species, including humans. Evidence in mice supports a rapid onset of hearing loss that is dose-dependent. Ototoxicity can occur following central or peripheral drug delivery, with either route resulting in the preferential loss of cochlear outer hair cells (OHCs) within hours of dosing. Inner hair cells and spiral ganglion cells are spared at doses that cause ~85% OHC loss; additionally, no other major organ systems appear adversely affected. Evidence from a first-to-human phase 1 clinical trial mirrors animal studies to a large extent, indicating rapid onset and involvement of OHCs. All patients in the trial experienced some permanent hearing loss, although a temporary loss of function can be observed acutely following drug delivery. The long-term impact of HPβCD use as a maintenance drug, and the mechanism(s) of ototoxicity, are unknown."
There are even some reports of hearing damage in the reviews of the HPβCD products sold on Amazon (despite said products being described as "non-toxic" ). This is potentially extremely important information for people to know before using HPβCD. Many doctors will test your hearing at an annual physical, it would be nice to know if anyone experimenting with HPBCD has had their hearing tested.
Crumling MA, King KA, Duncan RK. Cyclodextrins and Iatrogenic Hearing Loss: New Drugs with Significant Risk. Front Cell Neurosci. 2017 Nov 8;11:355. doi: 10.3389/fncel.2017.00355. PMID: 29163061; PMCID: PMC5676048.
Hearing loss issue is also mentioned by a doctor here:
Edited by GordoTEK, Yesterday, 10:01 AM.
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Posted Yesterday, 02:07 PM
Yes, I have read many studies, Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Cyclodextrin has been linked to some studies in mice at very high doses of 8000 mg/kg s.c. We are not using doses anywhere near that here. I have used HPBCD complexed to pro-hormones for years when pro-hormones were legal and never had any side effects at low level like we are using. Patrick Arnold is the chemist who created hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin complexed diols such as Cyclo-Diol and Cyclo-Nordiol and sold them for nearly 10 years thru his company ERGOPHARM, never any complaints of hearing loss. See part 5 of my paper on his story and bloodwork results. I've used the stuff over 44 times now if you include the number of times I've re-dosed in an evening = 3 total doses for an evening. Had my hearing checked earlier this month as I wanted to see myself if any problems with the low doses I have been using, no different than years ago. If you are concerned, then simply don't use it. Proceed with caution. Use aloe vera gel or leaf instead, or even chitosan, many alternatives, see paper above: File Attachment(s): "Pharmaceutics drug bioavailability enhancing agents", example: Aloe vera gel caused a 3.7 fold increase in the bioavailability of vitamin C in comparison to control (vitamin C administered in water).
Posted Today, 06:46 AM
Edited by tregar, Today, 08:24 AM.
Posted Today, 09:46 AM