Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

The Underground HIstory of American Education and John Taylor Gatto Primer


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 August West

August West

    Mycotopiate

  • OG VIP
  • 4,163 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 07 September 2021 - 01:15 AM

 

A bump of sorts. A 15 video link to a video series "primer" from John Taylor Gatto's writings. Including snippets from his epic book, The American History of Underground Education. The primer was put together by Brett Veinotte, who, after 12 years (get it?) of putting valuable content out to the world via the School Sucks Project, is moving on to other endeavors.

 

Veinotte narrates these videos, all of which are Gatto's words. He also, rather wonderfully imo, chose and edited the video content to bring Gatto's words "to life". Whether from The Underground History..., or from his op-ed resignation letter following multiple NY state and city "Teacher of the Year" awards these are Gatto's thoughts on "education". 

 

I have multiple Gatto threads at 'topia if any interest is sparked. Now seems as good a time as ever to consider how we are being schooled. How we may be influenced to come to the conclusions we come to.


Edited by August West, 07 September 2021 - 01:24 AM.

  • TVCasualty, Myc and Moonless like this

#2 TVCasualty

TVCasualty

    Embrace Your Damage

  • Moderator
  • 14,786 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 07 September 2021 - 07:39 AM

This photo reminds me of school:

 

CHILDHAVEN.jpg

 

It's a Juvenile Detention Center in Nevada, though the actual "Haven" where Clarke County (Las Vegas) houses the incarcerated underage sex trafficking victims they arrest is a building just out of frame (but in the same complex). So the juvenile "Justice" system is apparently designed by the same sociopathic idiots who designed the U.S. public "school" system.

 

The abysmal state of education strikes me as a problem that will take more time than we have available to solve since it requires well-educated people to tackle it and we don't have enough people like that thanks to the very problem that we need them to solve.

 

So a terrible education system probably acts like weather in the sense that the hottest or coldest days of the year don't occur on the longest or shortest days of the year (because of the thermal inertia in the case of weather, and social inertia in the context of knowledge).

 

That means the explosion of willful, staggering ignorance we're seeing now reflects the state of public education 10 years ago, more or less (the High School graduates from ~2010 are now the parents going insane at School Board meetings, etc.). And public education probably didn't bottom-out ten years ago so freedumb will probably get a whole lot freedumber before there's a chance to reverse the trend, assuming it's actually possible (which I doubt because there are far too many ignorant morons in positions of significant power and influence).


  • Myc and Moonless like this

#3 FLASHINGROOSTER

FLASHINGROOSTER

    Semi-Pro Taco Robot

  • Black VIP
  • 3,027 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 07 September 2021 - 10:41 AM

The level of choice seems to be boiled down to a conservative or liberal leaning post secondary education. What a choice. It would be a nice world if parents were able to choose what is taught to their children a little more closely.

 

Conformity seems to be one of the bigger levers out there.

 

As a guy who tends to be most comfortable standing right outside of the conformity bubble, I have to admit conformity does have its advantages. I mean at some point we have to accept a level of conformity or it would be outright chaos out there. Like say if every child or parent decided they were going to make their own language, things would get real confusing real fast. Or if electricians started making up their own symbols for drawings, ect..  We have to find a balance while accepting that certain levels of conformity are necessary for us

 

I know a guy who was home-schooled and he regrets not being in the conformity. He said it made social interaction difficult for him as and adult. He had to learn all that stuff we did when we were thirteen. You need that time to learn how to deal with other people. It is probably the most important aspects of early school, learning how to socialize.

 

As a childless degenerate I am out of my element here so I ask

 

Is it fair to say that parents have shucked off much of the responsibility of what their children learn to the education system?

 

Any system tends to be bureaucratic and ineffective in its task,  but we are always going to have controversy in what should be taught to students so if one wants to break that mold they should do it themselves no. I think its hard to find common ground on what is acceptable to teach so we get this luke warm compromise.

 

No offense to city kids but we tend to avoid hiring them because their physical skills are seriously lacking. We now have eighteen year olds that have mastered the Iphone instead of the tape measure and the hammer.

 

Which set of those skills do we think is going to build a better future.  I know I will ask twitter


  • ElPirana likes this

#4 ElPirana

ElPirana

    Mycotopiate

  • Gold VIP
  • 965 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 07 September 2021 - 12:35 PM

Is it fair to say that parents have shucked off much of the responsibility of what their children learn to the education system?

Sorry Rooster, that’s not entirely fair.

Some people don’t have the knowledge, skill or temperament to teach. That’s not necessarily the fault of those people, it’s just the way it is. For them, public schools are a better choice.

Then you’ve got people like my sister. She pulled her daughter out of public school and home-schooled for several years with disastrous results. She eventually put her daughter back into school at high-school age. My niece has since dropped out of school to go for a GED. From a safe distance we could see all sorts of problems along the way, and my niece has to suffer the consequences of my sister’s poor choices.

Edit: I was just thinking about this again, some people’s financial situation don’t easily allow home-schooling. I can think of a lot of single-parent families whose only parent must work in order to survive. No shortage of those I’m sure.

Edited by ElPirana, 07 September 2021 - 01:10 PM.

  • Juthro, Moonless and FLASHINGROOSTER like this

#5 Moonless

Moonless

    Mycotopiate

  • Black VIP
  • 919 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 07 September 2021 - 07:15 PM

A lot of it has to do with class. If your in a rich area you will get to go to a nice school, poor area you are stuck at a 'bad school' that on paper receives more funding but in reality the poor school is older, has less facilities and most of the money goes to feeding the kids.

 

Education is a state by state basis. Where I'm at education is all about the money, and to get that money you need to have high attendance. This creates a situation where schools will do anything to get that attendance up. Also sometimes charter and private schools do more harm than good to the public school system because they don't play by the same rules but get the funding from the same source.

 

If what you say is true TV it will be really fascinating to see what this batch of HS students will be like as adults. Fuck the mother fuckers who go to school boards and wild out.



#6 Moonless

Moonless

    Mycotopiate

  • Black VIP
  • 919 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 07 September 2021 - 07:19 PM

I was just thinking about this again, some people’s financial situation don’t easily allow home-schooling. I can think of a lot of single-parent families whose only parent must work in order to survive. No shortage of those I’m sure.

COVID fucked everything up. Many kids failed upward. After talking to teachers they say that the students were under too much stress. Lose of income, taking care of siblings, working, stuck at home. It became a big class issue where poor kids failed because they had a bunch of stress put on them and rich kids fared better because they went through less and different trauma.



#7 August West

August West

    Mycotopiate

  • OG VIP
  • 4,163 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 08 September 2021 - 12:44 AM

 

Is it fair to say that parents have shucked off much of the responsibility of what their children learn to the education system?

Sorry Rooster, that’s not entirely fair.

Some people don’t have the knowledge, skill or temperament to teach. That’s not necessarily the fault of those people, it’s just the way it is. For them, public schools are a better choice.

Then you’ve got people like my sister. She pulled her daughter out of public school and home-schooled for several years with disastrous results. She eventually put her daughter back into school at high-school age. My niece has since dropped out of school to go for a GED. From a safe distance we could see all sorts of problems along the way, and my niece has to suffer the consequences of my sister’s poor choices.

 

 

I agree it's not entirely fair. There are however many parents who have indeed taken this position, whether consciously or not. In many ways, it's difficult to blame them. They went through the same schooling system. There are a great many people who are pushed to the ends of every waking day to pay bills, etc. What a fortunate boon for the school system to have clients in such dire circumstances.  If COVID has shown anything it's that schooling has become defacto child care. Parents need it in order to work, in order to pay their taxes in order to send their children to school. It is as water is to fish. And schools want the children earlier and earlier to have more time with impressionable minds. Oh to have 15k hours to mold young minds. 

 

As per the anecdote, there are of course, countless stories of perfectly well-rounded, successful home educated children, as well. Though there will never be as many anecdotes about them, based strictly on numbers. There will also always be, magnitudes more anecdotes of children fucked up by government schools

 

 

A lot of it has to do with class. If your in a rich area you will get to go to a nice school, poor area you are stuck at a 'bad school' that on paper receives more funding but in reality the poor school is older, has less facilities and most of the money goes to feeding the kids.

 

Education is a state by state basis. Where I'm at education is all about the money, and to get that money you need to have high attendance. This creates a situation where schools will do anything to get that attendance up. Also sometimes charter and private schools do more harm than good to the public school system because they don't play by the same rules but get the funding from the same source.

 

If what you say is true TV it will be really fascinating to see what this batch of HS students will be like as adults. Fuck the mother fuckers who go to school boards and wild out.

 

The school system "fails", whether during a pandemic or by design because it's slow, unimaginative and incapable of making change. Everyone is waiting for the hierarchy to make their decisions for them. It doesn't attract imaginative, creative employees because it doesn't encourage them and doesn't want them. Entrepreneurs need not apply. If my memory serves, the average cost of a student to go to government school in my state is about $15k per year. I suspect that, adjusted for cost of living, that remains roughly consistent. That seems like an entirely reasonable sum for a very good education. Yet the common refrain remains, "We need more money, then we'd do better". 

 

Poor children have benefited from a decent education, administered by a great educator just as affluent kids have had shitty educators (likely more than they have had good ones) providing shitty education.

 

 

I was just thinking about this again, some people’s financial situation don’t easily allow home-schooling. I can think of a lot of single-parent families whose only parent must work in order to survive. No shortage of those I’m sure.

COVID fucked everything up. Many kids failed upward. After talking to teachers they say that the students were under too much stress. Lose of income, taking care of siblings, working, stuck at home. It became a big class issue where poor kids failed because they had a bunch of stress put on them and rich kids fared better because they went through less and different trauma.

 

 

Of course, the terminal failings of the government school system long preceded COVID. It's done a fine job of fucking itself up without very much help. Kids have been "failing upwards" for a long time. Though the recent stress and hardship have certainly not done any favors to children, thanks in no small part to the unwillingness of the school system to follow science, things have been made much worse than they may have otherwise been.


  • ElPirana and FLASHINGROOSTER like this

#8 ElPirana

ElPirana

    Mycotopiate

  • Gold VIP
  • 965 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 08 September 2021 - 06:58 AM

I agree it's not entirely fair. There are however many parents who have indeed taken this position, whether consciously or not. In many ways, it's difficult to blame them. They went through the same schooling system. There are a great many people who are pushed to the ends of every waking day to pay bills, etc. What a fortunate boon for the school system to have clients in such dire circumstances. 

No argument there. I’m not totally dismissing that some parents are lazy or don’t want the responsibility. Like many topics, there isn’t a one-size-fits-all answer.
  • August West, Juthro and FLASHINGROOSTER like this

#9 Juthro

Juthro

    dope smoking hillbilly

  • OG VIP
  • 9,711 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 08 September 2021 - 07:41 PM

Forgive me for posting random clips, but I think it shows a piece of reality.  I've got family in the education industry, and I think this clip shows fairly accurately the nature of the education 'business', with some theatric license of course.  Public schools are cash cows for a lot of people, though the average educators are generally not included.

 

(IMHO)

 

 

[Direct Link]

 


  • Myc likes this

#10 Myc

Myc

    El Jardinero

  • App Administrator
  • 7,814 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 08 September 2021 - 09:41 PM

^^^That seems to be going around a lot - especially lately..........juking the stats, so to speak.

 

I believe that one of the goals of public education is to condition one to  follow - without question - edicts handed down from on-high.

As one might imagine, I had some of the shittiest "citizenship" evaluations. Yes, that was a score on our report cards - "citizenship". It was alleged to be related to one's ability to socialize and I always received dismal remarks in that category.

But, just like here, I had tons of friends - and no adversaries.

It was only the teachers who saw my "anti-social" tendencies. Everyone else just thought I was one of the kids. I took some serious beatings at home over bringing home poor citizenship scores - when all of my other grades were A's. 

To be fair though - I had some freakin' awesome teachers who inspired me to be the person that I am today.

I totally remember them too. Thank you Mr. Charles Flannigan for treating your students like human beings in development. I hope there is a special place in Heaven for folks like you.

 

I thank my lucky stars for being such a shitty citizen. I'm a much better countryman. And I'm really handy to have around when the shit hits the fan for a number of reasons.

 

Thank you Mycotopia for helping me to claim and posses my autonomy. You folks are some of the greatest teachers I've ever had. I place more value on what I've learned here than anything I could have bought from a university - no bullshit - no flowery praise. This place has been worth untold millions to me and my continued development.


  • Juthro likes this

#11 August West

August West

    Mycotopiate

  • OG VIP
  • 4,163 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 09 September 2021 - 12:20 AM

Sorry about this mistake. I clicked on my original post video and seems, for me at least, that only the first video in this series plays. I intended to post the 15 video "playlist" which, is of course, filled with more Gatto passages and a little more depth. Likely, many will not give a toss. For those that do and are inclined towards easy access...here is the video link, with 14 more brief videos to follow...

 

Oh dear. What a shit show. Apparently I don't understand how Youtube playlists work...or at least this one. In my own browser, it plays as an actual continuous playlist. The link from here stops after the first video. I will end this clusterfuck by just posting the 14 others in order that they were intended...which was sort of the initial point. This is probably a little bit of an asshole move so, my apologies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by August West, 09 September 2021 - 12:37 AM.

  • ElPirana and FLASHINGROOSTER like this

#12 August West

August West

    Mycotopiate

  • OG VIP
  • 4,163 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 09 September 2021 - 12:40 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 


  • ElPirana likes this

#13 August West

August West

    Mycotopiate

  • OG VIP
  • 4,163 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 09 September 2021 - 12:42 AM

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the hassle. Thanks for your attention.


Edited by August West, 09 September 2021 - 12:46 AM.

  • TVCasualty and ElPirana like this

#14 TVCasualty

TVCasualty

    Embrace Your Damage

  • Moderator
  • 14,786 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 09 September 2021 - 08:47 AM

Youtube School is now in session!

 

It appears that a playlist will not embed on this forum (I'm still an undergrad at YouTube U) but can be linked directly by going to the home page of the Channel the list was uploaded to and clicking on "Playlists" (then look for the one you're after if there are a bunch, like there were at the School Sucks Podcast Channel (they have 30 of 'em).

 

Link to playlist: https://www.youtube....uZe41o4fPfreV0O

 

 

One thing that happened that was pretty weird is that I was able to embed the playlist in my reply but it only shows up as a video in the Editor. I can play it just fine in the Editor window, but when I go to Preview Post it shows up as a bunch of BBC Code, which I'm guessing means that this forum doesn't support HTML5 yet:

 

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube....uZe41o4fPfreV0O" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Edited by TVCasualty, 09 September 2021 - 08:48 AM.

  • August West likes this

#15 ElPirana

ElPirana

    Mycotopiate

  • Gold VIP
  • 965 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 09 September 2021 - 09:51 AM

Thanks for posting those August, for some strange reason my damn phone wouldn’t even play the first one and I just searched it on YouTube directly instead. I’ll take a look at these others when I get a chance.

Edit: Those standardized tests...my kids are only in week # 3 and are already taking standardized tests. It’s just part of the curriculum these days.

Edited by ElPirana, 09 September 2021 - 09:54 AM.

  • August West likes this

#16 TVCasualty

TVCasualty

    Embrace Your Damage

  • Moderator
  • 14,786 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 09 September 2021 - 09:47 PM

Wal-Mart gets it.

 

backtoschool.jpg


  • Myc likes this

#17 FLASHINGROOSTER

FLASHINGROOSTER

    Semi-Pro Taco Robot

  • Black VIP
  • 3,027 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 10 September 2021 - 05:09 PM

Thinking about my own schooling and I realized it really can be as simple as one teacher that thinks outside the box. How they can start to unlock doors that one can walk through later in life

 

Our study on Russia was quite the eye opener. The first time I was shown that you can peel back all the main stream propaganda. A dubious task for the children of the west, considering the effects of Hollywood and in general the discourse around the mother of all bad guys


Edited by FLASHINGROOSTER, 10 September 2021 - 05:10 PM.


#18 Myc

Myc

    El Jardinero

  • App Administrator
  • 7,814 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 10 September 2021 - 09:52 PM

I'm thinking something about the fact that really old folks who have been in government for decades are running our democratic republic - as opposed to a sampling - of the people, for the people, and by the people.

At least, that is my take-away so as I've always been suspicious of education at the gut level. I just never had the words to define my concerns. Perhaps I'm just indulging in some confirmation bias because I was so damaged during my formative years in the great republic of TX. Where corporal punishment was always a threat - both at school and at home when it was discovered that some zealot had disciplined you at school. Get my drift??  It seems TX hasn't changed much but more accurately just morphed into some other judeo-x-tian justification for little more than a twisted version of sharia law.

 

I see that there is some degree of bias in the information presented as well. An ever-changing government would be radically strange to me - I can't imagine the possible rabbit holes presented by (essentially) turning over management structures arbitrarily based upon a timer and a term limit.

However the education system as detailed in the above articles would suggest a system of making one dependent upon such structures. - (e.g. you want experienced craftsmen building your structures - not new hires with high hopes but no experience.)

That construct requires guilds, unions, or whatever we're calling them these days.

And then we go down the rabbit-hole of exclusivity once again. No apprenticeship - no participation in the trade.

 

I have no fix or suggestions. We would be vulnerable to world enemies at every turnover of office due to the nature of foreign influence on our elections. Xenophobia is no longer an option for our society. So where do we go from here? Building walls and closing borders won't solve the cancer that is eating us from within.

 

 



#19 TVCasualty

TVCasualty

    Embrace Your Damage

  • Moderator
  • 14,786 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 11 September 2021 - 09:24 AM


That construct requires guilds, unions, or whatever we're calling them these days.

And then we go down the rabbit-hole of exclusivity once again. No apprenticeship - no participation in the trade.

 

 

Corruption seems to be the driving force of social evolution.

 

Whatever is created to address or reform corrupt social structures will eventually become corrupted as well since all social structures are made of the same thing (people).

 

The repeating "cycles" of history seem to mainly be cycles of institutional corruption among the various competing vested interests jockeying for political and social (and economic) dominance. I suppose history only appears cyclical because we're not very creative/imaginative when it comes to this stuff.

 

I guess that means there is no fix. Any attempt at fixing or reforming society becomes part of society and is therefore subject to (and actively attracts) corruption. "Rust never sleeps" applies to society as well as steel, and seems to be a similar kind of phenomenon. For example, the U.S. Supreme Court is arguably rusted out to the point where it needs serious restoration work ASAP to remain functional before our proverbial ship of state sinks.


Edited by TVCasualty, 11 September 2021 - 09:25 AM.


#20 Severian

Severian

    Mycotopiate

  • VIP
  • 431 posts

Posted 11 September 2021 - 10:18 AM

The problem ( in a tiny tiny nutshell) is that we've been taught to associate 'teachers' / teaching with learning. 

 

1. The cultural common consensus idea is that 'learning' is impossible without an external agent doing the teaching. (We have been conditioned to externalize our soverignty be it through learning and teachers, health and doctors, safety and police /military etc etc etc etc)

 

2. Knowledge is power( and power is dangerous-)....The very least expression of this being that information presented when a person is not ready for it can be an impediment to the development of proper understanding. 

 

3. Teachers are not focused on the development of a students understanding. Full stop. Because their instead focused on the transmission of certain content. Arbitrary 'Grades levels' / 'Classes' is not enough to ensure the homogenousness of the minds of the individual students. 

 

               3a. 'focus on a students growth/development' means,  'on a singular student'... Like, A one on one music instructor. Here the focus is not on the material specifically, but on whatever the student needs in that moment to grow- A dynamic model vs a static one....

 

There's a reason why the apprenticeship model has been the way knowledge/wisdom has been passed down since the beginning of time. 


Edited by Severian, 11 September 2021 - 10:20 AM.

  • Myc and August West like this




Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!